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[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They couldn't predict that attacking the seat of the chantry wouldn't make other andrastian countries to react?

It seems natural as an effect of that to me.

I know I said I'd leave this argument but,

the Dales were attacking a city (capitol city from what I understand) of someone they had been fighting for some time. That's what you do when you push that far into someone's territory and they refuse to surrender. You take out its seat of power.

It would have been against any other nation than Orlais. But the Elves, brilliant tactical minds that they are, forgot to think about religion and what power it holds. Any one with half a brain could have predicted that attacking Val Royaux would awaken the sleeping giant. It just seems like a classic case of hubris. The Dalish thought they were more powerful than they really were and paid the price.

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.

You don't think that Egypt or the Turks would ever had put 2 and 2 together and thought that if they ever laid siege to Rome that a crusade would be called down on their asses? It really is a no brainer.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.

That would just make them even more dumb. Don't say that dumb moves are intelligent because they didn't even have a basic grasp of human culture.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.

That would just make them even more dumb. Don't say that dumb moves are intelligent because they didn't even have a basic grasp of human culture.

The same way you'll agree the Templars are borderline retarded for not having a basic grasp of the Fade.

How is that even comparable? If they were invading the fade and lived in it's physical presence, I'd agree that they'd have to be retarded not to learn about it.

[Reaverwind]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it you're not well aware of human history and the fall of a multitude of religions since mankind's inception on this planet. Many religions have collapsed over time. Ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome worshipped a myraid of deities, from the sun god Ra to the Father of Gods and Men called Zeus. In the realm of DA:O, the Chantry had taken the place of old religions that worshipped the gods, including the Old Gods. Even the invading Qunari were able to convert many members of the Chantry to the Qun during their occupation.

You fail to recall that a number of those religions were tied to a specific civilization and therefore disappeared when those civilizations did. Others collapsed when their supporters converted - as occurred in the DA unviverse. That's an entirely different animal than the mages attempting to crush the Chantry to institute reform - which is guaranteed to backfire.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

So it being their job to police mages and ward against abominations doesn't mandate having some passing familiarity with the Fade?

1. Don't they know about the fade?
2. They can't enter it while awake (except when being pulled in), first hand knowledge would be a jiffy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

So it being their job to police mages and ward against abominations doesn't mandate having some passing familiarity with the Fade?

1. Don't they know about the fade?
2. They can't enter it while awake (except when being pulled in), first hand knowledge would be a jiffy.

1)Templars you encounter in Ostagar aren't even sure if the Fade is real. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record.)
2)They don't need first hand knowledge. Dagna proved that even if you can't practice magic you can still understand how it works and even add to the body of knowledge.

1) I've given you a posibility to why it is they don't know wether or not the fade is real.
2) Doesn't Dagna only add to the circles knowledge of Lyrium? As I recall the book she authors is about lyrium and how it affects spellcasting, or something to that effect at least. Nothing about adding knowlege about the fade. And why is it that the Templars need to know how the Fade works? All they need to know about is how to counter magic, demons and abominations when they are in the material world, how they work in the fade is useless to them.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

1)Templars you encounter in Ostagar aren't even sure if the Fade is real. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record.)
2)They don't need first hand knowledge. Dagna proved that even if you can't practice magic you can still understand how it works and even add to the body of knowledge.

So, I'm giving up on you soon, how does other people being dumb make elves smart? I don't care about whether templars are smart in this case. It holds no relevance.

This is about the elves, and how they'd have to blind deaf and dumb not to know about the chantry while invading a country where they exist, especially the one where the seat of the chantry is, when it was due to the chantry not leaving them alone in trying to convert them.

Your whole premise is dumb and if true it would only act to make the elves seem infinitely more arrogant, and dumb.

[Reaverwind]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

So it being their job to police mages and ward against abominations doesn't mandate having some passing familiarity with the Fade?

1. Don't they know about the fade?
2. They can't enter it while awake (except when being pulled in), first hand knowledge would be a jiffy.

1)Templars you encounter in Ostagar aren't even sure if the Fade is real. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record.)
2)They don't need first hand knowledge. Dagna proved that even if you can't practice magic you can still understand how it works and even add to the body of knowledge.

I consider the conversation with the Templars in Ostagar inconsistent writing. Considering that Circle Templars (which they'd have to be) stand over Harrowings, they can hardly be ignorant of the Fade (and its demon inhabitants).

[ShrinkingFish]

Someone needs to lock this thread already... This discussion is just ridiculous.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I just went through the Ostagar part to double check, and the Templar does NOT deny the existence of the Fade, he only expresses doubt that it is the land of the dead and dreams. Doubts which are proven to be correct in the first case.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The lines are:



Templar: "The mages must not be interrupted. Their spirits are in the Fade."

Warden: "The Fade?"

Templar: "The Fade is the Realm of Dreams and Land of the Dead, or so the mages tell us. Regardless the mages are not to be disturbed not even by Grey Wardens."



The Templar doesn't doubt the Fade exists only what it really is.

[ShrinkingFish]

MariSkep wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Someone needs to lock this thread already... This discussion is just ridiculous.

Then please add to it and raise the level of maturity. It might get it somewhere.

I have tried a few times but it just keeps reverting to nonesense within another page or two.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

They couldn't predict that attacking the seat of the chantry wouldn't make other andrastian countries to react?

It seems natural as an effect of that to me.
[/quote]

I know I said I'd leave this argument but,

the Dales were attacking a city (capitol city from what I understand) of someone they had been fighting for some time. That's what you do when you push that far into someone's territory and they refuse to surrender. You take out its seat of power.
[/quote]
It would have been against any other nation than Orlais. But the Elves, brilliant tactical minds that they are, forgot to think about religion and what power it holds. Any one with half a brain could have predicted that attacking Val Royaux would awaken the sleeping giant. It just seems like a classic case of hubris. The Dalish thought they were more powerful than they really were and paid the price.[/quote]

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.
[/quote]
You don't think that Egypt or the Turks would ever had put 2 and 2 together and thought that if they ever laid siege to Rome that a crusade would be called down on their asses? It really is a no brainer.[/quote]

Except the Dalish purposefully isolated themselves from humanity for some time. They made an effort not to trade and not to participate in human events to regain their culture and their immortality. Entirely different situation.
[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.
[/quote]

That would just make them even more dumb. Don't say that dumb moves are intelligent because they didn't even have a basic grasp of human culture.[/quote]

It makes them dumb that they know nothing about humanity as a result of isolating themselves in the Dales, in an attempt to regain the glory of Elvhenan?
[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain would be able to predict a Crusade called for attacking the capitol of a nation you're at war with. Especially if that anyone happened to be from an entirely different culture.
[/quote]

That would just make them even more dumb. Don't say that dumb moves are intelligent because they didn't even have a basic grasp of human culture.[/quote]

The same way you'll agree the Templars are borderline retarded for not having a basic grasp of the Fade.
[/quote]

How is that even comparable? If they were invading the fade and lived in it's physical presence, I'd agree that they'd have to be retarded not to learn about it.
[/quote]

Given their duty to preside over the mages? It think it's important.
[quote]Reaverwind wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it you're not well aware of human history and the fall of a multitude of religions since mankind's inception on this planet. Many religions have collapsed over time. Ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome worshipped a myraid of deities, from the sun god Ra to the Father of Gods and Men called Zeus. In the realm of DA:O, the Chantry had taken the place of old religions that worshipped the gods, including the Old Gods. Even the invading Qunari were able to convert many members of the Chantry to the Qun during their occupation.[/quote]

You fail to recall that a number of those religions were tied to a specific civilization and therefore disappeared when those civilizations did. Others collapsed when their supporters converted - as occurred in the DA unviverse. That's an entirely different animal than the mages attempting to crush the Chantry to institute reform - which is guaranteed to backfire.[/quote]

Some coverted, others fell. I still don't see why you think that a mages revolution couldn't overthrow the Chantry and dismantle their plan to control all of Thedas. It wouldn't be the first time that a small group defeated a large army. Haiti was able to defeat Napoleon and gain its independence and free the slaves. Cuban rebels defeated Batista and his U.S. backed army. And if the mages revolution takes out the Chantry, then Orlais will fall. Mages have been used to win the Chantry's war against the advanced technology of the Qunari. There's no reason why the mages couldn't insurrect against the Chantry and gain independence from the Chantry by defeating them the same way the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even the fact that they isolate themselves from the rest of the world reeks of stupidity. That they not only isolate themselves but also apparently erase all memory and history records of what makes humans tick just makes them even stupider. No matter how you put it. No matter how you try and spin it. Moving against Val Royaux was stupid.



And I think we established that the Templars actually do acknowledge the existence of the Fade, they are just skeptic about it being the Land of the Dead, which they are right to be, cause it isn't.



A Mage revolution would result in one thing and one thing only: The destruction of all mages everywhere. There are what? A few hundred mages per tower and only a few dozen towers at most. And just how many supporters are there of the Chantry? Hundred of thousands perhaps even millions, and now I'm not even counting the mages who also follow the chantry and believe in what the chantry does. A mage revolution would be a bad thing for mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even the fact that they isolate themselves from the rest of the world reeks of stupidity. That they not only isolate themselves but also apparently erase all memory and history records of what makes humans tick just makes them even stupider. No matter how you put it. No matter how you try and spin it. Moving against Val Royaux was stupid.

And I think we established that the Templars actually do acknowledge the existence of the Fade, they are just skeptic about it being the Land of the Dead, which they are right to be, cause it isn't.

A Mage revolution would result in one thing and one thing only: The destruction of all mages everywhere. There are what? A few hundred mages per tower and only a few dozen towers at most. And just how many supporters are there of the Chantry? Hundred of thousands perhaps even millions, and now I'm not even counting the mages who also follow the chantry and believe in what the chantry does. A mage revolution would be a bad thing for mages.

You are determined to view everything the Chantry does as right and everything its detractors do 'wrong.' There's really no reason to continue.

You are just as dead set as seeing everyhting the do as wrong. However, I do not really care about the Chantry, I think they do good work though. I believe what the Templars do is right though, and very much needed, the Templars just happens to be part of the Chantry.
So far no one has come with anything to give me a concrete piece of evidence to dislike the Templars or the Chantry as organizations, only to dislike indiviuals within them. On the contrary with mages, I find reason to like individuals but I dislike mages as a whole. Elves I jsut generally dislike because of their butthurtness about their own mistakes. They really should just roll over present their bellies and die with dignity.... (As a culture, the city elves can stay)