1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some coverted, others fell. I still don't see why you think that a mages revolution couldn't overthrow the Chantry and dismantle their plan to control all of Thedas. It wouldn't be the first time that a small group defeated a large army. Haiti was able to defeat Napoleon and gain its independence and free the slaves. Cuban rebels defeated Batista and his U.S. backed army. And if the mages revolution takes out the Chantry, then Orlais will fall. Mages have been used to win the Chantry's war against the advanced technology of the Qunari. There's no reason why the mages couldn't insurrect against the Chantry and gain independence from the Chantry by defeating them the same way the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

Haiti was an island nation seperated by an ocean from the mainland, as was Cuba. Their revolutions had grassroots support, not to mention logistics was on their side. The mages are minorities in their countries without any grassroots support whatsoever, not to mention are divided amongst themselves. They don't stand a chance - the Chantry need only start the propaganda engine rolling and people would start lining up for a good old-fashioned witch hunt. Torches and pitchforks optional.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Reaverwind]

MariSkep wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some coverted, others fell. I still don't see why you think that a mages revolution couldn't overthrow the Chantry and dismantle their plan to control all of Thedas. It wouldn't be the first time that a small group defeated a large army. Haiti was able to defeat Napoleon and gain its independence and free the slaves. Cuban rebels defeated Batista and his U.S. backed army. And if the mages revolution takes out the Chantry, then Orlais will fall. Mages have been used to win the Chantry's war against the advanced technology of the Qunari. There's no reason why the mages couldn't insurrect against the Chantry and gain independence from the Chantry by defeating them the same way the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

Haiti was an island nation seperated by an ocean from the mainland, as was Cuba. Their revolutions had grassroots support, not to mention logistics was on their side. The mages are minorities in their countries without any grassroots support whatsoever, not to mention are divided amongst themselves. They don't stand a chance - the Chantry need only start the propaganda engine rolling and people would start lining up for a good old-fashioned witch hunt. Torches and pitchforks optional.

Don't I know it. Spend any amount of time listening to the ambient dialog in the background or asking npcs their views on magic and it becomes pretty obvious mages are about as well liked as a plague. And usually blamed for it too.

Yup - I didn't miss the gossips mentioning how the templars should just wipe out the Tower.

[Morroian]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So far no one has come with anything to give me a concrete piece of evidence to dislike the Templars or the Chantry as organizations, only to dislike indiviuals within them. On the contrary with mages, I find reason to like individuals but I dislike mages as a whole.

Why?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even the fact that they isolate themselves from the rest of the world reeks of stupidity. That they not only isolate themselves but also apparently erase all memory and history records of what makes humans tick just makes them even stupider. No matter how you put it. No matter how you try and spin it. Moving against Val Royaux was stupid.

Considering that the last time they got involved with humans it ended in slavery...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even the fact that they isolate themselves from the rest of the world reeks of stupidity. That they not only isolate themselves but also apparently erase all memory and history records of what makes humans tick just makes them even stupider. No matter how you put it. No matter how you try and spin it. Moving against Val Royaux was stupid.

And I think we established that the Templars actually do acknowledge the existence of the Fade, they are just skeptic about it being the Land of the Dead, which they are right to be, cause it isn't.

A Mage revolution would result in one thing and one thing only: The destruction of all mages everywhere. There are what? A few hundred mages per tower and only a few dozen towers at most. And just how many supporters are there of the Chantry? Hundred of thousands perhaps even millions, and now I'm not even counting the mages who also follow the chantry and believe in what the chantry does. A mage revolution would be a bad thing for mages.

You are determined to view everything the Chantry does as right and everything its detractors do 'wrong.' There's really no reason to continue.

You are just as dead set as seeing everyhting the do as wrong. However, I do not really care about the Chantry, I think they do good work though. I believe what the Templars do is right though, and very much needed, the Templars just happens to be part of the Chantry.
So far no one has come with anything to give me a concrete piece of evidence to dislike the Templars or the Chantry as organizations, only to dislike indiviuals within them. On the contrary with mages, I find reason to like individuals but I dislike mages as a whole. Elves I jsut generally dislike because of their butthurtness about their own mistakes. They really should just roll over present their bellies and die with dignity.... (As a culture, the city elves can stay)

Good work = getting addicted to lyrium, killing people because they are mages, and letting the Warden solve the Uldred revolt because they couldn't handle the abominations themselves...

Elves mistakes = their homeland pillaged and their religion outlawed by the Chantry.

Reaverwind wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some coverted, others fell. I still don't see why you think that a mages revolution couldn't overthrow the Chantry and dismantle their plan to control all of Thedas. It wouldn't be the first time that a small group defeated a large army. Haiti was able to defeat Napoleon and gain its independence and free the slaves. Cuban rebels defeated Batista and his U.S. backed army. And if the mages revolution takes out the Chantry, then Orlais will fall. Mages have been used to win the Chantry's war against the advanced technology of the Qunari. There's no reason why the mages couldn't insurrect against the Chantry and gain independence from the Chantry by defeating them the same way the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

Haiti was an island nation seperated by an ocean from the mainland, as was Cuba. Their revolutions had grassroots support, not to mention logistics was on their side. The mages are minorities in their countries without any grassroots support whatsoever, not to mention are divided amongst themselves. They don't stand a chance - the Chantry need only start the propaganda engine rolling and people would start lining up for a good old-fashioned witch hunt. Torches and pitchforks optional.

They don't stand a chance? Who do you think the Chantry turns to when they need to win against the Qunari's advanced technology? Mages. Duncan mentions that mages are incredible fighters against the darkpsawn armies. Mages have incredible powers, and if an army of them were lead by a competent leader against the Chantry, I see no reason why they couldn't win. And I'm pretty sure the good old fashioned witch hunt = bigoted idiots who don't stand a chance against an army of mages.

Morroian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So far no one has come with anything to give me a concrete piece of evidence to dislike the Templars or the Chantry as organizations, only to dislike indiviuals within them. On the contrary with mages, I find reason to like individuals but I dislike mages as a whole.

Why?

He apparently hates the elves for being nearly wiped out by the Chantry and he likes the templars - the armored and armed drug addicts watching over mages.

[atheelogos]

down with the zealots

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maybe they could have changed something, maybe not. The Chantry has
immense political influence throughout Thedas and Orlais is its center
of power. It's very important for rulers and nobles to be in good
standing with the Chantry - or at least appear to be. They run many
essential civil services and thus have the power to shut down entire countires, if they wished. They have huge leverage over the mage circles, as well.

They
have plenty of tools, if they wanted to do the right thing instead of
the safe one. However, not only did they not try to oppose the war and
occupation, apparently they outright supported it.

You seem to
have shifted your argument here, from saying that it's all right to
cheerlead war (which will bring rape, pillage and suffering with it)
against Ferelden merely for not being "civilized enough", to saying
that the Chantry was against it, but simply had no power to stop it.

No. You're overestimating it's influence and power.

Kings and generals have more power/influence over their men than the church, yet not even they can stop the rape and killing completely. Name any war in history that happened, and I can name you attrocities commited by either side, regardless of how much effort was put into avoiding them.

And no, I'm not saying war is OK, I'm saying that SOME people may think that.

The Chantry has been responsible for the deaths of mages for over 700 years (the length of time that the Rites have been used).

Yes, they have. And those death was sadly necessary. And lets not forget that the Chantry has ALSO been saving mages for over 700 years and educating them.

And my point is the Chantry took any means of developing medical
treatment for the poor and hurled it out the window placing medicine
and healing at the feet of only the affluent members of society.
They've also taken their most effective weapon against the well armored
and technologically superior Qunari and locked them up in a prettied up
prison.

How so? We see people making healing polutices, that's herbalism. Tehre's also various salves and other stuff, that the Cahtnry doesn't forbid in any way.
Also, kepping your nukes in a safe, contained place? Yes, shocking!

why do you think studying anatomy and corpses wouldn't provide any benefit to medical knowledge?

Given the existance of powerfull healing magic and potions, studying corpses wouldn't have the benefit it has in RL. Also, demons like to posses corpses, so burning them is the default way of dealing with your dead.

Otto seems to have the Leroy Jenkins approach to handeling rage demons.

His death is powered by cutscene power. He seemed quite capable and had his wits about him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
They declined a life of subjegation? Hardly surprising. I doubt that the templars give people much choice. I've heard that the templars also hunt down the Dalish Keepers, which is part of the reason why they're nomadic. According to the codex for a Dalish Warden, the Chantry used templars to force the Dalish to convert:

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

That entry is written from a Dalish POV. Acording to the Chantry, the Dalish attacked and murdered missionaries.
Because clearly, being a missionary is the ultimate evil! If this is true, then the Cahtnry was fully justified in sending templars to protect the missionaries.

You've read an interesting version of history then as the greatest
moments of great change to dominant and oppressive social structures
have always been through radical revolution of some form or another.

And these revolutions were always bloody and devastating.

And,as I said last time this argument came up, I'm willing to hurt
even the people I'm trying to help if there's a payoff at the end of
the tunnel. Am I worried about turning into a paranoid tyrant or
failing everyone, yes. But if it's something that needs to be done,
someone has to at least try.

Ironicly, the Chantry follows the same mindset.
Mages are hurt, but there's a payoff at the end of he tunell (security and order for the common folk).
It needs to be done.

As opposed to the bodies and blood that would be shed waiting for some
kind of reform? Does the immediacy of the death toll make it more 'bad?'

Given the numberical differences betwen amges and regular folk, yet, the body coutn would be very different. Tehre are few mages and they have a great capacity for destruction.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

Bottom point. Mages are a severe minority. A very dangerous severe minority. How would them winning a revolution and getting power help the common masses? It wouldn't.
I really can't see it happening - mages alone are too few in numbers to carry out any sucesfull revolution.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Newnation wrote...

SirEmilCrane wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks the chantry does good work?

I think everyone is biased against them BECAUSE RELIGION IS EBIL!!!11!!!
Blood magic is evil, and possession is a very real threat, we need a regulatory body over magic.

Then shouldn't the mages be allowed to do that themselves?

No. Because any mage can become an abomination (without mutating), so the mage that leads the Circle can very well be an abomination.

People who can be possesed regulating other that can be possesed. Do you see the banality of this idea?

The events in Origins show that that abominations tend to happen as a
result of the Chantry - Uldred becomes an abomination through his
knowledge of demonology during a revolution to free the mages, and
Isolde's tragedy with Connor transpired because she didn't want to lose
her son to the Circle, so how do the events in Origins justify the
oppression of the mages? The Chantry oversight practically forces mages
to become blood mages and abominations in an attempt to survive against
the templars.

Bollocks. If the Chantry didn't exist, some other institution would, and it would do the same thing. The methods in place are the product of the nature of magic and mages.
Mages MUST be contained. They MUST be controlled.
Abominations happen s a result of stupid/weak mages. Period.

Or in the case of Isolde, stupid people.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

Oh yes, Lotion is back to regal us with his ever so enlightened views on why crimes should never be reported or any effort made to curb humanity's baser instincts.

And here you go again. As soon as you can't argue or realize you've lost a point you start mudslinging. Honestly I had come to expect better. If you can't come up with any actual valid points then admit you've lost or just stay silent (still a defeat though).

[Lumikki]

MariSkep wrote...

I'm not going to give someone who thinks acts of institutionalized violence committed by police and military figures is acceptable or even flirts with telling me you need a god's approval to be moral the time of day. 

It's not about accepting violence agaist someones. It's about understanding that why things are the way why they are and then try to find better solution. Not about screeming to everyone that some people are murderers and then askining join to your own cause, so you can can kill them all. It doesn't make you any better than them. You can't hide behind words like what's wrong and right and when you self do the wrong thing. Urge others to start revolution, because you  own view point of right or wrong, doesn't make it right.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Morroian]

Lumikki wrote...
It's not about accepting violence agaist someones. It's about understanding that why things are the way why they are and then try to find better solution.

The pro chantry people on this thread are trying to find a solution? To what? They seem to think the current situation is fine as is, especially suntan lotion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

Oh yes, Lotion is back to regal us with his ever so enlightened views on why crimes should never be reported or any effort made to curb humanity's baser instincts.

You're denser than uranium, you know that?

Who the hell said crimes should not be reported? Who the hell said crimes are OK? I have no idea what you're smoking, but you better quit.

Corruption, misuse of power and crime CANNOT be fully stopped by anyone. The bigger the organization, the harder to stop it.
Report a crime? Sure, if there's someone there to report it in the first place. Or do you think the squad of douches that raped/killed a civilian will go in an report itself?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morroian wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
It's not about accepting violence agaist someones. It's about understanding that why things are the way why they are and then try to find better solution.

The pro chantry people on this thread are trying to find a solution? To what? They seem to think the current situation is fine as is, especially suntan lotion.

The current situation? Considering how the world of Thedas is, it's pretty much OK. (from a pragmatic standpoint)
There's place for improvement, tough. There pretty much always is.

[Lumikki]

Morroian wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
It's not about accepting violence agaist someones. It's about understanding that why things are the way why they are and then try to find better solution.

The pro chantry people on this thread are trying to find a solution? To what? They seem to think the current situation is fine as is, especially suntan lotion.

No, not really, it's not "pro chantry" thinking curret situation is fine as it is, it's you who think that "pro chantry" thinks that way. There's difference there, as making assumption what others think. Just because "pro chantry" does not supporting some extreme violent solutions to solve some problems, isn't same as been happy with current situation. I think they just say current situation isn't as bad some may it looks. Sure, there are problems what needs fixing as improvements, but violence is never the best solution, it's the last possibility when all other solution has failed.

I used "pro chantry" this way, because not everyting is allways so black and white as everyone has to be one side or other.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 septembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Mykel54]

I prefer the current situation rather than:

1) mages roaming free with license to do whatever they please

2) mages being pursued and having to hide to survive



In my opinion mages need something to keep them in check, that´s what templars do, keep the mages from abusing their powers ("magic exist to serve man not to rule over him") and protect the non-mages. If you were a incredibly powerful mage you would think that you are better than the rest poor non-mages, and therefore you should rule over them, that was the basic of the archons of tevinter.



The templars allow the mages to practice their art and be useful to society, i see no wrong in it. In fact what the qunari do to their mages is more harsh, but still effective at keeping the mages in check. While the chantry does it the hard way and don´t take the easy route like the qunari, and people still think they are monsters because they don´t let mages do whatever they please. I guess than most mage apologists then want some kind of kingdom ruled by mages that control the rest of people, because that is what would happen if you let mages free reigns to use their powers as they wish.

[Fang470]

There are plenty of apostate mages scattered around the wilderness and yet abominations are rare and the chantry and templars were the reason for uldred going the evil abomination route and as for conner he made contact with the demon to save his father a circumstance rather rare i would expect



My verdict burn, kill, impale the templars and leave the chantry alone and set up elite group of templars not to imprison but to hunt abominations and blood mages that used blood magics on the unwilling

[Chris Readman]

Okay then, people who are fine with the status quo, how would you improve on the parts that need improvement? I know there was mention by both Lumikki and Lotion Soronnar about giving the mages slightly more freedom, but obviously not complete freedom. Any other specifics you'd like to add?

Also, consider this scenario in DAII; your sister is an apostate and has been raised outside the tower her whole life, and it is unlikely she will be willing to change her mind anytime soon. How will you handle this situation in this world where your character is defined as such?

And another thing to note is the hinting of a war between the templars and Flemeth's forces, whatever they are. Whoever you choose to side in this scenario, there'd most likely be huge losses to the templars' side. Will they be able to handle their current job with severely thinned numbers?

[Herr Uhl]

Chris Readman wrote...

And another thing to note is the hinting of a war between the templars and Flemeth's forces, whatever they are. Whoever you choose to side in this scenario, there'd most likely be huge losses to the templars' side. Will they be able to handle their current job with severely thinned numbers?

This assumes that the body-count of templars is larger than the one of the mages, relatively speaking. If there dies more mages than templars (compared to their current numbers) that wouldn't be a problem.

[DMC12]

Chris Readman wrote...

Okay then, people who are fine with the status quo, how would you improve on the parts that need improvement? I know there was mention by both Lumikki and Lotion Soronnar about giving the mages slightly more freedom, but obviously not complete freedom. Any other specifics you'd like to add?

As someone who views the restrictions imposed upon the mages as necessary, but also needs to be reformed... I'd say keep the tracker blood vials, keep restricting them from holding positions of power, and keep them in the towers until they reach a certain age and/or received some sort of diploma or certification of their abilities. Maybe some type of psych evaluation as well or loyalty test (don't think they study psychology in DA though). "Free" mages will also need special clearance to travel and will have to report every so often to a Templar "parole" officer. Otherwise, they are free to have have families, but must send any children with magical abilities to the tower for training.

Also, consider this scenario in DAII; your sister is an apostate and has been raised outside the tower her whole life, and it is unlikely she will be willing to change her mind anytime soon. How will you handle this situation in this world where your character is defined as such?

Depends on the events. If I can, maybe I'll play through like how I view the situation from the outside (see above). But so far, I'd probably play as more sympathetic to the mages than I actually am in order to portray my vision of Hawke better from an in-game perspective, and to maybe cause chaos for a more interesting story. It also depends on Hawke's sister's character and her views.

And another thing to note is the hinting of a war between the templars and Flemeth's forces, whatever they are. Whoever you choose to side in this scenario, there'd most likely be huge losses to the templars' side. Will they be able to handle their current job with severely thinned numbers?

That probably depends on your level of involvement. Maybe you'll need to do complete certain objectives for one or both of the sides, like arming the Templars, getting lyrium supplies for the mages, exposing a weak point in the enemy's formation. Similar to upgrading the Keep in Awakening. So given that, if one helps out the Templars very well, maybe they'll utterly wipe out the mages with few casualties. Or if one helps out the mages, maybe they'll completely destroy the Templar army.

Modifié par DMC12, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fang470 wrote...

There are plenty of apostate mages scattered around the wilderness and yet abominations are rare and the chantry and templars were the reason for uldred going the evil abomination route and as for conner he made contact with the demon to save his father a circumstance rather rare i would expect

And you don't think the reason abominations are rare is because Apostates are rare (at least compared to real mages) and that all the real mages are confined at the tower where they recieve proper training to resist possession?

And no it is not a rare circumstance at all. People lose loved ones all the time. The impact this can have on a mage is hard to predict, some may cry and then move on, others may try blood magic to preserve their loved one or even worse, start associating with demons, like Conner.
Some mages may be able to handle loss, and these few mages may even be granted permission to marry. Just not to keep their children. For everyones safety.

[Chris Readman]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

And another thing to note is the hinting of a war between the templars and Flemeth's forces, whatever they are. Whoever you choose to side in this scenario, there'd most likely be huge losses to the templars' side. Will they be able to handle their current job with severely thinned numbers?

This assumes that the body-count of templars is larger than the one of the mages, relatively speaking. If there dies more mages than templars (compared to their current numbers) that wouldn't be a problem.

Well yeah, but do keep in mind that people of power who have important knowledge on how to run the organisation can be affected too. Also, Flemeth's forces might not consist of all the mages in Fereldan or wherever, it may be her own secret army that she's kept away from Chantry eyes. It is very possible that these mages are powerful if they have studied under Flemeth.

Keeping all this in mind, templars are highly likely to receive a huge blow, while mages who are kept in mage towers might not even be affected that much. What then? Of course, keep in mind that this is just conjecture on my part.