1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Maferath]

If there really is an option to make the institution fall down during the course of the game... the Chantry shall burn in every single of my playthroughs.

[Chris Readman]

DMC12 wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

Okay then, people who are fine with the status quo, how would you improve on the parts that need improvement? I know there was mention by both Lumikki and Lotion Soronnar about giving the mages slightly more freedom, but obviously not complete freedom. Any other specifics you'd like to add?

As someone who views the restrictions imposed upon the mages as necessary, but also needs to be reformed... I'd say keep the tracker blood vials, keep restricting them from holding positions of power, and keep them in the towers until they reach a certain age and/or received some sort of diploma or certification of their abilities. Maybe some type of psych evaluation as well or loyalty test (don't think they study psychology in DA though). "Free" mages will also need special clearance to travel and will have to report every so often to a Templar "parole" officer. Otherwise, they are free to have have families, but must send any children with magical abilities to the tower for training.

Also, consider this scenario in DAII; your sister is an apostate and has been raised outside the tower her whole life, and it is unlikely she will be willing to change her mind anytime soon. How will you handle this situation in this world where your character is defined as such?

Depends on the events. If I can, maybe I'll play through like how I view the situation from the outside (see above). But so far, I'd probably play as more sympathetic to the mages than I actually am in order to portray my vision of Hawke better from an in-game perspective, and to maybe cause chaos for a more interesting story. It also depends on Hawke's sister's character and her views.

Thanks for the well thought out reply. See this part is my personal focus in this whole argument on the Chantry vs mages issue. The story of DAII pretty much casts you into a role that would be more likely to be sympathetic to apostate mages, simply because you are related to at least one of them. This might be just a small part of the story, but I find it highly unlikely that one would choose to side the templars, given Hawke's established relation to an apostate. It is still possible, but probably uncharacteristic, or just for people completely detached from the idea of family.

Also, your ideas are quite on track with what I had in mind, although I probably failed to express it as precisely or thought out the specific policies. What do the anti-mage/pro-Chantry have to say about this? Sounds like it frees up the possibility of mages serving the people as the Chant of Light decrees, as opposed to just practicing magic in their ivory towers.

Modifié par Chris Readman, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[DMC12]

Chris Readman wrote...


Thanks for the well thought out reply. See this part is my personal focus in this whole argument on the Chantry vs mages issue. The story of DAII pretty much casts you into a role that would be more likely to be sympathetic to apostate mages, simply because you are related to at least one of them. This might be just a small part of the story, but I find it highly unlikely that one would choose to side the templars, given Hawke's established relation to an apostate. It is still possible, but probably uncharacteristic, or just for people completely detached from the idea of family.

The only way I can see a "realistic" Hawke supporting the Templars over Flemeth's mage army, is if it's a case of the lesser of two evils. While I see choosing either the Templars or the mages as a highly probable plot event, I would also like a third, harder choice of choosing Hawke over both. Kind of like in KOTOR where you can sabotage both the warring Sith leaders on Korriban, then take them both on by yourself. Only DA2 would be on a much larger, more epic scale. It may not be the most logical decision to some, but it'd certainly be the most bad*** option.

Also, your ideas are quite on track with what I had in mind, although I probably failed to express it as precisely or thought out the specific policies. What do the anti-mage/pro-Chantry have to say about this? Sounds like it frees up the possibility of mages serving the people as the Chant of Light decrees, as opposed to just practicing magic in their ivory towers.

That brings up a good point, as I'm almost positive that Andraste was a truly noble person, only her teachings were corrupted as the Chantry came to power. From the ghost riddlers you talked to in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, I'd say that Chantry definitely ignored a lot of its core beliefs. I'm interested if we'll learn more of this.

But again, for clarification, my point of view is that the Chantry needs reformation, not total destruction. It's too powerful of an institution, both spiritually and in terms of sovereignty, to be cast aside... Then again, that's a logical and outside point of view. If the player is given a major choice with the fate of the Chantry, I'd say give them salvation or damnation, whatever is more entertaining.

Modifié par DMC12, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...
The Chantry has been responsible for the deaths of mages for over 700 years (the length of time that the Rites have been used).

Yes, they have. And those death was sadly necessary. And lets not forget that the Chantry has ALSO been saving mages for over 700 years and educating them.

How were they necessary? Men, women, and children are murdered to keep the Chantry's power intact. And how has the Chantry saved the mages? All they do is force the mages under templar rule, using them as soldiers against the Qunari or turning them into slaves to craft runes.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
They declined a life of subjegation? Hardly surprising. I doubt that the templars give people much choice. I've heard that the templars also hunt down the Dalish Keepers, which is part of the reason why they're nomadic. According to the codex for a Dalish Warden, the Chantry used templars to force the Dalish to convert:

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

That entry is written from a Dalish POV. Acording to the Chantry, the Dalish attacked and murdered missionaries.
Because clearly, being a missionary is the ultimate evil! If this is true, then the Cahtnry was fully justified in sending templars to protect the missionaries.

Except it's mentioned that the Dalish refused humans entry into the Dales - including merchants, placing Emerald Knights at the borders. It seems that the templars were sent to force the Dalish to submit to the Chantry the same way the Chantry declared war against Tevinter when they refused to worship Andraste as the Bride of the Maker and instead saw her as a mortal woman. The Divine even contemplates an Exalted March on Orzammar if they crack down on worship of Andraste of the Chant in the Deep quest is completed.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ironicly, the Chantry follows the same mindset.
Mages are hurt, but there's a payoff at the end of he tunell (security and order for the common folk).
It needs to be done.

No, the Chantry wants power. They use mages as soldiers and rune crafting slaves.

Lumikki wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
It's not about accepting violence agaist someones. It's about understanding that why things are the way why they are and then try to find better solution.

The pro chantry people on this thread are trying to find a solution? To what? They seem to think the current situation is fine as is, especially suntan lotion.

No, not really, it's not "pro chantry" thinking curret situation is fine as it is, it's you who think that "pro chantry" thinks that way. There's difference there, as making assumption what others think. Just because "pro chantry" does not supporting some extreme violent solutions to solve some problems, isn't same as been happy with current situation. I think they just say current situation isn't as bad some may it looks. Sure, there are problems what needs fixing as improvements, but violence is never the best solution, it's the last possibility when all other solution has failed.

I used "pro chantry" this way, because not everyting is allways so black and white as everyone has to be one side or other.

It is pro-Chantry when people are actively supporting their actions of murdering people, imprisoning mages for having magical ability, taking away the children from mothers because they're mages, templars going into the Dales to force the elves to convert to the Chantry of Andraste, and excuse that behavior. The actions of those in the Chantry showcases an institution that is looking to secure power in the name of religion throughout all of Thedas. Some of us think that the Chantry should be stopped; others have no issue with the Chantry or think that there should be reform, and some like Lotion Soronnar  actively support the abusive behavior of the Chantry and its silent support of chevalier rape, elven murder, and going to war with people who refuse to worship the Maker and Andraste.

Mykel54 wrote...

I prefer the current situation rather than:
1) mages roaming free with license to do whatever they please
2) mages being pursued and having to hide to survive

In my opinion mages need something to keep them in check, that´s what templars do, keep the mages from abusing their powers ("magic exist to serve man not to rule over him") and protect the non-mages. If you were a incredibly powerful mage you would think that you are better than the rest poor non-mages, and therefore you should rule over them, that was the basic of the archons of tevinter.

The templars allow the mages to practice their art and be useful to society, i see no wrong in it. In fact what the qunari do to their mages is more harsh, but still effective at keeping the mages in check. While the chantry does it the hard way and don´t take the easy route like the qunari, and people still think they are monsters because they don´t let mages do whatever they please. I guess than most mage apologists then want some kind of kingdom ruled by mages that control the rest of people, because that is what would happen if you let mages free reigns to use their powers as they wish.

No one better to watch over men, women, and children than armed and armored drug addicts...

[Sir JK]

The Divine even contemplates an Exalted March on Orzammar if they crack down on worship of Andraste of the Chant in the Deep quest is completed...

Wait... Brother Burkel gets murdered and his congregation (who all converted out of their free will) persecuted... you're saying the chantry is unreasonable for trying to defend it's members?



In the same way... I'd advise against using the exalted march on the dales as a argument. None of us knows exactly what started it and what happened during it. For all we know the elves could have been worse and that the chantry called the exalted march as a last line of defence. Until we get some sort of clarification to what exactly transpired it cannot support either position.

[Fang470]

LobselVith8 wrote

no one better to watch over men, women, and children than armed and armored drug addicts...



you sir are made of win

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith66...

The Divine even contemplates an Exalted March on Orzammar if they crack down on worship of Andraste of the Chant in the Deep quest is completed...

Wait... Brother Burkel gets murdered and his congregation (who all converted out of their free will) persecuted... you're saying the chantry is unreasonable for trying to defend it's members?

In the same way... I'd advise against using the exalted march on the dales as a argument. None of us knows exactly what started it and what happened during it. For all we know the elves could have been worse and that the chantry called the exalted march as a last line of defence. Until we get some sort of clarification to what exactly transpired it cannot support either position.

Considering you ignored everything I wrote prior to that statement, let me said it again: The Chantry has a habit of going after nations who don't accept their religion or their precise point of view on Andraste - the Tevinter Imperium, the Dales, and possibly Orzammar if Burkel is killed were used as examples. I'm not even touching that they do nothing to quell the rape of women by chevaliers or how their actions impoverished almost every elf on Thedas. The Chantry didn't care about the slavery going on in Tevinter, only that they decided not to worship Andraste as a divine figure but a mortal one, and they sent templars to force the Dalish to submit to their religion when they turned away the missionaries, making it illegal to worship the elven gods.

Fang470 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
no one better to watch over men, women, and children than armed and armored drug addicts...

you sir are made of win

Thank you.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry has a habit of going after nations who don't accept their religion or their precise point of view on Andraste - the Tevinter Imperium.

There wasn't a chantry then, just a barbarian and his wife uniting people (including elves, that subsequently were given the dales, to use as they wish) against the oppressive government.

Wait, my irony sense is tingling.

[Sir JK]

I think he meant the modern one with the Imperial Chantty, Herr Uhl.



LobselVith8:

I just reacted because you lump them all together. You equal the exalted marches on the Tevinter Imperium, The Dales and the contemplated one against Orzammar with one another. You're probably right in that it was the reason behind the marches on the imperial chantry. Those were probably political wars disguised as religious as you say.



But the one on Orzammar because of Brother Burkel isn't even in the same league... they're trying to protect their followers there. How is that even remotely connected to the marches against the imperium ? Maybe there are members who think the dwarves are indeed godless heathens, but that march is still being urged on by the fact that (for once) it's their followers being prosecuted.

Or do you simply think that the chantry have no business defending itself at all and should take it with a smile?



Note: Avoiding elaborating the dale-march due to no lore available about it (beyond when it happened, that it lasted 10-11 years and how it has affected the modern world)

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry has a habit of going after nations who don't accept their religion or their precise point of view on Andraste - the Tevinter Imperium.

There wasn't a chantry then, just a barbarian and his wife uniting people (including elves, that subsequently were given the dales, to use as they wish) against the oppressive government.

Wait, my irony sense is tingling.

No, there was a Chantry then. The Tevinter elected their own Imperial Divine (called the Black Divine by the Andrastian Chantry) during the Towers Age. Emperor Kordillus Drakon I of the Orlesian Empire, who created the Chantry of Andraste in -3 Ancient, was soon followed with the election of the Divine three years after, marking the beginning of the Chantry calendar and the Divine Age. The schism between Orlais and Tevinter happened two Ages after.

Sir JK wrote...

I think he meant the modern one with the Imperial Chantty, Herr Uhl.

LobselVith8:
I just reacted because you lump them all together. You equal the exalted marches on the Tevinter Imperium, The Dales and the contemplated one against Orzammar with one another. You're probably right in that it was the reason behind the marches on the imperial chantry. Those were probably political wars disguised as religious as you say.

But the one on Orzammar because of Brother Burkel isn't even in the same league... they're trying to protect their followers there. How is that even remotely connected to the marches against the imperium ? Maybe there are members who think the dwarves are indeed godless heathens, but that march is still being urged on by the fact that (for once) it's their followers being prosecuted.
Or do you simply think that the chantry have no business defending itself at all and should take it with a smile?

Note: Avoiding elaborating the dale-march due to no lore available about it (beyond when it happened, that it lasted 10-11 years and how it has affected the modern world)

All of the Exalted Marches are about the Chantry asserting its dominion over another, and trying to force its religious views; there's no doubt that the Chantry would follow a victory in Orzammar by banning worship of the Ancestors, just like they forbid the worship of the elven gods after the fall of the Dales. Their entire purpose is forcing their religion onto the four corners of the world in the hopes that it brings back the Maker. True, some conservatives among the dwarves react badly to the new religion, but Burkel was killed when he resisted arrest.

I have trouble seeing the Chantry as the champion of the people in your scenerio because they've done exactly the same thing to the Dales. The Divine also contemplates an Exalted March if Orzammar harbors free mages, outside Chantry oversight. However, given their dependence on the lyrium trade for the templars and the mages of the Circle, it's doubtful that Orlais would actually attack Orzammar without weakening themselves significantly.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry has a habit of going after nations who don't accept their religion or their precise point of view on Andraste - the Tevinter Imperium.

There wasn't a chantry then, just a barbarian and his wife uniting people (including elves, that subsequently were given the dales, to use as they wish) against the oppressive government.

Wait, my irony sense is tingling.

No, there was a Chantry then. The Tevinter elected their own Imperial Divine (called the Black Divine by the Andrastian Chantry) during the Towers Age. Emperor Kordillus Drakon I of the Orlesian Empire, who created the Chantry of Andraste in -3 Ancient, was soon followed with the election of the Divine three years after, marking the beginning of the Chantry calendar and the Divine Age. The schism between Orlais and Tevinter happened two Ages after.

Ah, fair mistake. You did say Tevinter Imperium though.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry has a habit of going after nations who don't accept their religion or their precise point of view on Andraste - the Tevinter Imperium.

There wasn't a chantry then, just a barbarian and his wife uniting people (including elves, that subsequently were given the dales, to use as they wish) against the oppressive government.

Wait, my irony sense is tingling.

No, there was a Chantry then. The Tevinter elected their own Imperial Divine (called the Black Divine by the Andrastian Chantry) during the Towers Age. Emperor Kordillus Drakon I of the Orlesian Empire, who created the Chantry of Andraste in -3 Ancient, was soon followed with the election of the Divine three years after, marking the beginning of the Chantry calendar and the Divine Age. The schism between Orlais and Tevinter happened two Ages after.

Ah, fair mistake. You did say Tevinter Imperium though.

They are still called the Tevinter Imperium - its simply that they're following the Imperial Chantry now lead by the Imperial Divine.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Ah, fair mistake. You did say Tevinter Imperium though.

They are still called the Tevinter Imperium - its simply that they're following the Imperial Chantry now lead by the Imperial Divine.

Yeah, but I think of that as the Imperial Chantry ones to avoid confusion.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

All of the Exalted Marches are about the Chantry asserting its dominion over another, and trying to force its religious views...

I'm not sure about that it's that simple, I'll need more information on past exalted marches than is available to be able to decide though. Here we have to agree to disagree I think.

there's no doubt that the Chantry would follow a victory in Orzammar by banning worship of the Ancestors, just like they forbid the worship of the elven gods after the fall of the Dales.

I admit that it's very plausible (and there will definantely be chantrists that wants this, no question about it). But it would not be the sole or even primary reason.

True, some conservatives among the dwarves react badly to the new religion, but Burkel was killed when he resisted arrest.

I'm just saying, it looks a bit odd when you use the chantry's treatment on mages and dalish against them and then excuses Burkel's murder. If mages deserve to be free and their struggle is justified and if the Dalish were justified in defending themselves against the chantry (if that is indeed what they did), doesn't the chantry have to right to defend it's prosecuted members?

The Divine also contemplates an Exalted March if Orzammar harbors free mages, outside Chantry oversight.

True. But that never happens alongside the murder of Burkel though, it's always one or the other (they also contemplate it if the dwarves are kidnapping humans for their golems).

However, given their dependence on the lyrium trade for the templars and the mages of the Circle, it's doubtful that Orlais would actually attack Orzammar without weakening themselves significantly.

Completely agreed

Modifié par Sir JK, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

I would fight the Chantry if I had to, but I've got a feeling it will only come back, more angry and blind than ever... See, it is extremely hard to eliminate a religion the size of the Chantry... It woulf only be possible if the people were extremely displeased or outright hostily against it. That has not been my impression, though.

[Daerog]

http://dragonage.wik...i/Exalted_March
Here's the exalted marches listed in the wikia, with links to go more in depth with them or whatever. Also, keep in mind that while the Chantry calls these things, it is the nations and regular armies that actually fight. These things are not run by some revered mother organizing and sending troops out. Calling an Exalted March is not a common thing and not a thing freely done by the Chantry, as it involves many people outside Chantry control, like the Crusades. And if these troops get out of hand or a king decides to raze a town, it's not like the Divine can call the king up and slap him publicly.

My opinion on them is the Imperial Chantry one was a knee jerk reaction, the Dales I place more blame on Orlais and the elves for just giving into tensions and not attempting political talks first (It was like Arlathan or w/e that city was called all over again, with elves being all secluded, humans getting suspicious, and some border trouble breaking out into war due to assumptions more than facts), and the Qunari one was understandable.
I'm surprised banners haven't been made for this thread yet.

[Kaiser Shepard]

It all depends on how each faction is displayed in the game: I sided with the Templars in Origins because the mages proved themselves to be idiots - apostate Morrigan being the ironic exception - but will side with the mages in DA2 if the Templars of Kirkwall seem unworthy of my help.

[Daerog]

MariSkep wrote...


Isn't someone going to arrest that guy? You know for like murder. I mean you got fifty some odd witnesses.

Oh, but someone insulted his lord, so he was like totally justified.

...

I wonder if Kal Sharok is worse or better in the whole open bloodshed thing.

[Sir JK]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...i/Exalted_March
Here's the exalted marches listed in the wikia, with links to go more in depth with them or whatever. Also, keep in mind that while the Chantry calls these things, it is the nations and regular armies that actually fight. These things are not run by some revered mother organizing and sending troops out. Calling an Exalted March is not a common thing and not a thing freely done by the Chantry, as it involves many people outside Chantry control, like the Crusades. And if these troops get out of hand or a king decides to raze a town, it's not like the Divine can call the king up and slap him publicly.

My opinion on them is the Imperial Chantry one was a knee jerk reaction, the Dales I place more blame on Orlais and the elves for just giving into tensions and not attempting political talks first (It was like Arlathan or w/e that city was called all over again, with elves being all secluded, humans getting suspicious, and some border trouble breaking out into war due to assumptions more than facts), and the Qunari one was understandable.
I'm surprised banners haven't been made for this thread yet.

Well said.

Also... some interesting things I found on the age page:

Glory Age:
... Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales...

2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves...

...While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux...

Modifié par Sir JK, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Reaverwind]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

It all depends on how each faction is displayed in the game: I sided with the Templars in Origins because the mages proved themselves to be idiots - apostate Morrigan being the ironic exception - but will side with the mages in DA2 if the Templars of Kirkwall seem unworthy of my help.

Indeed - that entry in Irving's journal was a bit of an eye-opener. It's hard to feel sorry for mages who unleash curses that continue to victimize people for centuries, or annihilate their allies with stupidity, or think it's their Maker-given right to use people as batteries.

[Daerog]

Well, ya, but there is so much info missing about the war between Orlais and the Dalish that one can't rightly blame one completely. The only reason I see the Chantry calling march on the elves was how close the elves were to the capital, but that may not have been the only or true reason.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I view the Chantry with horror, disgust, and apprehension. The sooner the wicked legions of that harlot Andraste fall, the sooner humanity is freed from its disgusting subservience to a petty and jealous Maker. For the Templars, I have only pity: they are but slaves of the Chantry, much as the lords and ladies of Thedas are.