1503 réponses à ce sujet

[ShrinkingFish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I view the Chantry with horror, disgust, and apprehension. The sooner the wicked legions of that harlot Andraste fall, the sooner humanity is freed from its disgusting subservience to a petty and jealous Maker. For the Templars, I have only pity: they are but slaves of the Chantry, much as the lords and ladies of Thedas are.

I appreicate the IC response here...

But you do know that the Tevinter Imperium perscribes to the faith of Andraste, right? They just have their own Divine.

[Annihilator27]

Anathemic wrote...


King Arthas dissaproves Chantry -9000

The chantry must dealt with.

[Daerog]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I view the Chantry with horror, disgust, and apprehension. The sooner the wicked legions of that harlot Andraste fall, the sooner humanity is freed from its disgusting subservience to a petty and jealous Maker. For the Templars, I have only pity: they are but slaves of the Chantry, much as the lords and ladies of Thedas are.

I appreicate the IC response here...

But you do know that the Tevinter Imperium perscribes to the faith of Andraste, right? They just have their own Divine.

Those cowards are fools! We must free the remaining Old Gods and attain the power that rightly belongs to the divinely chosen (the magisters and Archon)! Power above all!

[Emperor Iaius I]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I view the Chantry with horror, disgust, and apprehension. The sooner the wicked legions of that harlot Andraste fall, the sooner humanity is freed from its disgusting subservience to a petty and jealous Maker. For the Templars, I have only pity: they are but slaves of the Chantry, much as the lords and ladies of Thedas are.

I appreicate the IC response here...

But you do know that the Tevinter Imperium perscribes to the faith of Andraste, right? They just have their own Divine.

A ruse, to keep the southerners from enacting another one of their horrid marches. The qunari are irritants enough without being aided by our own kind. The Divine is a magister, I believe, and the Imperial Chantry does not dare direct the magocracy. I imagine that the Orlesian Chantry itself suspects this to be true, but is willing to play along for political reasons as long as pro-Andrastian sentiments emerge from the the Imperial Chantry.

This isn't to say that the Imperium still worships the Old Gods, though I do hope that this is the case: rather, that the Imperial Chantry is an instrument--a tool, even--of the magocracy and that they merely pay lip-service to Andraste and her lot. Realpolitik seems likeliest.

Daerog: Well stated.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 23 septembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Lumikki]

Chris Readman wrote...

Okay then, people who are fine with the status quo, how would you improve on the parts that need improvement? I know there was mention by both Lumikki and Lotion Soronnar about giving the mages slightly more freedom, but obviously not complete freedom. Any other specifics you'd like to add?

If you ask from me, then I was thinking more like this.

When mage is born they are allways send to mage tower, what age this happens I don't know. Now this mage tower is more like boarding school, but freedom rules. These mage childrens can't leave from tower at all without Templar escord, until they reach sertain age and have been tested that they can handle they abilities. How ever, other people, like example they parents can visit them in tower, like weekends, just not live there. Tower security is on chantry's hand and they watch mages. Meaning Tower is these young mage childrens home for long time.

When mage has reach sertain age and done successfull testing, they become members of Circle of Mage. This means it's they job to be mage. Circle of Mages desides where the mage job is, it can be inside the tower or some other places. Now where ever this job is, mage can also take vacation from this job and go where ever they want. Example go back to they home with they family. Does this "free" mage have some Templar bodyguard with them, is up to Chantry. Meaning templar can be also be send the location where the mage job is, to keep eye of the mage.  Call them personal body guards. If mage or Templar isn't happy with this situation, relation between them doesn't work well, Templar can be replaced with other. It is also possible that there isn't any Templar watching the mage, if Chantry thinks it's not anymore necassary.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 septembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Zenjamin]

FIGHT

[ShrinkingFish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

This isn't to say that the Imperium still worships the Old Gods, though I do hope that this is the case: rather, that the Imperial Chantry is an instrument--a tool, even--of the magocracy and that they merely pay lip-service to Andraste and her lot. Realpolitik seems likeliest.

You mean they use the religion in the exact same fashion that the Orlesians do? Establishing themselves as the center of a wide spread religion in order to claim supremacy over the world and prevent other countries from enforcing political influence on them by way of the religion itself?

[Daerog]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

This isn't to say that the Imperium still worships the Old Gods, though I do hope that this is the case: rather, that the Imperial Chantry is an instrument--a tool, even--of the magocracy and that they merely pay lip-service to Andraste and her lot. Realpolitik seems likeliest.

You mean they use the religion in the exact same fashion that the Orlesians do? Establishing themselves as the center of a wide spread religion in order to claim supremacy over the world and prevent other countries from enforcing political influence on them by way of the religion itself?

No, the Tevinter Imperium isn't that crazy. They just use blood magic to mind control the masses, a much smoother and easier process. The Imperial Chantry is just a front for the other nations to see, but the Imperium spreads its influence through blood... YOUR BLOOD! MWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

[Emperor Iaius I]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

This isn't to say that the Imperium still worships the Old Gods, though I do hope that this is the case: rather, that the Imperial Chantry is an instrument--a tool, even--of the magocracy and that they merely pay lip-service to Andraste and her lot. Realpolitik seems likeliest.

You mean they use the religion in the exact same fashion that the Orlesians do? Establishing themselves as the center of a wide spread religion in order to claim supremacy over the world and prevent other countries from enforcing political influence on them by way of the religion itself?

The situations are only superficially similar. Minrathous does not use the Andrastian faith as a tool of conquest, nor does the Imperium claim that she is the center of the religion. Rather, the Imperial Chantry is the means by which Tevinter saves herself from brutal subjugation at the hand of the rabble that rightfully should be subject to Minrathous. There is no need to use religion to manufacture a fraudulent claim when an authentic claim will do.

[Morroian]

Lumikki wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The pro chantry people on this thread are trying to find a solution? To what? They seem to think the current situation is fine as is, especially suntan lotion.

No, not really, it's not "pro chantry" thinking curret situation is fine as it is, it's you who think that "pro chantry" thinks that way. There's difference there, as making assumption what others think.

Uh read the post above yours. Obviously I'm not talking about everyone just the heaviest supporters like lotion who are spamming this thread.

Lumikki wrote...
Just because "pro chantry" does not supporting some extreme violent solutions to solve some problems, isn't same as been happy with current situation. I think they just say current situation isn't as bad some may it looks. Sure, there are problems what needs fixing as improvements, but violence is never the best solution, it's the last possibility when all other solution has failed.

I used "pro chantry" this way, because not everyting is allways so black and white as everyone has to be one side or other.

I'm anti chantry, I think the mages are oppressed and reform is badly needed, but I don't advocate a violent solution.

[Riona45]

Lumikki wrote...

When mage is born they are allways send to mage tower, what age this happens I don't know.

A child isn't taken to the Circle until their powers manifest.  According to the wiki, the typical age range for a person to be brought to the Circle is 6-12.

[Riona45]

Chris Readman wrote...
Thanks for the well thought out reply. See this part is my personal focus in this whole argument on the Chantry vs mages issue. The story of DAII pretty much casts you into a role that would be more likely to be sympathetic to apostate mages, simply because you are related to at least one of them.

Two of them!  Both dad and sister are apostate mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fang470 wrote...

There are plenty of apostate mages scattered around the wilderness and yet abominations are rare and the chantry and templars were the reason for uldred going the evil abomination route and as for conner he made contact with the demon to save his father a circumstance rather rare i would expect

And you know there aren't dozens of abominations rampaging  around at once? Because the templars hunt them down. That's why.

Mages running around around free is just too inpractical and ineffective to work.

Also, consider this scenario in DAII; your sister is an apostate and
has been raised outside the tower her whole life, and it is unlikely
she will be willing to change her mind anytime soon. How will you
handle this situation in this world where your character is defined as
such?

Depends. I know too little about Bethany to form a oppinion yet. But in general, I wouldn't consider her joining the Circle bad. She will be protected and trained - better she live there with people like her, then die at the hands of some Templar or mob, or turn into an abomination.

As to how to improve the system...difficult to say. Mages could use more room (bigger tower, or give them a whole island) and should get more oportunitis to get out of the tower.

How were they necessary? Men, women, and children are murdered to keep
the Chantry's power intact. And how has the Chantry saved the mages?
All they do is force the mages under templar rule, using them as
soldiers against the Qunari or turning them into slaves to craft runes.

The same way a cop shooting an armed perp pointing a gun in necessary. The same way social services taking children away from unfit parents is necessary. Sad, but necessary.

And yes, save. Because they bring in mages alive if possible. Because they save mages from mobs that would have killed them. As said by Wynee, the tower protect the mages from the outside world just as much as protects the outside world from the mages.

No, the Chantry wants power.

Prove that.
Oh, right. I forget - you can't.

Some of us think that the Chantry should be stopped; others have no
issue with the Chantry or think that there should be reform, and some
like Lotion Soronnar  actively support the abusive behavior of the
Chantry and its silent support of chevalier rape, elven murder, and
going to war with people who refuse to worship the Maker and Andraste.

And some people (you), lack general reading comprehension and common sense.
"supporting abusive behavior, rape and murder"?

No, I do not support rape or murder any more than you support rape and murder by supporting cops or soldiers or  social services (who do kill/rape on occasion or take away children)

Oh, and the Chantry had a lot of good reasons to go after Tevinter. Blood magic, slavery, mages in power, etc...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Report a crime? Sure, if there's someone there to report it in the first place. Or do you think the squad of douches that raped/killed a civilian will go in an report itself?

See this is how I know you don't know what you're talking about or how far the implications of what you're preaching go.

No, you're the one who has no idea what he is talking about.

You go on and on about how templars abuse and rape mages on a regular basis, but there is nothing to support this assertion. The Templars, for the most part, appear to function as a profession military organization. It does look to me like abuse of mages is something that is tolerated.
After all, mages are to be brought back alive if possible.

Templars in the field making decision to weather a mage is apostate or maleficar is the only approach that makes sense...you know..because they are the ones in the field and they know the situation best. It's how police and military work b.t.w. - the highest ranking officer decides the course of action.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morroian wrote...

Uh read the post above yours. Obviously I'm not talking about everyone just the heaviest supporters like lotion who are spamming this thread.

On normal days I only have internet acess from 8:00 to 16:00, so a lot of new posts (several pages worth) pop up by the time I get back on-line again. That's a lot to go trough, so my replies come in batches.

[aaniadyen]

Jesus, you guys are a vicious as my ex-wife.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 24 septembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do pro-mage people keep throwing the "They use the mages as soldiers against qunari and as slave for rune making boohoo!" card out? You do realize that BOTH these cases are in the mage themselves best interest? If the Qunari ever took over they would get their tounges cut out and the mages would be held in pens instead of towers. If they aren't Tranquilized they will die, they actually get the choice. They can take the harrowing and get a chance of survival, they can be executed or they can chose to become Tranquil.

Also about the Lyrium: The Templars knows fully well what will happen to them when taking the Lyrium. It however empowers their powers and is needed for them to combat evil magics effectively. And the Lyrium doesn't delude the minds of the Templars before years of use has gone by. All it does for the first many years is empowering their powers.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fang470 wrote...

There are plenty of apostate mages scattered around the wilderness and yet abominations are rare and the chantry and templars were the reason for uldred going the evil abomination route and as for conner he made contact with the demon to save his father a circumstance rather rare i would expect

And you know there aren't dozens of abominations rampaging  around at once? Because the templars hunt them down. That's why.

Mages running around around free is just too inpractical and ineffective to work.

There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fang470 wrote...

Also, consider this scenario in DAII; your sister is an apostate and
has been raised outside the tower her whole life, and it is unlikely
she will be willing to change her mind anytime soon. How will you
handle this situation in this world where your character is defined as
such?

Depends. I know too little about Bethany to form a oppinion yet. But in general, I wouldn't consider her joining the Circle bad. She will be protected and trained - better she live there with people like her, then die at the hands of some Templar or mob, or turn into an abomination.

As to how to improve the system...difficult to say. Mages could use more room (bigger tower, or give them a whole island) and should get more oportunitis to get out of the tower.

Why would anyone give up their freedom for a life of subjegation? And Bethany might also be turned into a tranquil so they have one more emotion-free slave to craft runes for them.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

How were they necessary? Men, women, and children are murdered to keep
the Chantry's power intact. And how has the Chantry saved the mages?
All they do is force the mages under templar rule, using them as
soldiers against the Qunari or turning them into slaves to craft runes.

The same way a cop shooting an armed perp pointing a gun in necessary. The same way social services taking children away from unfit parents is necessary. Sad, but necessary.

And yes, save. Because they bring in mages alive if possible. Because they save mages from mobs that would have killed them. As said by Wynee, the tower protect the mages from the outside world just as much as protects the outside world from the mages.

You mean like Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice? Or did they assume he was a blood mage mastermind that had to be put down? The only reason that Anders is alive is because of Irving, not the templars. And Wynne is a doormat for Chantry policies, so I'm not sure why you'd even reference her. She has no issue with the templars culling the Circle if Greagoir orders it (but will kill the Warden for the same thing) or losing her son to the Chantry (who may very well have killed them).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

No, the Chantry wants power.

Prove that.
Oh, right. I forget - you can't.

Yes, forcing an entire race of people to adopt your religion and going to war with anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs isn't a form of taking control... I don't think that the Dalish or the Tevinter Imperium would agree, though.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Some of us think that the Chantry should be stopped; others have no
issue with the Chantry or think that there should be reform, and some
like Lotion Soronnar  actively support the abusive behavior of the
Chantry and its silent support of chevalier rape, elven murder, and
going to war with people who refuse to worship the Maker and Andraste.

And some people (you), lack general reading comprehension and common sense.
"supporting abusive behavior, rape and murder"?

No, I do not support rape or murder any more than you support rape and murder by supporting cops or soldiers or  social services (who do kill/rape on occasion or take away children)

Oh, and the Chantry had a lot of good reasons to go after Tevinter. Blood magic, slavery, mages in power, etc...

Except the Chantry didn't go after Tevinter for blood magical and slavery - it went after them for declaring that Andraste was a mortal woman, or have you forgotten why they declared several Exalted Marches against them? Maybe you should brush up on your reading abilities. And considering that the Chantry does exactly that, including the templars actions against the Dalish and the mages, and your statement that the elves were "butthurt" by the whole thing and were stupid for defending themselves against the Chantry's attempts to forcibly covert them to worshipping Andraste don't really convince me otherwise.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do pro-mage people keep throwing the "They use the mages as soldiers against qunari and as slave for rune making boohoo!" card out? [/quote]

Because they do. Next question?

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You do realize that BOTH these cases are in the mage themselves best interest? [/quote]

You mean not getting killed by the templars sword of mercy? Of course its in their best interest not to be killed or turned tranquil by the templars. Some people actually like having the ability to feel emotions and living.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari ever took over they would get their tounges cut out and the mages would be held in pens instead of towers. If they aren't Tranquilized they will die, they actually get the choice. They can take the harrowing and get a chance of survival, they can be executed or they can chose to become Tranquil. [/quote]

So they should be glad they live under one group of fanatics instead of another?

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also about the Lyrium: The Templars knows fully well what will happen to them when taking the Lyrium. It however empowers their powers and is needed for them to combat evil magics effectively. And the Lyrium doesn't delude the minds of the Templars before years of use has gone by. All it does for the first many years is empowering their powers.[/quote]

Alistair states otherwise, and is fully capable of using those abilities without lyrium. And the templar who has gone without it for a while, the brother of Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea, is suffering from lyrium withdrawal.


[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
True, some conservatives among the dwarves react badly to the new religion, but Burkel was killed when he resisted arrest. [/quote]

I'm just saying, it looks a bit odd when you use the chantry's treatment on mages and dalish against them and then excuses Burkel's murder. If mages deserve to be free and their struggle is justified and if the Dalish were justified in defending themselves against the chantry (if that is indeed what they did), doesn't the chantry have to right to defend it's prosecuted members? [/quote]

I don't excuse Burkel's murder, but it's obvious that the Chantry is using it to justify an Exalted March. They went after the Dales when the Dalish refused to convert, and the Dalish codex references templars being used in the attempt to force their conversion. The Tevinter had slaves, but it was only when they said that Andraste was a mortal woman that several Exalted Marches were declared. At the time of DA:O, elves have no rights, they are forced to live in alienages, and alienages are occassionally purged (like the riot that happened after women were abducted in broad daylight to be gangraped by Bann Vaughan). The elven gods are outright forbidden to be worshipped by the Chantry. All of this happened because of the Exalted March against the Dales. Tevinter is attacked simply for viewing Andraste as a woman and not the divine Bride of the Maker; not because Tevinter was engaging in slavery. Orzammar is no different; the casteless suffer for generations, but the Chantry doesn't care about their plight; only when the opportunity for the Chantry to gain power in Orzammar is threatened do they decide to suddenly care about the plight of the dwarves.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Divine also contemplates an Exalted March if Orzammar harbors free mages, outside Chantry oversight. [/quote]

True. But that never happens alongside the murder of Burkel though, it's always one or the other (they also contemplate it if the dwarves are kidnapping humans for their golems). [/quote]
Actually, the Andrastian nations simply attack Orzammar if Branka is kidnapping humans during the reign of King Harrowmont.
[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...i/Exalted_March
Here's the exalted marches listed in the wikia, with links to go more in depth with them or whatever. Also, keep in mind that while the Chantry calls these things, it is the nations and regular armies that actually fight. These things are not run by some revered mother organizing and sending troops out. Calling an Exalted March is not a common thing and not a thing freely done by the Chantry, as it involves many people outside Chantry control, like the Crusades. And if these troops get out of hand or a king decides to raze a town, it's not like the Divine can call the king up and slap him publicly.

My opinion on them is the Imperial Chantry one was a knee jerk reaction, the Dales I place more blame on Orlais and the elves for just giving into tensions and not attempting political talks first (It was like Arlathan or w/e that city was called all over again, with elves being all secluded, humans getting suspicious, and some border trouble breaking out into war due to assumptions more than facts), and the Qunari one was understandable.
I'm surprised banners haven't been made for this thread yet. [/quote]

Well said.

Also... some interesting things I found on the age page:

[quote]Glory Age:
... Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales...

2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves...

...While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux...[/quote]
[/quote]

You mean the codexs from the Andrastian nations painted the Dales as the bad guys? According to the Dalish codex, the Chantry sent in missionaries to convert the Dalish, and when that failed, the templars. According to the Dalish Warden Codex Entry for the Dales:

Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

--"The End of the Long Walk," as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin Clan of the Dalish Elves

[xXhayleyroxXx]

I'm neautral towards the chantry in-game. I wouldn't fight it unless in got in the way with what I was doing, and also Leliana and Alistair were both once part of the chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...



[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do pro-mage people keep throwing the "They use the mages as soldiers against qunari and as slave for rune making boohoo!" card out? [/quote]

Because they do. Next question?

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You do realize that BOTH these cases are in the mage themselves best interest? [/quote]

You mean not getting killed by the templars sword of mercy? Of course its in their best interest not to be killed or turned tranquil by the templars. Some people actually like having the ability to feel emotions and living.[/quote]
Then if they value it so dearly they should take their chances with the Harrowing no? Cowardice like Jowan's is no excuse. Being made Tranquil is sometimes the ONLY way of saving someones life. Jowan would have died in the Harrowing which was why they wanted to Tranquilize him.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari ever took over they would get their tounges cut out and the mages would be held in pens instead of towers. If they aren't Tranquilized they will die, they actually get the choice. They can take the harrowing and get a chance of survival, they can be executed or they can chose to become Tranquil. [/quote]

So they should be glad they live under one group of fanatics instead of another?[/quote]
Yes. Also you are making it sound like the Chantry are forcing the mages to battle the Qunari, which most likely isn't true. Some mages study specifically to become battle mages and herp derp they get sent to war (SHOCKING!). Some study to become healers. Healers are needed in war (EVEN MORE SHOCKING!!). And so they get sent along with the rest of the armies. They probably got as much choice as anyone else in the army, some are there voluntarily others were drafted.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also about the Lyrium: The Templars knows fully well what will happen to them when taking the Lyrium. It however empowers their powers and is needed for them to combat evil magics effectively. And the Lyrium doesn't delude the minds of the Templars before years of use has gone by. All it does for the first many years is empowering their powers.[/quote]

Alistair states otherwise, and is fully capable of using those abilities without lyrium. And the templar who has gone without it for a while, the brother of Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea, is suffering from lyrium withdrawal. [/quote]
Alistair SPECULATES that Lyrium might not do that. He has never taken any himself sp he knows SQUAT about what he is talking about. And you do know what the cure from Lyrium Withdrawal is right? Lyrium.. Baddabing baddabum problem solved. No one is doubting you can learn the Templar talents without Lyrium. Lyrium just empowers them.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean the codexs from the Andrastian nations painted the Dales as the bad guys? According to the Dalish codex, the Chantry sent in missionaries to convert the Dalish, and when that failed, the templars. According to the Dalish Warden Codex Entry for the Dales:

Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

--"The End of the Long Walk," as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin Clan of the Dalish Elves [/quote]
The Templars being sent in probably refers to the Exalted March you know.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't excuse Burkel's murder, but it's obvious that the Chantry is using it to justify an Exalted March. They went after the Dales when the Dalish refused to convert, and the Dalish codex references templars being used in the attempt to force their conversion. The Tevinter had slaves, but it was only when they said that Andraste was a mortal woman that several Exalted Marches were declared. At the time of DA:O, elves have no rights, they are forced to live in alienages, and alienages are occassionally purged (like the riot that happened after women were abducted in broad daylight to be gangraped by Bann Vaughan). The elven gods are outright forbidden to be worshipped by the Chantry. All of this happened because of the Exalted March against the Dales. Tevinter is attacked simply for viewing Andraste as a woman and not the divine Bride of the Maker; not because Tevinter was engaging in slavery. Orzammar is no different; the casteless suffer for generations, but the Chantry doesn't care about their plight; only when the opportunity for the Chantry to gain power in Orzammar is threatened do they decide to suddenly care about the plight of the dwarves.

They care about their dwarves' plight though. Before Burkel there were no andrastian dwarves in Orzammar.

Actually, the Andrastian nations simply attack Orzammar if Branka is kidnapping humans during the reign of King Harrowmont.

No exalted march for that? Huh... must have misremembered. My mistake.

You mean the codexs from the Andrastian nations painted the Dales as the bad guys? According to the Dalish codex, the Chantry sent in missionaries to convert the Dalish, and when that failed, the templars. According to the Dalish Warden Codex Entry for the Dales:

Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

--"The End of the Long Walk," as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin Clan of the Dalish Elves

If the Dalish codex entries are to be considered valid and completely true, then we must consider the andrastian's one to be true as well. Unless of course you can find evidence that they are not.

The most probable is that both are equally true in that they tell the truth of the atrocities committed against them and lie about the atrocities committed by them.
A good example of that can be seen in the very codex entry you provided above. The text mentions first missionaries that were thrown out, then that the templars came and then that Halamshiral fell. Implying that one happened after another in quick succession. It omitts the "tiny" detail that it was 11 years of war before Halamshiral fell (16 if you count from the start of the first skirmishes). A war waged at least initially in[ Orlesian territory.

So, most likely both sides are lying in their own favour. The chantry trivialises those intitial skirmishes, the Dalish doesn't mention that they sacked at least three cities, including Val Royeaux.
A very typical war. The victor proclaims itself as justified and the defeated portray themselves as victims.

In actuality, they probably were just as bad to one another and just as guilty for the war itself.

Modifié par Sir JK, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
True, some conservatives among the dwarves react badly to the new religion, but Burkel was killed when he resisted arrest.

I'm just saying, it looks a bit odd when you use the chantry's treatment on mages and dalish against them and then excuses Burkel's murder. If mages deserve to be free and their struggle is justified and if the Dalish were justified in defending themselves against the chantry (if that is indeed what they did), doesn't the chantry have to right to defend it's prosecuted members?

I don't excuse Burkel's murder, but it's obvious that the Chantry is using it to justify an Exalted March

They contemplate an exalted march. Everyone seems to think that there was one due to that.

And you mean that Brother Burkel was an insurgent that went there of his own volition, against the recommendation of his fellow brothers and sisters (IIRC). He then leaves due to resistance unless you (the warden) gives him the right to go there.

They are fiendishly clever, those divine.

Edit: And otherwise, do you mean that they use the whole reason for the exalted march as a reason for it? THOSE BASTARDS!

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So they should be glad they live under one group of fanatics instead of another?[/quote]

Yes. Also you are making it sound like the Chantry are forcing the mages to battle the Qunari, which most likely isn't true. Some mages study specifically to become battle mages and herp derp they get sent to war (SHOCKING!). Some study to become healers. Healers are needed in war (EVEN MORE SHOCKING!!). And so they get sent along with the rest of the armies. They probably got as much choice as anyone else in the army, some are there voluntarily others were drafted. [/quote]

People in a correctional facility also study, it doesn't change the fact that they're in prison. You make it sound as if the mages should be glad to be living under a tyranny that outright outlaws them from raising children and even inheriting a title or an estate. Templars hunt down mages, even Dalish mages. Given the fact that the Chantry imprisons mages the moment that they show signs of magical ability, yes, they are not given a choice. Ripping someone from their family and imprisoning them amongst a group of strangers, with drug addicts watching over them, and living in a society that fears and hates them is hardly an ideal situation. There's no reason that many of those mages shouldn't want and deserve better than a life imprisoned under the watch of the Chantry.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Alistair states otherwise, and is fully capable of using those abilities without lyrium. And the templar who has gone without it for a while, the brother of Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea, is suffering from lyrium withdrawal. [/quote]
Alistair SPECULATES that Lyrium might not do that. He has never taken any himself sp he knows SQUAT about what he is talking about. And you do know what the cure from Lyrium Withdrawal is right? Lyrium.. Baddabing baddabum problem solved. No one is doubting you can learn the Templar talents without Lyrium. Lyrium just empowers them. [/quote]

And you're speculating now. What's clear is that the templars lyrium addiction keeps them in line with the Chantry, who control the lyrium trade with the dwarves.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Templars being sent in probably refers to the Exalted March you know.[/quote]

No, it isn't. The Exalted March against the Dales wasn't called in when the Dalish attacked the town of Red Crossing (the official start of the war, according to Orlais), but when they were winning the battles, captured Montsimmard, and were heading into Val Royeaux.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't excuse Burkel's murder, but it's obvious that the Chantry is using it to justify an Exalted March. They went after the Dales when the Dalish refused to convert, and the Dalish codex references templars being used in the attempt to force their conversion. The Tevinter had slaves, but it was only when they said that Andraste was a mortal woman that several Exalted Marches were declared. At the time of DA:O, elves have no rights, they are forced to live in alienages, and alienages are occassionally purged (like the riot that happened after women were abducted in broad daylight to be gangraped by Bann Vaughan). The elven gods are outright forbidden to be worshipped by the Chantry. All of this happened because of the Exalted March against the Dales. Tevinter is attacked simply for viewing Andraste as a woman and not the divine Bride of the Maker; not because Tevinter was engaging in slavery. Orzammar is no different; the casteless suffer for generations, but the Chantry doesn't care about their plight; only when the opportunity for the Chantry to gain power in Orzammar is threatened do they decide to suddenly care about the plight of the dwarves.[/quote]

They care about their dwarves' plight though. Before Burkel there were no andrastian dwarves in Orzammar. [/quote]

That must explain why they do exactly nothing to aid the casteless and continue to buy lyrium that turns templars into addicts.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the codexs from the Andrastian nations painted the Dales as the bad guys? According to the Dalish codex, the Chantry sent in missionaries to convert the Dalish, and when that failed, the templars. According to the Dalish Warden Codex Entry for the Dales:

Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

--"The End of the Long Walk," as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin Clan of the Dalish Elves [/quote]

If the Dalish codex entries are to be considered valid and completely true, then we must consider the andrastian's one to be true as well. Unless of course you can find evidence that they are not.

The most probable is that both are equally true in that they tell the truth of the atrocities committed against them and lie about the atrocities committed by them.
A good example of that can be seen in the very codex entry you provided above. The text mentions first missionaries that were thrown out, then that the templars came and then that Halamshiral fell. Implying that one happened after another in quick succession. It omitts the "tiny" detail that it was 11 years of war before Halamshiral fell (16 if you count from the start of the first skirmishes). A war waged at least initially in[ Orlesian territory.

So, most likely both sides are lying in their own favour. The chantry trivialises those intitial skirmishes, the Dalish doesn't mention that they sacked at least three cities, including Val Royeaux.
A very typical war. The victor proclaims itself as justified and the defeated portray themselves as victims.

In actuality, they probably were just as bad to one another and just as guilty for the war itself.
[/quote]

It's impossible to know the truth about the war between Orlais and the Dales. I'd agree that both sides likely paint the other as the responsible party.

[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
True, some conservatives among the dwarves react badly to the new religion, but Burkel was killed when he resisted arrest. [/quote]

I'm just saying, it looks a bit odd when you use the chantry's treatment on mages and dalish against them and then excuses Burkel's murder. If mages deserve to be free and their struggle is justified and if the Dalish were justified in defending themselves against the chantry (if that is indeed what they did), doesn't the chantry have to right to defend it's prosecuted members? [/quote]

I don't excuse Burkel's murder, but it's obvious that the Chantry is using it to justify an Exalted March[/quote]

They contemplate an exalted march. Everyone seems to think that there was one due to that.

And you mean that Brother Burkel was an insurgent that went there of his own volition, against the recommendation of his fellow brothers and sisters (IIRC). He then leaves due to resistance unless you (the warden) gives him the right to go there.

They are fiendishly clever, those divine.

Edit: And otherwise, do you mean that they use the whole reason for the exalted march as a reason for it? THOSE BASTARDS!
[/quote]

I don't recall Burkel mentioning that any member of the Chantry trying to stop his efforts; I believe he says that he comes from Redcliffe, if asked why he's a member of the Chantry instead of following the Ancestors. As for the Exalted March, you seem surprised by my statement. Don't you realize why the Chantry declared its prior Exalted Marches? The Dales refused to convert to Andraste and an Exalted March followed; the Tevinter Imperium declared that Andraste was a mortal woman and an Exalted March followed. I see a pattern here. Brother Burkel is looking to open a Chantry in Orzammar, but the success of the Chantry causes the Assembly to restrict the rights of Burkel's pro-Chantry converts, and he dies resisting arrest during a protest. No one thinks to call an Exalted March because of the slavery going on in Tevinter or the treatment of the casteless, but for the death of a member of the Chantry resisting arrest by people who don't share his religious beliefs.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:53 .