1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall Burkel mentioning that any member of the Chantry trying to stop his efforts; I believe he says that he comes from Redcliffe, if asked why he's a member of the Chantry instead of following the Ancestors. As for the Exalted March, you seem surprised by my statement. Don't you realize why the Chantry declared its prior Exalted Marches? The Dales refused to convert to Andraste and an Exalted March followed; the Tevinter Imperium declared that Andraste was a mortal woman and an Exalted March followed. I see a pattern here. Brother Burkel is looking to open a Chantry in Orzammar, but the success of the Chantry causes the Assembly to restrict the rights of Burkel's pro-Chantry converts, and he dies resisting arrest during a protest. No one thinks to call an Exalted March because of the slavery going on in Tevinter or the treatment of the casteless, but for the death of a member of the Chantry resisting arrest by people who don't share his religious beliefs.

Why haven't they called exalted marches against Orzammar before then? And why don't they do it if you don't help Burkel be there for them simply not wanting the chantry?

Calling that some kind of master plan, that they expected him to be accepted, and then killed so they can declare an exalted march just seems too far-fetched.

You're looking for conspiracies where there are none.

Edit: Methinks that the Dales did their fair share of bad things too, to strike up the tensions, like I don't know, not even trying to help with the blight. Tensions had been up there for a while, there is more to it than the chantry wanting them to be andrastian.

Edit 2: If you do want to make them seem like bad guys, talk crap about them for contemplating a march when the Lyrium-monopoly gets threatened. Not being understandably enraged over the sacking of a chantry that was built in total accordance to the law.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

Yes, very effective..especially given that they're so spread out, that by the time any action is taken, the blood mage/abomination has already done enough damage.

Why would anyone give up their freedom for a life of subjegation? And Bethany might also be turned into a tranquil so they have one more emotion-free slave to craft runes for them.

Why? Because it's a necessary sacrifice for the grater good. Because it's the friggin law and being always on the run is no pickinck either.
If you were infected with a deadly desease, would you accept the quarantene or would you try to break out of it?

But again, depends. If the templars in Kirkwall end up being douches...

LobselVith66 wrote...
You mean like Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice? Or did they assume he was a blood mage mastermind that had to be put down? The only reason that Anders is alive is because of Irving, not the templars.
And Wynne is a doormat for Chantry policies, so I'm not sure why you'd
even reference her. She has no issue with the templars culling the
Circle if Greagoir orders it (but will kill the Warden for the same
thing) or losing her son to the Chantry (who may very well have killed
them).

Wynne is OK if she tals something against the templars/Chantry, but NOT if she tells something different? How funny you are.

Her apprentice? If he resisted arreast (attacked the templars), then yes...the templas were justified for responding with deadly force.

Yes, forcing an entire race of people to adopt your religion and going to war with anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs isn't a form of taking control... I don't think that the Dalish or the Tevinter Imperium would agree, though.

Cause and consuquence. Motive and action.
You have the underscored and then assume you know the bolded. You don't. Multiple possible causes. Multiple possible motives.
You cannot use your extrapolations as facts.


You are so quick to belive everything against the Chantry. You fully belive in elvish codexes, and discard others as biased. No, my sad little man, you have no objectivity in the matter.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Danjaru]

Dunno. The chantry was pretty much the bad guy to mages and people that didn't believe like they did. But then again the Chantry was the only safehouse for the ones in trouble that the nobles didn't/couldn't help, and they attempted to create jobs for the casteless in Orzammar.



I'd probably fight the chantry when it came to war and stuff like that if we're given the choice, but wouldn't try to annihilate them completely, just their forces and ze templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
People in a correctional facility also study, it doesn't change the fact that they're in prison. You make it sound as if the mages should be glad to be living under a tyranny that outright outlaws them from raising children and even inheriting a title or an estate. Templars hunt down mages, even Dalish mages. Given the fact that the Chantry imprisons mages the moment that they show signs of magical ability, yes, they are not given a choice. Ripping someone from their family and imprisoning them amongst a group of strangers, with drug addicts watching over them, and living in a society that fears and hates them is hardly an ideal situation. There's no reason that many of those mages shouldn't want and deserve better than a life imprisoned under the watch of the Chantry.

You realize that they take children away from their parents for their own good right? Being raised in a loving enviroment is good and all, but once this kid has accidently killed a man with a fireball or turned into an abomination I can assure you that the loving is gone.
And do we really have to keep reminding you of why the mages can't be allowed to keep their children? ITS TOO DANGEROUS.
If mages actually were able to uplift their own reputation maybe, just maybe, the rest of the world would stop fearing and despise them. But here we have mages going nilly willy turning to Blood Magic, trying to incite revolt, actually revolting, summoning demons and becoming abominations..... Mages need to think abit more about their PR...
Templars hunt Dalish Keepers because the Dalish are praticing forbidden magic by law. If they want to escape persecution from Templars they can make a state somewhere and try hold on to it this time. The Templars got juridstiction over the Dalish becuse the Dalish are wandering in lands goverened by Andrastian law.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And you're speculating now. What's clear is that the templars lyrium addiction keeps them in line with the Chantry, who control the lyrium trade with the dwarves.

Uhm... No I'm not... The lore states that Lyrium empowers the Templars. Alistair however expresses doubt at this. True that none of us know since we don't get to try Lyrium on our Templar characters, however several codex entries and passing mentions outweighs little Alistairs speculations.

LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. The Exalted March against the Dales wasn't called in when the Dalish attacked the town of Red Crossing (the official start of the war, according to Orlais), but when they were winning the battles, captured Montsimmard, and were heading into Val Royeaux. 

The codex entry you quoted describes the fall of the Dales in three points...... Emissaries, Templars and the actual fall. We all know a lot more happened than just that. Furthermore the entry makes no mention or effort to give a timestamp of said points. However through logic we can deduct that the Templars are a reference to the Exalted March waged against the Dales since Templars, being holy warriors, most likely follow an Exalted March en masse. So yes, it does refer to the Exalted March.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall Burkel mentioning that any member of the Chantry trying to stop his efforts; I believe he says that he comes from Redcliffe, if asked why he's a member of the Chantry instead of following the Ancestors. As for the Exalted March, you seem surprised by my statement. Don't you realize why the Chantry declared its prior Exalted Marches? The Dales refused to convert to Andraste and an Exalted March followed; the Tevinter Imperium declared that Andraste was a mortal woman and an Exalted March followed. I see a pattern here. Brother Burkel is looking to open a Chantry in Orzammar, but the success of the Chantry causes the Assembly to restrict the rights of Burkel's pro-Chantry converts, and he dies resisting arrest during a protest. No one thinks to call an Exalted March because of the slavery going on in Tevinter or the treatment of the casteless, but for the death of a member of the Chantry resisting arrest by people who don't share his religious beliefs.[/quote]

Why haven't they called exalted marches against Orzammar before then? And why don't they do it if you don't help Burkel be there for them simply not wanting the chantry?

Calling that some kind of master plan, that they expected him to be accepted, and then killed so they can declare an exalted march just seems too far-fetched.

You're looking for conspiracies where there are none.

Edit: Methinks that the Dales did their fair share of bad things too, to strike up the tensions, like I don't know, not even trying to help with the blight. Tensions had been up there for a while, there is more to it than the chantry wanting them to be andrastian.
[/quote]

Let's see... Dales are destroyed, Tevinter is attacked several times, and mages across Thedas all belong to the Chantry. Not to mention the nations Orlais has taken over (including Ferelden and the Dales) as the homeland of the Chantry. Conspiracy? You seem to be blatantly ignoring that the Chantry destroyed the Dales and trying to overthrow the Tevinter Imperium because they refused to follow the Chantry of Andraste. Missionaries were sent to the Dales, then templars when the missionaries were thrown out. And I've already covered how the Dalish withdrew from humanity because they wanted to reclaim the glory of Elvhenan and the last time they associated with humanity, the elves were enslaved and their homeland was destroyed. Furthermore, the Divine contemplates an Exalted March (according to rumors) if Orzammar harbors free mages or restricts the rights of dwarves who convert to the Orzammar Chantry.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?[/quote]

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

Yes, very effective..especially given that they're so spread out, that by the time any action is taken, the blood mage/abomination has already done enough damage. [/quote]

Abominations? Pure speculation that has no merit in the actual storyline of DA:O. One mage actually asks the Warden to attack a coven of maleficarum and another is trying to stop an apprentice who has no known ties to the Collective because that apprentice became an abomination by following teachings that his mentor prohibited.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would anyone give up their freedom for a life of subjegation? And Bethany might also be turned into a tranquil so they have one more emotion-free slave to craft runes for them.[/quote]

Why? Because it's a necessary sacrifice for the grater good. Because it's the friggin law and being always on the run is no pickinck either.
If you were infected with a deadly desease, would you accept the quarantene or would you try to break out of it?

But again, depends. If the templars in Kirkwall end up being douches... [/quote]

Greater good? You mean the Chantry controlling the mages to serve as little more than their slaves and personal footsoldiers? Hardly the greater good. And comparing magic to a disease is a poor example.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean like Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice? Or did they assume he was a blood mage mastermind that had to be put down? The only reason that Anders is alive is because of Irving, not the templars.
And Wynne is a doormat for Chantry policies, so I'm not sure why you'd
even reference her. She has no issue with the templars culling the
Circle if Greagoir orders it (but will kill the Warden for the same
thing) or losing her son to the Chantry (who may very well have killed
them).[/quote]

Wynne is OK if she tals something against the templars/Chantry, but NOT if she tells something different? How funny you are.

Her apprentice? If he resisted arreast (attacked the templars), then yes...the templas were justified for responding with deadly force. [/quote]

When she tries to kill the Warden for something and gives the templars a pass for the same thing? Yes.

Except he never says he attacked them, and apparently he excels at healing arts (as in he heals the injuries of the people in your party) so there's no indication he's a warrior for the Dalish. There's no indication that he tried to attack them.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, forcing an entire race of people to adopt your religion and going to war with anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs isn't a form of taking control... I don't think that the Dalish or the Tevinter Imperium would agree, though.[/quote]

Cause and consuquence. Motive and action.
You have the underscored and then assume you know the bolded. You don't. Multiple possible causes. Multiple possible motives.
You cannot use your extrapolations as facts.
[/quote]

I can't use facts as facts? That really doesn't make any sense.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

People in a correctional facility also study, it doesn't change the fact that they're in prison. You make it sound as if the mages should be glad to be living under a tyranny that outright outlaws them from raising children and even inheriting a title or an estate. Templars hunt down mages, even Dalish mages. Given the fact that the Chantry imprisons mages the moment that they show signs of magical ability, yes, they are not given a choice. Ripping someone from their family and imprisoning them amongst a group of strangers, with drug addicts watching over them, and living in a society that fears and hates them is hardly an ideal situation. There's no reason that many of those mages shouldn't want and deserve better than a life imprisoned under the watch of the Chantry.[/quote]
You realize that they take children away from their parents for their own good right? Being raised in a loving enviroment is good and all, but once this kid has accidently killed a man with a fireball or turned into an abomination I can assure you that the loving is gone.
And do we really have to keep reminding you of why the mages can't be allowed to keep their children? ITS TOO DANGEROUS.
If mages actually were able to uplift their own reputation maybe, just maybe, the rest of the world would stop fearing and despise them. But here we have mages going nilly willy turning to Blood Magic, trying to incite revolt, actually revolting, summoning demons and becoming abominations..... Mages need to think abit more about their PR...
Templars hunt Dalish Keepers because the Dalish are praticing forbidden magic by law. If they want to escape persecution from Templars they can make a state somewhere and try hold on to it this time. The Templars got juridstiction over the Dalish becuse the Dalish are wandering in lands goverened by Andrastian law. [/quote]

The Dalish aren't part of Ferelden society. And the Hinterlands is given to them by the new ruler if they aid against the Blight. As for saying mages are inherently dangerous, I disagree. Circle mages are supposed to be learned scholars of the arcane arts. How can you say they are dangerous? And it's entirely possible that all the Chantry does is murder those children the same way the templars tried to kill Wynne's teenaged apprentice.

The situation with blood mages and abominations can be linked to the Chantry - they condition blood mages and abominations by forcing mages to gather as much power as possible to survive against templars who, as Cullen openly admits to a mage, talk about killing mages with glee. All you do is say that because a bunch of ignorant people hate mages, they shouldn't be trusted. I disagree.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And you're speculating now. What's clear is that the templars lyrium addiction keeps them in line with the Chantry, who control the lyrium trade with the dwarves.[/quote]
Uhm... No I'm not... The lore states that Lyrium empowers the Templars. Alistair however expresses doubt at this. True that none of us know since we don't get to try Lyrium on our Templar characters, however several codex entries and passing mentions outweighs little Alistairs speculations. [/quote]

You realize the codex entries aren't absolute truth? They're passages written by people within the world of Ferelden, like the passages by Brother Genitivi. That's why the codex about the Dales differs between the codex from Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish Elves, and the codex from Sister Petrine, the Chantry scholar.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it isn't. The Exalted March against the Dales wasn't called in when the Dalish attacked the town of Red Crossing (the official start of the war, according to Orlais), but when they were winning the battles, captured Montsimmard, and were heading into Val Royeaux. [/quote]
The codex entry you quoted describes the fall of the Dales in three points...... Emissaries, Templars and the actual fall. We all know a lot more happened than just that. Furthermore the entry makes no mention or effort to give a timestamp of said points. However through logic we can deduct that the Templars are a reference to the Exalted March waged against the Dales since Templars, being holy warriors, most likely follow an Exalted March en masse. So yes, it does refer to the Exalted March.[/quote]

It specifically mentions templars coming in when the emissaries were thrown out. There were battles and then the Exalted March when the Dalish were near Val Royeaux, so no, it doesn't refer to the Exalted March.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

People in a correctional facility also study, it doesn't change the fact that they're in prison. You make it sound as if the mages should be glad to be living under a tyranny that outright outlaws them from raising children and even inheriting a title or an estate. Templars hunt down mages, even Dalish mages. Given the fact that the Chantry imprisons mages the moment that they show signs of magical ability, yes, they are not given a choice. Ripping someone from their family and imprisoning them amongst a group of strangers, with drug addicts watching over them, and living in a society that fears and hates them is hardly an ideal situation. There's no reason that many of those mages shouldn't want and deserve better than a life imprisoned under the watch of the Chantry.

You realize that they take children away from their parents for their own good right? Being raised in a loving enviroment is good and all, but once this kid has accidently killed a man with a fireball or turned into an abomination I can assure you that the loving is gone.
And do we really have to keep reminding you of why the mages can't be allowed to keep their children? ITS TOO DANGEROUS.
If mages actually were able to uplift their own reputation maybe, just maybe, the rest of the world would stop fearing and despise them. But here we have mages going nilly willy turning to Blood Magic, trying to incite revolt, actually revolting, summoning demons and becoming abominations..... Mages need to think abit more about their PR...
Templars hunt Dalish Keepers because the Dalish are praticing forbidden magic by law. If they want to escape persecution from Templars they can make a state somewhere and try hold on to it this time. The Templars got juridstiction over the Dalish becuse the Dalish are wandering in lands goverened by Andrastian law.

The Dalish aren't part of Ferelden society. And the Hinterlands is given to them by the new ruler if they aid against the Blight. As for saying mages are inherently dangerous, I disagree. Circle mages are supposed to be learned scholars of the arcane arts. How can you say they are dangerous? And it's entirely possible that all the Chantry does is murder those children the same way the templars tried to kill Wynne's teenaged apprentice.

The situation with blood mages and abominations can be linked to the Chantry - they condition blood mages and abominations by forcing mages to gather as much power as possible to survive against templars who, as Cullen openly admits to a mage, talk about killing mages with glee. All you do is say that because a bunch of ignorant people hate mages, they shouldn't be trusted. I disagree.

Nope The Dalish aren't Fereldan, but they ARE on Fereldan territory and must adhere to their laws. Their laws says its forbidden to practice magic outside the Circle. Too bad. What they do is illegal, and Templars are therefore sent after them.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And you're speculating now. What's clear is that the templars lyrium addiction keeps them in line with the Chantry, who control the lyrium trade with the dwarves.

Uhm... No I'm not... The lore states that Lyrium empowers the Templars. Alistair however expresses doubt at this. True that none of us know since we don't get to try Lyrium on our Templar characters, however several codex entries and passing mentions outweighs little Alistairs speculations.

You realize the codex entries aren't absolute truth? They're passages written by people within the world of Ferelden, like the passages by Brother Genitivi. That's why the codex about the Dales differs between the codex from Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish Elves, and the codex from Sister Petrine, the Chantry scholar..

Uhm... And you realize they aren't all lies? You got ONE, EIN, UN, ÉN, 1!!!! guy speculating that something MIGHT be a lie, and you all start thinking it is the truth because you can potentially use it to besmirch the Chantry. That is a sad case of twisting the evidence to show falseness. The fact is lots of Tempalrs do it, well knowing tehy will become addicted, they take it to better fight mages. I'm not saying the Chantry isn't using it as a form of control. But why the flying **** would they give their OWN soldiers a handicap in the fight?! Why?

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it isn't. The Exalted March against the Dales wasn't called in when the Dalish attacked the town of Red Crossing (the official start of the war, according to Orlais), but when they were winning the battles, captured Montsimmard, and were heading into Val Royeaux. 

The codex entry you quoted describes the fall of the Dales in three points...... Emissaries, Templars and the actual fall. We all know a lot more happened than just that. Furthermore the entry makes no mention or effort to give a timestamp of said points. However through logic we can deduct that the Templars are a reference to the Exalted March waged against the Dales since Templars, being holy warriors, most likely follow an Exalted March en masse. So yes, it does refer to the Exalted March.

It specifically mentions templars coming in when the emissaries were thrown out. There were battles and then the Exalted March when the Dalish were near Val Royeaux, so no, it doesn't refer to the Exalted March.

"But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin." is the exact quote. No it does NOT state specifically the Templars were sent in before the Exalted March.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see... Dales are destroyed, Tevinter is attacked several times, and mages across Thedas all belong to the Chantry. Not to mention the nations Orlais has taken over (including Ferelden and the Dales) as the homeland of the Chantry. Conspiracy? You seem to be blatantly ignoring that the Chantry destroyed the Dales and trying to overthrow the Tevinter Imperium because they refused to follow the Chantry of Andraste. Missionaries were sent to the Dales, then templars when the missionaries were thrown out. And I've already covered how the Dalish withdrew from humanity because they wanted to reclaim the glory of Elvhenan and the last time they associated with humanity, the elves were enslaved and their homeland was destroyed. Furthermore, the Divine contemplates an Exalted March (according to rumors) if Orzammar harbors free mages or restricts the rights of dwarves who convert to the Orzammar Chantry.

So, tell me again why them being mad about the sacking of a chantry turns them into megalomaniacs? The brother Burkel thing is understandable. If he is turned away, they don't care. This is the point that I'm concerned about, not prior marches, THIS.

That they then have had marches in the past, due to what you seem to think is Dalish shooing them away (I doubt that they just said "No, we don't want the chantry, just go somewhere else." I think it was something a tad more bloody, possibly involving heads on pikes) and that they were scared of the imperial chantry since it seemed to revert towards the empire that their prophet gave her life fighting to abolish is another thing.

If they (devs) make everything as one-sided as you seem to think it is, I'd be sorely disappointed. The chantry aren't without fault, but what you're making them out to be is on a wholly different scale.

Edit: Grammar.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:04 .

[Daerog]

The speculations against the Chantry are just as wild as the speculations for it. Lotions points are just as valid as all the other points in this thread. Just because the Dalish were utterly crushed and the Chantry is the largest power in the nation, that doesn't mean the Dalish are the poor innocent victims of what happened in the past, they may have completely deserved it then, not all information is known or clear either way.

Also, MariSkep, taking what Lotion says and saying that he approves of injustice and cops killing people for coughing is complete bull**** and immature. Should those who wish the chantry destroyed and mages freed just be ignored, patted on the head, and told "Oh, you wish for chaos and anarchy and ragnarok, how ADORABLE!"? No, because that's stupid. Sorry to single out someone, but I just wished to show an example.

Honestly, people in this thread make valid points, lets all try to be respectful, on all sides. Sorry if people see this post as stupid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Abominations? Pure speculation that has no merit in the actual storyline of DA:O. One mage actually asks the Warden to attack a coven of maleficarum and another is trying to stop an apprentice who has no known ties to the Collective because that apprentice became an abomination by following teachings that his mentor prohibited.

Yes and you have others who ask for forbidden items or shady tasks. And you run into at least two abominations on the road. where did they come from? Not from thin air, I cna tell you that. Or do you somehow think the mages collective is free of abominations by some miracle?

Greater good? You mean the Chantry controlling the mages to serve as little more than their slaves and personal footsoldiers? Hardly the greater good. And comparing magic to a disease is a poor example.

No, I mena safety and security of hte general populace.
And disliek hte example as much as you like, but it still stand. And I see you didn't answer the question.

Mages are dangerous. To them and to themselves. They know it.

When she tries to kill the Warden for something and gives the templars a pass for the same thing? Yes.

Refresh my memory. I'm not certain what you're talking about.

Except he never says he attacked them, and apparently he excels at healing arts (as in he heals the injuries of the people in your party) so there's no indication he's a warrior for the Dalish. There's no indication that he tried to attack them.

There's no indication he didn't. You cannot just assume such things.
WE DON'T KNOW.

What we do know is that templars on the field decide if a mage is an apostate or maleficar. We do know templars went after him. We know they told Wynne they killed him (why? that we don't know). That's pretty much it.

Cause and consuquence. Motive and action.
You have the underscored and then assume you know the bolded. You don't. Multiple possible causes. Multiple possible motives.
You cannot use your extrapolations as facts.

I can't use facts as facts? That really doesn't make any sense.

You cna use fact, but you'd have to have them foirst.

You cannot claim as fact that you know the Devines motives. You cannot claim as fact that you know exactly why person X did Y, when you don't have acess to that information. This is simple logic. Try to refute it if you will, but it is pointless.

The Dalish aren't part of Ferelden society. And the Hinterlands is given to them by the new ruler if they aid against the Blight.

Everyone living in the coutnry is subject to imperial law.

What comes out of the  Hinterlands is to be seen. Personally, I hope it becomes a new elven kingdom.

As for saying mages are inherently dangerous, I disagree. Circle mages are supposed to be learned scholars of the arcane arts. How can you say they are dangerous?

Becasue they cna turn into abominations AT ANY MOMENT and loose any and all control of their power...which are only rendered more potent by the abomination. Remeber Connor, who is a untrained boy and the damage he wrought?

The situation with blood mages and abominations can be linked to the Chantry - they condition blood mages and abominations by forcing mages to gather as much power as possible to survive against templars who, as Cullen openly admits to a mage, talk about killing mages with glee. All you do is say that because a bunch of ignorant people hate mages, they shouldn't be trusted. I disagree.

Yes, and I know some soldiers that talk about their kills wiht glee. And cops that talk about killing pers with glee. Do you have any point with this, aside from the redicolous conspiracy theories?

The mistreatment of mages is grosly overblown by the chantry-haters here.
They make it sound like mage killing and rape are rampant - a daily occurance - and that templars don't answer for anything. Yet nothing really suggests that. In fact, everything suggest otehrwise - all the templars you meet in game are rather civil. In the tower everyone acts professionaly. Gregoir runs the tower fairly and clearly respects mages (he is friends with Irwin). Even Wynne states that the templars are the first people who treated her like a human being.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...
Don't you just love that? Lotion and his buddies are free to make as many wild speculations they want about the motives behind the Dalish, mages, anyone who doesn't bow to the Divine and anything they want. But heaven help you if you don't have a statement signed by at least 100 witnesses

Irony is that I'm rather neutral here. I don't make rampart speculations. I mereoly demonstrate that there are other explanations and interpretations and that most of what you thow around are conjectures, and not facts.

Your attacks agaisnt me will yield no results. Even a child can see that I put more thought and reason behind my posts than you.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And exactly why is it you refuse to show him any respect? As far as I recall all he has done is disagree with you. But apparently that is enough for you to start acting like a douche and even worse be unconstructive. You could at least offer something to the discussion instead of douchiness?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Edit: Insert funny comment

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MariSkep wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Abominations? Pure speculation that has no merit in the actual storyline of DA:O. One mage actually asks the Warden to attack a coven of maleficarum and another is trying to stop an apprentice who has no known ties to the Collective because that apprentice became an abomination by following teachings that his mentor prohibited.[/quote]

Don't you just love that? Lotion and his buddies are free to make as many wild speculations they want about the motives behind the Dalish, mages, anyone who doesn't bow to the Divine and anything they want. But heaven help you if you don't have a statement signed by at least 100 witnesses [/quote]

If nothing else, its steeled my desire to have an apostate Hawke lead a mage army against the Chantry in DA2.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nope The Dalish aren't Fereldan, but they ARE on Fereldan territory and must adhere to their laws. Their laws says its forbidden to practice magic outside the Circle. Too bad. What they do is illegal, and Templars are therefore sent after them. [/quote]

The templars are part of the Chantry, and the Chantry resides in Orlais. Technically, it was illegal for Maric and Loghain to rise up against the Orlesian Emperor since the Chantry supported the Orlesian Empire, its invasion and occupation of Ferelden. Hunting down and murdering Dalish mages may be legal for the Chantry, but that doesn't make it right. The Chantry forbids blood magic, but sanctions templars to use blood magic to locate mages who have left the Circle - their phylactery.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm... And you realize they aren't all lies? You got ONE, EIN, UN, ÉN, 1!!!! guy speculating that something MIGHT be a lie, and you all start thinking it is the truth because you can potentially use it to besmirch the Chantry. That is a sad case of twisting the evidence to show falseness. The fact is lots of Tempalrs do it, well knowing tehy will become addicted, they take it to better fight mages. I'm not saying the Chantry isn't using it as a form of control. But why the flying **** would they give their OWN soldiers a handicap in the fight?! Why? [/quote]

First, the codex you referenced was written by none other than Chantry scholar Brother Genitivi, who wrote:


[quote]Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human. [/quote]

Obviously, it has a heavy cost. He never references that it actually works, he makes a fleeting reference that the templars use it, that's all. As for going on your mini-rant there, you realize there's only one man in the entire group who was almost a templar, right? He states his own doubts over the usefulness of lyrium, admits that the Chantry uses it to keep the templars on a leash since they control the lyrium trade with the dwarves, and it obviously sickens Alistair.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin." is the exact quote. No it does NOT state specifically the Templars were sent in before the Exalted March.[/quote]

It states they were sent in after the missionaries were tossed out.

[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see... Dales are destroyed, Tevinter is attacked several times, and mages across Thedas all belong to the Chantry. Not to mention the nations Orlais has taken over (including Ferelden and the Dales) as the homeland of the Chantry. Conspiracy? You seem to be blatantly ignoring that the Chantry destroyed the Dales and trying to overthrow the Tevinter Imperium because they refused to follow the Chantry of Andraste. Missionaries were sent to the Dales, then templars when the missionaries were thrown out. And I've already covered how the Dalish withdrew from humanity because they wanted to reclaim the glory of Elvhenan and the last time they associated with humanity, the elves were enslaved and their homeland was destroyed. Furthermore, the Divine contemplates an Exalted March (according to rumors) if Orzammar harbors free mages or restricts the rights of dwarves who convert to the Orzammar Chantry.[/quote]

So, tell me again why them being mad about the sacking of a chantry turns them into megalomaniacs? The brother Burkel thing is understandable. If he is turned away, they don't care. This is the point that I'm concerned about, not prior marches, THIS.

That they then have had marches in the past, due to what you seem to think is Dalish shooing them away (I doubt that they just said "No, we don't want the chantry, just go somewhere else." I think it was something a tad more bloody, possibly involving heads on pikes) and that they were scared of the imperial chantry since it seemed to revert towards the empire that their prophet gave her life fighting to abolish is another thing.

If they (devs) make everything as one-sided as you seem to think it is, I'd be sorely disappointed. The chantry aren't without fault, but what you're making them out to be is on a wholly different scale. [/quote]

You think? Fair enough. You're welcome to think whatever you want, but I'm giving you what's been referenced and you're disputing it because you prefer something else that has no basis in the lore. Orlais claims the war started when Red Crossing was attacked - no reference to heads on pikes or any crap you imagined. Then they outlawed the elvish religion and forced the elves to either be homeless or go live in ghettos with no representation and barely any rights. The Chantry declared war on Tevinter because it said Andraste was mortal - why they completely ignore the slavery and mistreatment of elves by Tevinter is beyond me, but that's the Chantry for you. Feel free to justify that garbage any way you like. And Brother Burkel got a foothold in Orzammar with his Chantry and the Assembly was fighting against it - he clearly looked down on the dwarves religion and thought that he was bringing them enlightenment.

I don't pretend that there aren't good people who are members of the Chantry or good templars who aren't hateful of mages, but I also don't think that the Chantry is a bed of roses that should be defended when they're controlling mages, looking down on people from other religions and forcing theirs throughout Thedas, not caring about the Tevinter using slaves but going to several wars with them over their declaration that Andraste was a mortal woman, and sending in templars against the Dalish because they threw out their missionaries. This bothers me. And the Chantry treads lightly around Orzammar because they control all the lyrium throughout Thedas, which the Chantry is heavily dependent on for the templars they turned into drug addicts and the mages they imprison for having magical ability.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Abominations? Pure speculation that has no merit in the actual storyline of DA:O. One mage actually asks the Warden to attack a coven of maleficarum and another is trying to stop an apprentice who has no known ties to the Collective because that apprentice became an abomination by following teachings that his mentor prohibited.[/quote]

Yes and you have others who ask for forbidden items or shady tasks. And you run into at least two abominations on the road. where did they come from? Not from thin air, I cna tell you that. Or do you somehow think the mages collective is free of abominations by some miracle? [/quote]

You suspect a few of them may be blood mages, and have no proof any of them are abominations.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Greater good? You mean the Chantry controlling the mages to serve as little more than their slaves and personal footsoldiers? Hardly the greater good. And comparing magic to a disease is a poor example.[/quote]

No, I mena safety and security of hte general populace.
And disliek hte example as much as you like, but it still stand. And I see you didn't answer the question.

Mages are dangerous. To them and to themselves. They know it. [/quote]

I figured mentioning that the Chantry treated the mages as sub-human and took away their rights to use them as slaves and foot soldiers said it all.

So is the Chantry.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

When she tries to kill the Warden for something and gives the templars a pass for the same thing? Yes.[/quote]

Refresh my memory. I'm not certain what you're talking about. [/quote]

A Broken Circle.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except he never says he attacked them, and apparently he excels at healing arts (as in he heals the injuries of the people in your party) so there's no indication he's a warrior for the Dalish. There's no indication that he tried to attack them.[/quote]

There's no indication he didn't. You cannot just assume such things.
WE DON'T KNOW.

What we do know is that templars on the field decide if a mage is an apostate or maleficar. We do know templars went after him. We know they told Wynne they killed him (why? that we don't know). That's pretty much it. [/quote]

Wasn't your argument about the Mages Collective pure speculation? I would also add that in DA:O, Niall actually says that apostates are outright killed if they leave the Circle, which is why he can't go despite wanting to be a hermit and live away from society. Whether this was a mistake or rectonned for Anders several escape attempts, I really can't say. As for Aneirin, given that he shows no use of harmful abilities and only heals, what makes you think he even knows any destructive arts? He left at fourteen. And the templars tried to kill him, but he fortunately survived.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I can't use facts as facts? That really doesn't make any sense.[/quote]

You cna use fact, but you'd have to have them foirst.

You cannot claim as fact that you know the Devines motives. You cannot claim as fact that you know exactly why person X did Y, when you don't have acess to that information. This is simple logic. Try to refute it if you will, but it is pointless. [/quote]

I think what's pointless is trying to comprehend that sentence. I referenced some statements by David Gaider a few pages back - is that what you mean? Or my references to the codex? Or you using assumptions as facts and then attacking me for suggesting something?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish aren't part of Ferelden society. And the Hinterlands is given to them by the new ruler if they aid against the Blight. [/quote]

Everyone living in the coutnry is subject to imperial law.

What comes out of the  Hinterlands is to be seen. Personally, I hope it becomes a new elven kingdom. [/quote]

I agree about the Hinterlands.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for saying mages are inherently dangerous, I disagree. Circle mages are supposed to be learned scholars of the arcane arts. How can you say they are dangerous?[/quote]

Becasue they cna turn into abominations AT ANY MOMENT and loose any and all control of their power...which are only rendered more potent by the abomination. Remeber Connor, who is a untrained boy and the damage he wrought? [/quote]

No, they can't. Circle mages take the Harrowing to prevent that. Or are you suggesting that the Harrowing is a load of bull? If not, why take away a child from a mother who is a Circle mage? And Connor brought damage to Redcliffe because his mother was afraid of losing him to the Chantry - it never would have happened if mages weren't imprisoned for having magical ability. There's no reason the Circles can't teach mages without turning the Circles into dungeons lorded over by lyrium addicted soldiers.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The situation with blood mages and abominations can be linked to the Chantry - they condition blood mages and abominations by forcing mages to gather as much power as possible to survive against templars who, as Cullen openly admits to a mage, talk about killing mages with glee. All you do is say that because a bunch of ignorant people hate mages, they shouldn't be trusted. I disagree.[/quote]

Yes, and I know some soldiers that talk about their kills wiht glee. And cops that talk about killing pers with glee. Do you have any point with this, aside from the redicolous conspiracy theories?

The mistreatment of mages is grosly overblown by the chantry-haters here.
They make it sound like mage killing and rape are rampant - a daily occurance - and that templars don't answer for anything. Yet nothing really suggests that. In fact, everything suggest otehrwise - all the templars you meet in game are rather civil. In the tower everyone acts professionaly. Gregoir runs the tower fairly and clearly respects mages (he is friends with Irwin). Even Wynne states that the templars are the first people who treated her like a human being.
[/quote]

Men, women, and children getting killed is blown out of proportion? And given the insurrection against the templars, I think that there are plenty mages who wanted freedom from the templars and the Chantry. Mages are either killed or turned into emotionless drones who craft runes on command. Uldred made a deal with Loghain to give the Circle more independence from the Chantry. And you're suggesting to trust Wynne? She tells her apprentice that he should return to the Circle despite the fact that the templars nearly killed him (and were trying to).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Riona45]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...

I'm neautral towards the chantry in-game. I wouldn't fight it unless in got in the way with what I was doing, and also Leliana and Alistair were both once part of the chantry.

Alistair was only part of the Chantry because he was forced into it.  If you pay attention to his dialogue, you'll notice that he doesn't buy into what they are selling, necessarily, although he does believe in the Maker.

[Riona45]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Honestly, people in this thread make valid points, lets all try to be respectful, on all sides. Sorry if people see this post as stupid.

Interesting how you say this after calling out only one "side."

[Riona45]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And exactly why is it you refuse to show him any respect? As far as I recall all he has done is disagree with you. But apparently that is enough for you to start acting like a douche and even worse be unconstructive. You could at least offer something to the discussion instead of douchiness?

Says the guy who all but admitted to trolling:

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, I get as much a kick out of taunting mage supporters as mage supporters get at hating the chantry, and come on, its not like its hard to do either. And no I don't like mages, I made that clear quite early in this thread.

You're not in any position to pontificate about respectfulness vs. douchiness.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riona45 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And exactly why is it you refuse to show him any respect? As far as I recall all he has done is disagree with you. But apparently that is enough for you to start acting like a douche and even worse be unconstructive. You could at least offer something to the discussion instead of douchiness?

Says the guy who all but admitted to trolling:

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, I get as much a kick out of taunting mage supporters as mage supporters get at hating the chantry, and come on, its not like its hard to do either. And no I don't like mages, I made that clear quite early in this thread.

You're not in any position to pontificate about respectfulness vs. douchiness.

At least when I taunt I bring valid points along with it. Just in ataunting or directly hostile tone. All in the interest of provoking thoughts. Just being a douche without adding anything to the discussion is just bad style.

[Redrose2727]

I think I would much rather make the chantry reform then destroy it as I don’t think it is the epitome of evil. I really would  like to see the mages receive a little bit more freedom.

1. I’m not really in agreement with making any mages tranquil, that’s one thing which in my opinion should not be enforced unless the mage requests it; I just think it’s kind of cruel. By the way, is it used only for suspected blood Mages? Or just for the mages that they think are too incompetent to pass the Harrowing?

2. I also think that mages should be allowed to get outside more often. Maybe allow them travel to certain places where there is a chantry nearby and have them report in every now and then by a certain date etc. However until they find a foolproof way that they won’t turn into abominations, I don’t think they should be allowed to mingle with the rest of society completely. I just think it’s just too dangerous.

3. I don’t think mages should be allowed political power.

4. I definitely think they should be able to get married. If they have children I don’t think that they should be allowed to keep them, but I do think they should have regular visitation rights with them every so often.

5. As for mages policing themselves, I’m not really sure I agree with that. There is always room for abuse if that were to happen and mages are just to powerful. I really think the mages and templar’s should work out their problems and be a joint power together.

6. If templar’s are being cruel and they are caught in the act of being an a**  they most definitely should be punished, no doubt about it.

In defense of Lotion I don’t think that he’s trying to say that he supports things such as rape, murder and abuse etc. (sorry but I think it's a little rude to say those things) I think he’s just saying that every human organization that ever was is or will be will always have flaws (reality, or fantasy settings, mages or templar’s) and even if you punish abuse or lower the amount of abuse it will always be there. There will always be evil people no matter what.

Anyway, I wouldn’t really fault or blame the chantry for abusive templar’s but I would blame the chantry if they knew about said abusers and if they tried to cover it up or didn’t punish them.

Anyway, these are just my opinions, so please whoever reads and disagrees don’t be offended. I come in peace

Modifié par Redrose2727, 25 septembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You think? Fair enough. You're welcome to think whatever you want, but I'm giving you what's been referenced and you're disputing it because you prefer something else that has no basis in the lore. Orlais claims the war started when Red Crossing was attacked - no reference to heads on pikes or any crap you imagined.

I was overstating for effect. But I think that it would take more than being rude to missionaries for the chantry to react. Sending templars to protect missionaries that feel threatened is understandable. And as far as I've gathered, that was before the blight, which then lasted for about a century, where the elves just stood by and looked. It is in the core value of their religion that their way is right, they will send missionaries.

Then they outlawed the elvish religion and forced the elves to either be homeless or go live in ghettos with no representation and barely any rights.

Over the top? Yes. I said that they weren't without fault.

The Chantry declared war on Tevinter because it said Andraste was mortal - why they completely ignore the slavery and mistreatment of elves by Tevinter is beyond me, but that's the Chantry for you.

So, just saying that she was a mortal, not making mages the de-facto rulers again? You keep saying this, but I'm not buying.

Feel free to justify that garbage any way you like.

Thanks

And Brother Burkel got a foothold in Orzammar with his Chantry and the Assembly was fighting against it - he clearly looked down on the dwarves religion and thought that he was bringing them enlightenment.

Yes, most missionaries tend to think that their way is better, that is the point.

I don't pretend that there aren't good people who are members of the Chantry or good templars who aren't hateful of mages, but I also don't think that the Chantry is a bed of roses that should be defended when they're controlling mages, looking down on people from other religions and forcing theirs throughout Thedas, not caring about the Tevinter using slaves but going to several wars with them over their declaration that Andraste was a mortal woman, and sending in templars against the Dalish because they threw out their missionaries.

Longest sentence ever award to you. They are a flawed government, that do many unnecessary things. But remember, there is elven slavery in Orlais to this day, why would they react against that? The reputed mass-graves of people that converted to the Qun make me react more, even though the official story is that they let them move to Rivain. You think that your way is better than theirs too, right? And you want to bring that to them on the tip of a sword too if need be? Don't take the moral high-ground if you aim to use the very same tactics you rave against.

This bothers me. And the Chantry treads lightly around Orzammar because they control all the lyrium throughout Thedas, which the Chantry is heavily dependent on for the templars they turned into drug addicts and the mages they imprison for having magical ability.

Then why do they attack them for a razed chantry? They could do the same at any time in that case. Your point there just makes the contemplated march seem more justified, as they "thread carefully".

And you have still to tell me how it is a bad thing that they contemplate a march over the death of Burkel and the sacking of the chantry. You seem to want to ignore that and just point at what has happened in the past, avoiding the subject. I reacted against the "It is abvious that they used Burkel as an excuse", what do you mean by that? That they planned it, or that they used the reason for contemplating the march as the reason to contemplate the march?

[aaniadyen]

I'd help the chantry; anyone who locks up all these whiny mages with their teenage angst so I don't need to hear them **** is ok in my book.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:18 .