1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, no.
You don't even bother to check whom you are quoting. 

Actually, I did. I assumed you changed your screenname (like MariSkep did to tool_bot). It's not an assumption I should have made. Assumptions are very, very bad. You know, like when you assumed that the Collective was run by abominations?

I never did that. I said that abominations come from ALL mages, and if mage circles can become abominations, so can hedge mages, apostates and members of the Collective. There is no way to make oneself immune asdie from Tranquilisaton.

Ergo, some of the Collecive mages at point in time have become abominations (and more will in the future), jsut like some circle mages have become abominations.
And as we have seen, the Collective methods of policing are horribly inefficient.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

Lesson learned: assumptions are bad. Since you said you aren't the same person, I'll amend the comment.

That comment is strong, but not entirely wrong...the Collective is not immune to possesion and there are blood mages among them. And, they are incapable of effective policing.

Because putting wanted adds is NOT an effective way of policing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, tehy didn't START it, but that doesn't mean they didn't want to.
Again, I'm not offering proof, I'm offering alternate interpretations that are valid.

They're not canon, they're assumptions.

I never said it was canon, now have I? None the less, they remain valid explanations.

It was the topic of discussion. No member of the Collective is an abomination in DA:O.

No, you want to make it it the topic of the discussion, but the issue is far bigger.

Didn't you assume they weren't responsible in any way?

I'm not assuming anything - I'm providing a counter to your claims.

Saying "X could also explain Y" does not mean that it is the case. It just means that your claim of "Z caused Y" is not a fact, nor the only possible solution.

You realize I've stated they control all the Circles in Thedas, correct? And since they control the lives of every mage in Thedas outside of Tevinter, I'm not certain how you can seriously say they have no power when they get mages from the Circles they control to fight the Qunari invasion.

Differnt kind of power. Control over Circles does not equal control over everything else.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never did that. I said that abominations come from ALL mages, and if mage circles can become abominations, so can hedge mages, apostates and members of the Collective. [/quote]

You said, and I quote:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?[/quote]

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess? [/quote]

So I'm on the fail train for thinking you changed your screenname, and you completely fan fic'd abominations into the Mages Collective.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no way to make oneself immune asdie from Tranquilisaton.

Ergo, some of the Collecive mages at point in time have become abominations (and more will in the future), jsut like some circle mages have become abominations.
And as we have seen, the Collective methods of policing are horribly inefficient. [/quote]

Again, you're assuming. You assume mages will become abominations, but none of the current members of the Collective have shown to be abominations. In fact, the Dalish and the residents of Haven manage to deal with mages and non-mages living side by side. And considering that the Mages Collective asks the future Hero of Ferelden for help, I think they made the right move.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That comment is strong, but not entirely wrong...the Collective is not immune to possesion and there are blood mages among them. And, they are incapable of effective policing.

Because putting wanted adds is NOT an effective way of policing. [/quote]

Not entirely wrong? There aren't any evident abominations in the Mages Collective. We can infer that there are members who are blood mages, but no evidence that any member is or was an abomination.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never said it was canon, now have I? None the less, they remain valid explanations. [/quote]

Except those are assumptions. I can easily say that we should overthrow the Chantry because the people of Thedas need to follow the flying spagetti monster. It's not canon, but there's nothing to disprove it, either.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]LobselVith66 wrote...

It was the topic of discussion. No member of the Collective is an abomination in DA:O.[/quote]

No, you want to make it it the topic of the discussion, but the issue is far bigger. [/quote]

Actually, this was the discussion:

You said, and I quote:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?[/quote]

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess? [/quote]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]LobselVith66 wrote...

Didn't you assume they weren't responsible in any way?
[/quote]

I'm not assuming anything - I'm providing a counter to your claims.

Saying "X could also explain Y" does not mean that it is the case. It just means that your claim of "Z caused Y" is not a fact, nor the only possible solution. [/quote]

So either the Chantry is fully responsible for the deaths of those innocent people and it's reason for them to be dismantled, or they had nothing to do with it and hid the truth of the massacre that transpired because they had no ability to curtail the armies from murdering the men, women, and children?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]LobselVith66 wrote...

You realize I've stated they control all the Circles in Thedas, correct? And since they control the lives of every mage in Thedas outside of Tevinter, I'm not certain how you can seriously say they have no power when they get mages from the Circles they control to fight the Qunari invasion.[/quote]

Differnt kind of power. Control over Circles does not equal control over everything else.

[/quote]

It's one form of control that the Chantry has. They're also tied with the Orlesian Empire, since the Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Cult of Andraste as an organized religion of Orlais and led Exalted Marches to cement the worship of the Maker. The other Andrastian nations came to fully support them when they declared an Exalted March against the Dales and Tevinter. The Chantry fully supported the Orlesian Empire invading Ferelden and there are templars in the Free Marches who are said to wield a great deal of control. I see no reason to assume that the Chantry doesn't wield a great deal of power in Thedas; it's not as if the ruler of Ferelden could expel the templars from the nation or dissolve the Circle of Magi without an Exalted March being declared, after all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages of the Collective might not be abominations currently, but that does not mean tehy are safe from possession. No matter how you put it, no matter which examples you bring forth, every mage everywhere is constantly under threat of possession. There is no use denying it. The lore states as much. So it stands to reason that some mages in the collective, at some point in the past or in the future might have been or will become abominations, and once that happens, the abomination won't be contained in a tower like circle mages, but it will be free somewhere on the countryside.

The amount of mages amongst the Dalish and the Cult of Andraste is so small that they would have few troubles with abominations to begin with, add to that that they probably can't control them, so they kill them. That is the sole reason we don't see abominations in those groups. Aside from the fact that they are rare to begin with. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or is somehow immune to possession.



Also, the Chantry owns all the Circles. If Ferelden were to expel the Templars and "free" the mages. It would basically be theft of Chantry "property", and borderline heretical. So of course that would result in an Exalted March against Ferelden.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages of the Collective might not be abominations currently, but that does not mean tehy are safe from possession. No matter how you put it, no matter which examples you bring forth, every mage everywhere is constantly under threat of possession. There is no use denying it. The lore states as much. So it stands to reason that some mages in the collective, at some point in the past or in the future might have been or will become abominations, and once that happens, the abomination won't be contained in a tower like circle mages, but it will be free somewhere on the countryside.

Weren't you and Lotion arguing we should tolerate bad things happening so long as it's within a certain acceptable range? Why doesn't that apply here?

The amount of mages amongst the Dalish and the Cult of Andraste is so small that they would have few troubles with abominations to begin with, add to that that they probably can't control them, so they kill them. That is the sole reason we don't see abominations in those groups. Aside from the fact that they are rare to begin with. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or is somehow immune to possession.

Wasn't one of your arguments that even one stray abomination is to big a risk?

And we already know there are methods more effective then what the Circle teaches to prevent possession. (We see how easily Morrigan is able to brush aside spirits.) While I understand we can't assume the Dalish have these, they are very successful at preserving their mages and they seem to surpass anything Circle Mages can do.

Also, the Chantry owns all the Circles. If Ferelden were to expel the Templars and "free" the mages. It would basically be theft of Chantry "property", and borderline heretical. So of course that would result in an Exalted March against Ferelden.

Theft of Chantry property? No. It would be undermining their control and authority in an area they feel the Maker has given them complete control. And it would also be just another excuse to force a monarch in line.

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...
Weren't you and Lotion arguing we should tolerate bad things happening so long as it's within a certain acceptable range? Why doesn't that apply here?

Because a single stray abomination is not acceptable at all.

tool_bot wrote...

The amount of mages amongst the Dalish and the Cult of Andraste is so small that they would have few troubles with abominations to begin with, add to that that they probably can't control them, so they kill them. That is the sole reason we don't see abominations in those groups. Aside from the fact that they are rare to begin with. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or is somehow immune to possession.

Wasn't one of your arguments that even one stray abomination is to big a risk?

And we already know there are methods more effective then what the Circle teaches to prevent possession. (We see how easily Morrigan is able to brush aside spirits.) While I understand we can't assume the Dalish have these, they are very successful at preserving their mages and they seem to surpass anything Circle Mages can do.

Uhm... How exactly do we know they are more effective? We don't have any proof that they are more effective at all actually. Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense. Morrigan is able to resist possession... Well good for her. So has Irving been, and he is considerably older than her, so he has been under the threat of possession far logner than her, so evidently the circle training is adequate. Also, we don't know anything about how many apostates falls victim to possession, we just know that they do, and when they do the result is unacceptable.

tool_bot wrote...
Theft of Chantry property? No. It would be undermining their control and authority in an area they feel the Maker has given them complete control. And it would also be just another excuse to force a monarch in line.

Well, since the Chantry is the founder of the Circles it is theirs decisision wether or not they want to let the mages go, not some monarch in some insignificant country. The Chantry is in its full rights to deny the monarch in this case. The monarch of Ferelden asked a request of the Chantry (not an order) and the Chantry denied the request.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages of the Collective might not be abominations currently, but that does not mean tehy are safe from possession. No matter how you put it, no matter which examples you bring forth, every mage everywhere is constantly under threat of possession. There is no use denying it. The lore states as much. So it stands to reason that some mages in the collective, at some point in the past or in the future might have been or will become abominations, and once that happens, the abomination won't be contained in a tower like circle mages, but it will be free somewhere on the countryside.

Technically, everyone in Thedas can become possessed (with the exception of the dwarves). It's merely that only mages can turn into abominations if possessed. On that line of reasoning, every person in Thedas is a potential danger to the other, because a demon can possess them. They can even inhabit dead bodies.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The amount of mages amongst the Dalish and the Cult of Andraste is so small that they would have few troubles with abominations to begin with, add to that that they probably can't control them, so they kill them. That is the sole reason we don't see abominations in those groups. Aside from the fact that they are rare to begin with. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or is somehow immune to possession.

It is evidence that templars aren't necessary to deal with abominations, since the Dalish and the Disciples can regulate their own without Chantry oversight.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, the Chantry owns all the Circles. If Ferelden were to expel the Templars and "free" the mages. It would basically be theft of Chantry "property", and borderline heretical. So of course that would result in an Exalted March against Ferelden.

Exactly. That's the kind of power the Chantry has: they own and control Ferelden citizens. Essentially, any mage who desired freedom for their own would want to emancipate the mages from slavery under the Chantry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...
Weren't you and Lotion arguing we should tolerate bad things happening so long as it's within a certain acceptable range? Why doesn't that apply here?

Because a single stray abomination is not acceptable at all.

Don't the Dalish and the Disciples prove that Chantry oversight isn't necessary to handle abominations? Considering the failure of the templars to kill Uldred and the fact they were completely unprepared, while the Dalish have wandered for centuries without any apparent incident and the Disciples may have been around at least 900 years.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Wasn't one of your arguments that even one stray abomination is to big a risk?

And we already know there are methods more effective then what the Circle teaches to prevent possession. (We see how easily Morrigan is able to brush aside spirits.) While I understand we can't assume the Dalish have these, they are very successful at preserving their mages and they seem to surpass anything Circle Mages can do.

Uhm... How exactly do we know they are more effective? We don't have any proof that they are more effective at all actually. Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense. Morrigan is able to resist possession... Well good for her. So has Irving been, and he is considerably older than her, so he has been under the threat of possession far logner than her, so evidently the circle training is adequate. Also, we don't know anything about how many apostates falls victim to possession, we just know that they do, and when they do the result is unacceptable.

I think tool_bot meant Morrigan's ability to discern that she was in the Fade as an apostate while Wynne wasn't able to despite all her training as a Circle mage. The existance of the many Dalish clans under the guidance of mages and the co-existance of mages with non-mages among the Disciples, who may have been around for at least 900 years, illustrates that the templars and the Chantry are unnecessary.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Theft of Chantry property? No. It would be undermining their control and authority in an area they feel the Maker has given them complete control. And it would also be just another excuse to force a monarch in line.

Well, since the Chantry is the founder of the Circles it is theirs decisision wether or not they want to let the mages go, not some monarch in some insignificant country. The Chantry is in its full rights to deny the monarch in this case. The monarch of Ferelden asked a request of the Chantry (not an order) and the Chantry denied the request.

Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Chantry, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi. Considering that no evidence is given at the end of DA:O that the emancipation of the mages would even be an issue (especially in the US ending where the ruler actually orders Greagoir to allow the mages to govern themselves), it does bother me that now the ruler has no say in the mages gaining their freedom.

If we go according to how you defined the relationship, the mages are slaves to the Chantry. It's an area where they have control and authority over living people. While they may control the Circle and the mages, it isn't morally right that they do. Regardless, Orzammar gains a Circle independent of the Chantry.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because a single stray abomination is not acceptable at all.

Glad to see you are being consistent. But if it's given that we can expect any single abomination to wreck the kind of havoc Connor does why don't we see this with the Dalish, the Collective and hedge mages? Especially with the Collective. They've gone so far as to bribe 'corrupt' Templars for more freedom and they operate mostly outside of the Circle Tower. You'd expect some sort of calamity.

Using your bad things are ok so long as they're withing a certain gain/loss ratio, the Collective is doing a magnificent job.

Uhm... How exactly do we know they are more effective? We don't have any proof that they are more effective at all actually. Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense. Morrigan is able to resist possession... Well good for her. So has Irving been, and he is considerably older than her, so he has been under the threat of possession far logner than her, so evidently the circle training is adequate. Also, we don't know anything about how many apostates falls victim to possession, we just know that they do, and when they do the result is unacceptable.

Couple points.

1) It isn't just the mages. We see the Sten do it to just as well. And he has no experience with magic of that nature. It's just how disciplined his mind is. Morrigan learned everything she did away from humans in general and experimented with magic very alien to anything the circle uses.
2) We know just one abomination is to many. And we only see two do what everyone's afraid abominations will do (Connor and Uldred). Obviously the number can't be all that high since whenever a Templar comes upon an abomination in full swing, they're powerless to stop it. (By full swing I mean something like connor.)

Well, since the Chantry is the founder of the Circles it is theirs decisision wether or not they want to let the mages go, not some monarch in some insignificant country. The Chantry is in its full rights to deny the monarch in this case. The monarch of Ferelden asked a request of the Chantry (not an order) and the Chantry denied the request.

Was it the Chantry that founded the Circles?

Anyway, it doesn't matter as they are still the lord's or king's subjects and were likely drawn upon from his people. Isn't a lord supposed to look out for his subjects?

[tool_bot]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That comment is strong, but not entirely wrong...the Collective is not immune to possesion and there are blood mages among them. And, they are incapable of effective policing.

Because putting wanted adds is NOT an effective way of policing.

So's hiding behind a giant metal door and waiting for an army to show up to slaughter everything that breathes.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Technically, everyone in Thedas can become possessed (with the exception of the dwarves). It's merely that only mages can turn into abominations if possessed. On that line of reasoning, every person in Thedas is a potential danger to the other, because a demon can possess them. They can even inhabit dead bodies.

Demons are drawn to a mage like moths to a flame. Normal people are just dirt laying on the ground besides the flame compared. And when a demon possesses a normal person it isn't even nearly as powerful as it is when possessing a mage.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It is evidence that templars aren't necessary to deal with abominations, since the Dalish and the Disciples can regulate their own without Chantry oversight.

The Qunari are evidence that Templars specifically aren't neccesary. Nobody here says the Templars specifically is neccesary. Just that someone to oversee the mages are. And other mages just can't be trusted with that task. Also as I now have mentioned many times, the way the Dalish keep control of it is highly suspect. Many apprentices but once the first is chosen these apprentices simply disappear? Very suspect. Also you can hardly compare those two groups with the Circle. The circle mages far outnumber both of those groups, of course the risk of possession in the circle is a larger threat because there are simply more mages there.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Exactly. That's the kind of power the Chantry has: they own and control Ferelden citizens. Essentially, any mage who desired freedom for their own would want to emancipate the mages from slavery under the Chantry.

Except it isn't neccesarily a Ferelden citizen who studies in the tower. Children picked up in the Free Marches could be sent to the Tower in Ferelden. The Circle is an international institution just like the Chantry.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Don't the Dalish and the Disciples prove that Chantry oversight isn't necessary to handle abominations? Considering the failure of the templars to kill Uldred and the fact they were completely unprepared, while the Dalish have wandered for centuries without any apparent incident and the Disciples may have been around at least 900 years.

If anything similar to Broken Circle happenewd to a Dalish clan it would be 2 abominations attacking the Clan at most, not a horde like the one who befell the Templars at the tower. Even then I doubt the Dalish would fare any better.... And we don't know how many abomination incidents have happened to the Cult in those 900 years. To say there havn't been any is just as much speculation as us saying that it has happened. None of us got any proof of either. Though the lore would suggest that there have been at least one such incident.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think tool_bot meant Morrigan's ability to discern that she was in the Fade as an apostate while Wynne wasn't able to despite all her training as a Circle mage. The existance of the many Dalish clans under the guidance of mages and the co-existance of mages with non-mages among the Disciples, who may have been around for at least 900 years, illustrates that the templars and the Chantry are unnecessary.

Well willpower changes dramatically from person to person and it is a hard thing to condition. Morrigan might just have an exceptional will to see through the Demons deception. Or she was just lucky. Every person can at some point realize he/she is dreaming.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Chantry, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi. Considering that no evidence is given at the end of DA:O that the emancipation of the mages would even be an issue (especially in the US ending where the ruler actually orders Greagoir to allow the mages to govern themselves), it does bother me that now the ruler has no say in the mages gaining their freedom.

Well Gaider did suggest that even though the Chantry said no, that it wasn't the last that would be heard of this. So the monarch got something up his/her sleeve. And perhaps the monarch at the time of the celebration thought that even the Chantry would realize the mages' contribution to the war and would allow the emancipation, and was a bit overconfident in his/her own authority.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If we go according to how you defined the relationship, the mages are slaves to the Chantry. It's an area where they have control and authority over living people. While they may control the Circle and the mages, it isn't morally right that they do. Regardless, Orzammar gains a Circle independent of the Chantry.

And I'd say it isn't morally right to be a potential walking timebomb and still demand freedom..... No its not a desireable situation but it is a neccesity. And Orzammar doesn't neccesarily get a Circle at all. And it stands to reason that if you allow both the circle to establish there AND the chantry, the circle won't be free there for long, even though Brother Burkel gets killed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That comment is strong, but not entirely wrong...the Collective is not immune to possesion and there are blood mages among them. And, they are incapable of effective policing.

Because putting wanted adds is NOT an effective way of policing.

So's hiding behind a giant metal door and waiting for an army to show up to slaughter everything that breathes.

At least they try. And at least they contain the demons. The collective just doesn't give a damn. They put out a bounty and go about their merry way.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That comment is strong, but not entirely wrong...the Collective is not immune to possesion and there are blood mages among them. And, they are incapable of effective policing.

Because putting wanted adds is NOT an effective way of policing.

So's hiding behind a giant metal door and waiting for an army to show up to slaughter everything that breathes.

At least they try. And at least they contain the demons. The collective just doesn't give a damn. They put out a bounty and go about their merry way.

I suppose tracking a group of maleficars to their location isn't 'trying.'

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tracking them and let some random ****** who just happens to pick up the note from the bag deal with it. And ONLY because these particular Maleficar would draw the attention of the Templars, which the Collective mage didn't want. No, that's simply not good enough.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tracking them and let some random ****** who just happens to pick up the note from the bag deal with it. And ONLY because these particular Maleficar would draw the attention of the Templars, which the Collective mage didn't want. No, that's simply not good enough.

How is that not good enough? Did the Templars have any idea who these people were? TheCollective found someone in their midst breaking the rules they set for themselves, they tracked them to where they performed their magic and requested that a member of the collective deal with them. (unless I'm mistaken the note was directed towards other members of the collective)

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

Hell that just about proves my point. The collective is capable of going beyond it's own borders, tracking down individuals they have nothing to do with and have the influence to find those capable of bringing them down with little fuss and before the situation escalates.

I say that's mighty fine policing.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

All the maleficar in Thy Brother's Killer. And the liasons provide the information to the Grey Warden for the issue to be resolved.

According to the codex entry The Mages Collective:

Despite the Loyalists' grasp on the mages' political community, many Libertarians and Aequitarians have begun to see eye to eye with respect to the Chantry's role in a mage's daily life. A growing number of mages, particularly those whose magic never strays from the Maker's mandate, feel that the Chantry's constant oversight is a burden upon their creativity and their very will, and one that hinders their ability to do their work.

These mages, along with a number of hedge wizards who work their arts outside the Chantry's influence, have formed a shadow-guild of sorts, a mages' collective, wherein members can submit requests and have them seen to without judgement. This collective manages to work in relative secrecy, their members discreet and their clients anonymous. As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.

Still, practicing magic outside of the influence of the Chantry is a dream for some and a dangerous notion for others, and many believe that it is only a matter of time before the veil of secrecy is lifted and the mages' collective is brought to swift and brutal justice.

--From A Treatise on Magic and Politics, by First Enchanter Josephus.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tracking them and let some random ****** who just happens to pick up the note from the bag deal with it. And ONLY because these particular Maleficar would draw the attention of the Templars, which the Collective mage didn't want. No, that's simply not good enough.[/quote]

They're getting the help of the Grey Warden, not some random stranger off the street.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, everyone in Thedas can become possessed (with the exception of the dwarves). It's merely that only mages can turn into abominations if possessed. On that line of reasoning, every person in Thedas is a potential danger to the other, because a demon can possess them. They can even inhabit dead bodies.[/quote]

Demons are drawn to a mage like moths to a flame. Normal people are just dirt laying on the ground besides the flame compared. And when a demon possesses a normal person it isn't even nearly as powerful as it is when possessing a mage. [/quote]

So mages should be properly instructed in the use of their powers to prevent that, instead of being imprisoned for having magical ability. I don't think anyone has said otherwise; people have argued against Chantry and templar oversight on the issue.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It is evidence that templars aren't necessary to deal with abominations, since the Dalish and the Disciples can regulate their own without Chantry oversight.[/quote]
The Qunari are evidence that Templars specifically aren't neccesary. Nobody here says the Templars specifically is neccesary. Just that someone to oversee the mages are. And other mages just can't be trusted with that task. Also as I now have mentioned many times, the way the Dalish keep control of it is highly suspect. Many apprentices but once the first is chosen these apprentices simply disappear? Very suspect. Also you can hardly compare those two groups with the Circle. The circle mages far outnumber both of those groups, of course the risk of possession in the circle is a larger threat because there are simply more mages there. [/quote]

Because the developers of the game only include the characters you can speak with; besides main characters and characters tied to the plot, virtually everyone else is a bystander that often times repeat the same lines (like in Lothering). There's no evidence to suggest they get rid of the other magically inclined elves.

As for mages governing themselves, it's an issue of opinion. The ruler of Ferelden thinks the mages have earned the right to look after themselves, regardless of what the Chantry thinks. And they do - the Dalish clans and the independent Circle of Orzammar.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Exactly. That's the kind of power the Chantry has: they own and control Ferelden citizens. Essentially, any mage who desired freedom for their own would want to emancipate the mages from slavery under the Chantry.
[/quote]
Except it isn't neccesarily a Ferelden citizen who studies in the tower. Children picked up in the Free Marches could be sent to the Tower in Ferelden. The Circle is an international institution just like the Chantry. [/quote]

Yes, you have a point: they have slaves all across Thedas.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Don't the Dalish and the Disciples prove that Chantry oversight isn't necessary to handle abominations? Considering the failure of the templars to kill Uldred and the fact they were completely unprepared, while the Dalish have wandered for centuries without any apparent incident and the Disciples may have been around at least 900 years.[/quote]
If anything similar to Broken Circle happenewd to a Dalish clan it would be 2 abominations attacking the Clan at most, not a horde like the one who befell the Templars at the tower. Even then I doubt the Dalish would fare any better.... And we don't know how many abomination incidents have happened to the Cult in those 900 years. To say there havn't been any is just as much speculation as us saying that it has happened. None of us got any proof of either. Though the lore would suggest that there have been at least one such incident. [/quote]

Except you're assuming there are only two magically inclined elves among the Dalish. There's no evidence from lore or the game that the elves do away with other mages after the the Keeper chooses the First.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think tool_bot meant Morrigan's ability to discern that she was in the Fade as an apostate while Wynne wasn't able to despite all her training as a Circle mage. The existance of the many Dalish clans under the guidance of mages and the co-existance of mages with non-mages among the Disciples, who may have been around for at least 900 years, illustrates that the templars and the Chantry are unnecessary.[/quote]
Well willpower changes dramatically from person to person and it is a hard thing to condition. Morrigan might just have an exceptional will to see through the Demons deception. Or she was just lucky. Every person can at some point realize he/she is dreaming. [/quote]

Or it could be an issue of the magical training that Morrigan received.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Chantry, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi. Considering that no evidence is given at the end of DA:O that the emancipation of the mages would even be an issue (especially in the US ending where the ruler actually orders Greagoir to allow the mages to govern themselves), it does bother me that now the ruler has no say in the mages gaining their freedom. [/quote]
Well Gaider did suggest that even though the Chantry said no, that it wasn't the last that would be heard of this. So the monarch got something up his/her sleeve. And perhaps the monarch at the time of the celebration thought that even the Chantry would realize the mages' contribution to the war and would allow the emancipation, and was a bit overconfident in his/her own authority. [/quote]

It seems odd that the Warden is given a royal boon that doesn't happen, and Awakening and none of the DLC even reference this.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If we go according to how you defined the relationship, the mages are slaves to the Chantry. It's an area where they have control and authority over living people. While they may control the Circle and the mages, it isn't morally right that they do. Regardless, Orzammar gains a Circle independent of the Chantry. [/quote]
And I'd say it isn't morally right to be a potential walking timebomb and still demand freedom..... No its not a desireable situation but it is a neccesity. And Orzammar doesn't neccesarily get a Circle at all. And it stands to reason that if you allow both the circle to establish there AND the chantry, the circle won't be free there for long, even though Brother Burkel gets killed.[/quote]

Except I can reference the Dalish and the Disciples as examples of mages living among groups of people without magical ability and no templar oversight. While you might argue numbers among the Dalish, we have no way of validating that information, and there are plenty of mages among the Disciples (perhaps even Kolgrim himself, given his ability to know whether the Ashes are destroyed or not). It's evidence that mages don't need to be under Chantry control to keep things in check.

And the possibility of the independent Circle in Orzammar is the same as choosing whether the werewolves or the elves aid the Warden in the Blight, or deciding whether Redcliffe will be saved or abandoned: if the Warden acts on it, it'll happen. An independent Circle of Orzammar can transpire.

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

Hell that just about proves my point. The collective is capable of going beyond it's own borders, tracking down individuals they have nothing to do with and have the influence to find those capable of bringing them down with little fuss and before the situation escalates.

I say that's mighty fine policing.

Uhm.... You don't know squat about this quest do you? The only reason the collective mage knows ANYTHING about these Maleficars is because they are practicing their magic in close proximity to his own hideout. So the only thing the collective is capable off is looking outside their own windows.... So to speak...And they leave a note in a bag, which may or may not ever be read. That is NOT fine policing.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

Hell that just about proves my point. The collective is capable of going beyond it's own borders, tracking down individuals they have nothing to do with and have the influence to find those capable of bringing them down with little fuss and before the situation escalates.

I say that's mighty fine policing.

Uhm.... You don't know squat about this quest do you? The only reason the collective mage knows ANYTHING about these Maleficars is because they are practicing their magic in close proximity to his own hideout. So the only thing the collective is capable off is looking outside their own windows.... So to speak...And they leave a note in a bag, which may or may not ever be read. That is NOT fine policing.

It passes the Templar standard.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
They're getting the help of the Grey Warden, not some random stranger off the street.

Who may or may not even bother to help them out. And the Warden IS a stranger to them.

LobselVith8 wrote...
So mages should be properly instructed in the use of their powers to prevent that, instead of being imprisoned for having magical ability. I don't think anyone has said otherwise; people have argued against Chantry and templar oversight on the issue.

The mages ARE getting proper instructions at the Tower. And before either of you pull out that Broken Circle incident. NO ONE could ever have prepared for that mother of all ****storms to happen. But now since the situation has been dealt with, you can be certain that they will be prepared next time some mage gets cranky and want freedom to threaten the world. And even though they had not prepared they did contain it and saved the lives of many. (and no it wasn't Wynne as she didn't have the barrier up the whole time)

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because the developers of the game only include the characters you can speak with; besides main characters and characters tied to the plot, virtually everyone else is a bystander that often times repeat the same lines (like in Lothering). There's no evidence to suggest they get rid of the other magically inclined elves.

I'm quite sure the codex says the Dalish clans never have more than 2 trained mages. Yet Zathrian's First (I forget her name) mentions that she was one amongst several apprentices. You see no other mages in the clan, and (IIRC) the codex says there are no more than 2 mages. What then happened to the other apprentices?

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for mages governing themselves, it's an issue of opinion. The ruler of Ferelden thinks the mages have earned the right to look after themselves, regardless of what the Chantry thinks. And they do - the Dalish clans and the independent Circle of Orzammar.

Tevinter Imperium is a good example of why mages should NOT govern themselves...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, you have a point: they have slaves all across Thedas.

You call them slaves. I call them scholars... who shoots fireballs....

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except you're assuming there are only two magically inclined elves among the Dalish. There's no evidence from lore or the game that the elves do away with other mages after the the Keeper chooses the First.

Look at previous point.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Or it could be an issue of the magical training that Morrigan received.

So it is all speculation from both our parts? So lets just leave it at that and admit that we can't be certain that it is either?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except I can reference the Dalish and the Disciples as examples of mages living among groups of people without magical ability and no templar oversight. While you might argue numbers among the Dalish, we have no way of validating that information, and there are plenty of mages among the Disciples (perhaps even Kolgrim himself, given his ability to know whether the Ashes are destroyed or not). It's evidence that mages don't need to be under Chantry control to keep things in check.

We don't got anything to validate any of your claims about either of these groups not getting any abominations either.... So what is your point? That it is useless to bring those two groups up as examples? And again no one is saying it HAS to be Chantry, just that there have to be SOME sort of control, which aren't other mages. But as it is the Chantry which got control right now, there is no reason to change that as the ramification would be dire.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Maleficar in this quest is not part of the collective, and the note is directed towards any "hardened individual" who picks up the note. Leaving a note instead of taking immediate action is not good enough.

Hell that just about proves my point. The collective is capable of going beyond it's own borders, tracking down individuals they have nothing to do with and have the influence to find those capable of bringing them down with little fuss and before the situation escalates.

I say that's mighty fine policing.

Uhm.... You don't know squat about this quest do you? The only reason the collective mage knows ANYTHING about these Maleficars is because they are practicing their magic in close proximity to his own hideout. So the only thing the collective is capable off is looking outside their own windows.... So to speak...And they leave a note in a bag, which may or may not ever be read. That is NOT fine policing.

It passes the Templar standard.

You mean when they kill the abomination during the Harrowing before it can kill anyone else than the mage. Or when a squad of Templars are sent out to kill an abomination which is the handiwork of some apostate who didn't have the spine to clean up his own mess (or he IS his own mess)? If you are refering to the Broken Circle incident, then look at my point in my previous post.

[tool_bot]

Ok, that was overly flippant.



My memory of the quest isn't terribly great but they really do seem to be doing a much better job then you are giving them credit for. Especially considering they work outside of Chantry supervision and have prevented any sort of outbreak, which would no doubt rain hellfire and brimestone on them once the Chantry found out. I really don't see how you can view their success in a poorer light then the templars.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The mages ARE getting proper instructions at the Tower. And before either of you pull out that Broken Circle incident. NO ONE could ever have prepared for that mother of all ****storms to happen. But now since the situation has been dealt with, you can be certain that they will be prepared next time some mage gets cranky and want freedom to threaten the world.

One mage? Sure. Several? Not a chance.

I'm quite sure the codex says the Dalish clans never have more than 2 trained mages. Yet Zathrian's First (I forget her name) mentions that she was one amongst several apprentices. You see no other mages in the clan, and (IIRC) the codex says there are no more than 2 mages. What then happened to the other apprentices?

Good question. Ask a dev. The answer might prove very useful.

Tevinter Imperium is a good example of why mages should NOT govern themselves...

Any human government is a good example why humans should not govern themselves.

You call them slaves. I call them scholars... who shoots fireballs....

God I hope that's not in job description. The slave part. Fireballs would be badass.

So it is all speculation from both our parts? So lets just leave it at that and admit that we can't be certain that it is either?

It has to be the training Morrigan received. If we accept that magic is a discipline and that it requires discipline to manipulate the Fade, you can't just have 'picked it up' anywhere.

But then again, fantasy games are fond of 'only the chosen one can do this for no apparent reason!!11!' so you might be right.

And again no one is saying it HAS to be Chantry, just that there have to be SOME sort of control, which aren't other mages.

Why not?

But as it is the Chantry which got control right now, there is no reason to change that as the ramification would be dire.

Back to this bs again.  Jesus, people really don't deserve the time of day.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You mean when they kill the abomination during the Harrowing before it can kill anyone else than the mage. Or when a squad of Templars are sent out to kill an abomination which is the handiwork of some apostate who didn't have the spine to clean up his own mess (or he IS his own mess)? If you are refering to the Broken Circle incident, then look at my point in my previous post.

Ya, mate, you won't get far with me if your point is they'll jump on a dagger if someone tells them to. That in no way makes them a more effective police force. Dedicated sure but not in anyway better.

And about the Harrowing, let me ask you something. Why make the mage undergo a Harrowing if the tower is enough to contain abominations? Why not leave him as an apprentice and away from the more complicated and dangerous feats of magic if the concern is he'll learn something he can't control?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because by undergoing the Harrowing it is only that mage alone which is endangered. If an abomination is allowed to run rampart through the tower it would cost several mages and Templars their lives. Rather have it happen in a controlled enviroment where the threat to human lives is minimal.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .