1503 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They're getting the help of the Grey Warden, not some random stranger off the street.[/quote]
Who may or may not even bother to help them out. And the Warden IS a stranger to them. [/quote]

The Grey Wardens do have a reputation across Thedas, they are fighting the darkspawn in Ostagar with the King, and the Blackstone Irregulars mention that everyone is taking about the Warden.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So mages should be properly instructed in the use of their powers to prevent that, instead of being imprisoned for having magical ability. I don't think anyone has said otherwise; people have argued against Chantry and templar oversight on the issue.[/quote]
The mages ARE getting proper instructions at the Tower. And before either of you pull out that Broken Circle incident. NO ONE could ever have prepared for that mother of all ****storms to happen. But now since the situation has been dealt with, you can be certain that they will be prepared next time some mage gets cranky and want freedom to threaten the world. And even though they had not prepared they did contain it and saved the lives of many. (and no it wasn't Wynne as she didn't have the barrier up the whole time) [/quote]

Mages live in fear at the Circle. That was the reason behind the revolt, to toss out the templars and gain freedom for the Circle of Ferelden. The inability of the templars to handle it, while a Mage Warden could clean up the mess that Greagoir couldn't, makes it more clear that mages can govern themselves: the ruler of Ferelden admits as much in the royal ceremony at the end of DA:O.

And the incident wouldn't have happened if mages were governing themselves - despite hundreds of years of templars culling the Circles, mages will always fight for freedom, it's universal. The fact that we're debating this is a testament to the fact that there will always be people who believe that mages should be given their freedom, and no debate is ever going to change that.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Because the developers of the game only include the characters you can speak with; besides main characters and characters tied to the plot, virtually everyone else is a bystander that often times repeat the same lines (like in Lothering). There's no evidence to suggest they get rid of the other magically inclined elves.[/quote]

I'm quite sure the codex says the Dalish clans never have more than 2 trained mages. Yet Zathrian's First (I forget her name) mentions that she was one amongst several apprentices. You see no other mages in the clan, and (IIRC) the codex says there are no more than 2 mages. What then happened to the other apprentices? [/quote]

The codex for the Dalish mentions the fall of the Dales. Are you referencing the summary of the Keeper specialization? It says:

"Every Dalish clan has a keeper, a wise mentor dedicated to preserving the elves' ancient lore. It is exceptionally uncommon for a keeper to teach anyone other than a fellow clan member about the unique Dalish understanding of nature magic, which focuses on control of the roots beneath the earth."

The Dalish are also hunted by templars.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for mages governing themselves, it's an issue of opinion. The ruler of Ferelden thinks the mages have earned the right to look after themselves, regardless of what the Chantry thinks. And they do - the Dalish clans and the independent Circle of Orzammar.[/quote]
Tevinter Imperium is a good example of why mages should NOT govern themselves... [/quote]

There are plenty of examples why they can, though: There's also the Dales, the Disciples of Andraste, the Dalish, the original elves of Arlathan and Thedas...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, you have a point: they have slaves all across Thedas.[/quote]
You call them slaves. I call them scholars... who shoots fireballs.... [/quote]

Scholars? You were the one who said they were Chantry property.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except I can reference the Dalish and the Disciples as examples of mages living among groups of people without magical ability and no templar oversight. While you might argue numbers among the Dalish, we have no way of validating that information, and there are plenty of mages among the Disciples (perhaps even Kolgrim himself, given his ability to know whether the Ashes are destroyed or not). It's evidence that mages don't need to be under Chantry control to keep things in check.[/quote]

We don't got anything to validate any of your claims about either of these groups not getting any abominations either.... So what is your point? That it is useless to bring those two groups up as examples? And again no one is saying it HAS to be Chantry, just that there have to be SOME sort of control, which aren't other mages. But as it is the Chantry which got control right now, there is no reason to change that as the ramification would be dire.[/quote]

There is plenty of reason to change it; there will always be revolts as long as the Chantry treats the mages as their property, as you termed it, and no one should own another person. I'm arguing that Chantry and templar oversight isn't necessary; you're arguing that some mages can turn into abominations. The ruler of Ferelden admits that the mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens do have a reputation across Thedas, they are fighting the darkspawn in Ostagar with the King, and the Blackstone Irregulars mention that everyone is taking about the Warden.

That doesn't change the fact that they are leaving every single task they got for him up to chance. They just figured that since the GW's were in town maybe they could clean up their mess.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages live in fear at the Circle. That was the reason behind the revolt, to toss out the templars and gain freedom for the Circle of Ferelden. The inability of the templars to handle it, while a Mage Warden could clean up the mess that Greagoir couldn't, makes it more clear that mages can govern themselves: the ruler of Ferelden admits as much in the royal ceremony at the end of DA:O.

Uhm... A Templar Warden can also take care of the problem.............. You realize the ONLY reason the Warden can take care of the problem is because of a neat little thing called "plot shield".

LobselVith8 wrote...
And the incident wouldn't have happened if mages were governing themselves - despite hundreds of years of templars culling the Circles, mages will always fight for freedom, it's universal. The fact that we're debating this is a testament to the fact that there will always be people who believe that mages should be given their freedom, and no debate is ever going to change that.

The fact that we are debating this is equally proof of that there will be some people who thinks that mages got a responsibility to the rest of the world. And while not perfect, the system in order works.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The codex for the Dalish mentions the fall of the Dales. Are you referencing the summary of the Keeper specialization? It says:

"Every Dalish clan has a keeper, a wise mentor dedicated to preserving the elves' ancient lore. It is exceptionally uncommon for a keeper to teach anyone other than a fellow clan member about the unique Dalish understanding of nature magic, which focuses on control of the roots beneath the earth."

Nope it isn't the fall of the Dales entry. Might just have been mentioned in-game, or maybe its the wikia I read it from.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish are also hunted by templars.

That's because they are technically apostates as long as they aren't in their own country.

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are plenty of examples why they can, though: There's also the Dales, the Disciples of Andraste, the Dalish, the original elves of Arlathan and Thedas...

We got no proof whatsoever that there were no kind of oversight at all in any of these cases. Nor do we have proof that there were. So all of those examples are very poor, and can't be used in the argument for or against supervision of magics.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Scholars? You were the one who said they were Chantry property.

The Circle as an institution is. The people within it are just lifetime members. And for so-called "slaves" they are better off than most every peasant in the rest of Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...
There is plenty of reason to change it; there will always be revolts as long as the Chantry treats the mages as their property, as you termed it, and no one should own another person. I'm arguing that Chantry and templar oversight isn't necessary; you're arguing that some mages can turn into abominations. The ruler of Ferelden admits that the mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

I'm also arguing that the Mages of the Circle doesn't even have it half as bad as you try to make it out to be. The only bad thing for them is the denial of keeping their children and limited acces to outside areas.

[Reaverwind]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages live in fear at the Circle. That was the reason behind the revolt, to toss out the templars and gain freedom for the Circle of Ferelden. The inability of the templars to handle it, while a Mage Warden could clean up the mess that Greagoir couldn't, makes it more clear that mages can govern themselves

No. All the situation at the Circle did was prove how royally mages can fubar situations.

[Daerog]

Not all mages live in fear at the Circle. Some do, sure, but not all. Probably some general fear of the templars, but the templars in game were pretty civil. In Witch Hunt, the mage even complained that the head templar while Gregoir was gone acted like his mother when the templar asked the mage to be careful while he went off with the Warden.

Mages can govern themselves. The Tevinter Imperium has always had mage rulers. However, that is the point in a way. Some oversight is desired to ensure that what happened in the past doesn't happen again. Should this oversight be the Chantry? Currently, they are the only international organization that can do this. By privatizing the Circles to their respective Kings/Queens and such, the Circle of Magi is then shattered, as it is an international organization. So, until another can be formed, the Chantry is the only one that can offer oversight. The enchanters still make the policy for the Circles.

Don't know why the Collective was picked on earlier, that small organization seemed nice. They couldn't do a lot on their own without drawing too much attention, but their stated goal is to improve the image of magic and not have the Chantry work so hard on its own.

As for the ruler of Fereldan saying the mages have earened their right to govern themselves, I just found that to be completely stupid, personally. I don't see how they did. There is a revolt, and then the mage Warden comes in to clean up. How does that mean they earned it? A senior enchanter led the revolt, someone who is part of running the Circle, and then someone who doesn't help run the Circle comes in to clean up. So, how did the Circle earn it? My canon mage picks the Grey Warden monument every time so far. Just my opinion.

[Sir JK]

Uhm, I'd just like to point one thing out very clearly: the only mage organisation where we know how mages are trained and prepared is the circle. We barely know anything about how other organisations handle magic.

Circle: Harrows and watches.

Dalish: Not enough data

Collective: Not enough data

Qunari: Keeps their mages leashed and in cages, cuts out their tounges and considers them to be little more than beasts of war. Other than that, not enough data.

Cult of Andraste: Not enough data

Pre-templar humanity: Not enough data



We simply don't know how any of those other groups treat their mages at all. You might be right in that the Templar's aren't as necessary as the chantry makes them out to be. But you may also be wrong. There's no right and wrong here, no facts. Just opinion.

Using the collective or the Dalish as examples to functioning non-templar controlled magic communities is problematic... since you have no idea why that is.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well about the Tevinter Imperium there is the story about the Magisters often mutated beyond recognition of kith and kind. Which seems to hint heavily at the fact that many of the Magisters of old Tevinter was in fact abominations.

[Daerog]

Sir JK wrote...

Collective: Not enough data
 

Some Collective mages are from the Circle. Not all, as some are hedge mages, but some are also part of the Circle.

[Daerog]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well about the Tevinter Imperium there is the story about the Magisters often mutated beyond recognition of kith and kind. Which seems to hint heavily at the fact that many of the Magisters of old Tevinter was in fact abominations.

Really? Where does it say this? Off to the wikia!

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well about the Tevinter Imperium there is the story about the Magisters often mutated beyond recognition of kith and kind. Which seems to hint heavily at the fact that many of the Magisters of old Tevinter was in fact abominations.

Well, that was said to be caused by lyrium exposure, which I actually buy.

[tool_bot]

Reaverwind wrote...

No. All the situation at the Circle did was prove how royally mages can fubar situations.

Ha!

Of course the Templars get a free pass for failing in every single one of their charges.

[tool_bot]

Sir JK wrote...
Using the collective or the Dalish as examples to functioning non-templar controlled magic communities is problematic... since you have no idea why that is.

Not really. The whole point is that templars aren't needed which all those cases more or less 'prove'

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lyrium hasn't mutated the Dwarfs beyond the fact they are "little people" and are still recognizable, also this has happened over several centuries not just a mage's lifetime. Templars take Lyrium their entire lives without any mutation. Direct contact with raw Lyrium is deadly to a mage not mutating. I don't buy it was Lyrium exposure, but we will probably never know.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium hasn't mutated the Dwarfs beyond the fact they are "little people" and are still recognizable, also this has happened over several centuries not just a mage's lifetime. Templars take Lyrium their entire lives without any mutation. Direct contact with raw Lyrium is deadly to a mage not mutating. I don't buy it was Lyrium exposure, but we will probably never know.

You sorta answered your own question. Mages feel the affects of lyruim differently then the other races especially the dwarves who don't feel it at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
Using the collective or the Dalish as examples to functioning non-templar controlled magic communities is problematic... since you have no idea why that is.

Not really. The whole point is that templars aren't needed which all those cases more or less 'prove'

Again for the hundredth time: No one is arguing that Templars specifically are neccesary. We are arguing though that control is neccesary. We don't know how any of the Dalish, the Disciples, Arlathan or any other non-chantry mages supervise themselves, or if there even is any. THat's why they are poor examples to use.

[EmperorSahlertz]

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium hasn't mutated the Dwarfs beyond the fact they are "little people" and are still recognizable, also this has happened over several centuries not just a mage's lifetime. Templars take Lyrium their entire lives without any mutation. Direct contact with raw Lyrium is deadly to a mage not mutating. I don't buy it was Lyrium exposure, but we will probably never know.

You sorta answered your own question. Mages feel the affects of lyruim differently then the other races especially the dwarves who don't feel it at all.

Dwarves feel it too. If they get it in their eyes or blood they go loco. Mages die.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
Using the collective or the Dalish as examples to functioning non-templar controlled magic communities is problematic... since you have no idea why that is.

Not really. The whole point is that templars aren't needed which all those cases more or less 'prove'

Again for the hundredth time: No one is arguing that Templars specifically are neccesary. We are arguing though that control is neccesary.

Which I've said I'm against when?

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium hasn't mutated the Dwarfs beyond the fact they are "little people" and are still recognizable, also this has happened over several centuries not just a mage's lifetime. Templars take Lyrium their entire lives without any mutation. Direct contact with raw Lyrium is deadly to a mage not mutating. I don't buy it was Lyrium exposure, but we will probably never know.

You sorta answered your own question. Mages feel the affects of lyruim differently then the other races especially the dwarves who don't feel it at all.

Dwarves feel it too. If they get it in their eyes or blood they go loco. Mages die.

I've always considered that something akin to poisoning whereas mages have some ridiculous allergic reaction.

EDIT: Didn't explain that very well and was just about to launch into a long totally pointless rant trying to mix my small knowledge of science with my knowledge of DA before realizing non of that applies. So yeah, ignore this.

Modifié par tool_bot, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium hasn't mutated the Dwarfs beyond the fact they are "little people" and are still recognizable, also this has happened over several centuries not just a mage's lifetime. Templars take Lyrium their entire lives without any mutation. Direct contact with raw Lyrium is deadly to a mage not mutating. I don't buy it was Lyrium exposure, but we will probably never know.

The amounts of lyrium used could differ. And think about the Harrowing, that was refined Lyrium , using that every day for a couple of years could have a different result. The trade was probably substantially larger during those days too, since there was a whole dwarven empire to mine the stuff, with only spiders and deepstalkers to worry about.

The dosage used for templars is unknown, we can take small doses of radiation without it having any certain effect.

And dwarves have a natural resistance to it's effects, and usually don't use it for anything else than making lights and enchanting.

[lobi]

dont forget the Rivan mages who wise women become abominations on poipose kinda like flemith or wynne

[Herr Uhl]

lobi wrote...

dont forget the Rivan mages who wise women become abominations on poipose kinda like flemith or wynne

They communicate with spirits, there is nothing about them becoming abominations. That it would be required in some kind of way seems reasonable, but there has been little to suggest that you couldn't do it without becoming an abomination.

[tool_bot]

lobi wrote...

dont forget the Rivan mages who wise women become abominations on poipose kinda like flemith or wynne

Totally forgot about those. (That's one of Genitivi's entries isn't it?I really love that guy. Brings back the few good memories of my days as a Catholic.)

I don't believe it was ever specified what kind of abominations they become. Or if they even become proper abominations. It might be a situation like Wynne where it's a 'benevolent spirit' or something like Justice or any spriti meant to embody something the tribe values.

[tool_bot]

Herr Uhl wrote...

lobi wrote...

dont forget the Rivan mages who wise women become abominations on poipose kinda like flemith or wynne

They communicate with spirits, there is nothing about them becoming abominations. That it would be required in some kind of way seems reasonable, but there has been little to suggest that you couldn't do it without becoming an abomination.

Actually the entry specifically states they allow themselves to become possessed.

[Herr Uhl]

Well, Wynne could be different in the sense that she is being kept alive by the spirit, thus meaning that she is an abomination. Talking to spirits doesn't make an abomination, strictly speaking. You did it all the time in the fade.

[lobi]

I always thought wynne accidentaly Rivain, I am preety sure the let themselves become possessed which seems a one way street once again wynne stuck with the spirit and 'Justice' from awakening just that justice was in empty body, he didnt know how to get out of it once he found himself there, (he like lyrium lots).

[Sir JK]

tool_bot wrote...

Not really. The whole point is that templars aren't needed which all those cases more or less 'prove'

But you don't know why. If the Dalish kill all their mages beyond the keeper and the first then no, they don't need any. The cult of Andraste might actually go through cycles of training mages and on rare occassions one of them falls and they violently have to put it down, it cannot be confirmed or denied. Also, remember that the Tevinter templars are not lyrium enhanced (but still templars).

If you're arguing that the Templars specifically aren't technically needed, then yes. You're completely correct. But that does not mean the alternatives are better for the mages, mind. I for one think the qunari way sounds a lot worse, but it is an alternative yes.