1503 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

I would fight them.



Unless of course by fighting them I only succeeded in replacing them with someone worse. That's the only way I would ever even consider helping the Chantry or their passive-aggressive "Maker".

[Kerethos]

I enjoy playing a mage and thus naturally I find myself siding and identifying with them. I'm even an active user of Blood Magic. That said, I do not believe those worshiping the Maker to be evil – but I do perceive them as a threat to all of Thedas, just like the Qunari or the demons. But I’ll start with the mages and Templars, as they seem to be at the heart of the discussion.

There needs to be changes, mages should be afforded more freedoms and better treatment, as oppression breeds resentment, which could spark another incident such as the one seen at the Ferelden Circle of Magi.

But one cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that mages are dangerous, both to them selves and others. Thus the Templars are the best line of defence - for things will go wrong, regardless of ones best intentions. And I am all for the Circle, as mages should be given guidance by those that understands them. They need to be taught how to safely wield their powers and defend them selves against demons, but that is not equivalent of locking them in a gilded cage for the duration of their lives. I believe the mages are capable of policing them selves, but they also need to be able to call on the Templars, for aid against abominations or power crazy blood mages, should the need arise. Thus I believe the Templars perform a necessary function, albeit be it a grim one.

As for the Chantry in general, one must remember that it is largely a part of politics – and it is not just religion. While I do not agree with the Chantry, I do not hate those that turn to it for answers about life’s mysteries. Unfortunately the Chantry teaches things that will inevitably lead to violence, on all that do not embrace their teachings. Thus they will, in fact; they must, convert the Dwarves, the Elves and the Qunari, or destroy them whilst trying. The Chant must be spread to all four corners of the world – and with it comes oppression and death. Any religion that promotes war and conquest of non-believers is a religion that I cannot support, and I would consider it to be, in fact, evil.

The big but for DA2 is, how ever, that that the Qunari have, in all likelihood, come to spread the Qun. And based on what I know of how they treat their mages:

• Cut out their tongues so a corrupted mage can’t corrupt anyone else.
  
• Keep them in cages and on leashes, so they can always control them.

I’d side with the Chantry against the Qunari in a heartbeat, and then proceed to shooting lighting at fools. And I can't say that Sten's stories about Qunari society have much appeal for non-mages either. Thus the Chantry would be the lesser evil of the two, at least in my mind.

Modifié par Kerethos_, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[Iokastos]

thegreateski wrote...

I would fight them.

Unless of course by fighting them I only succeeded in replacing them with someone worse. That's the only way I would ever even consider helping the Chantry or their passive-aggressive "Maker".

this

[nightcobra]

i'd rather change their system from within, being a nice guy and a master puppeteer at the same time

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Fight them, but only to eventually reform them and not to destroy them. Based on the who Andraste myth being right who knows how wrong they really are?

[CarlSpackler]

Reformation. *Looks for mallet and Chantry door to post thesis.*

[errant_knight]

Slidell505 wrote...

Fight. The chantery is the DA equivalent of the Catholic church. If I could just go in and cut out the corrupted bull**** I'd do that instead.

Lay off bashing real religions, please. We all have different beliefs, and you know what they say about religion and politics.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They contained them for the moment. We don't know what would have happend if the Warden had not showed up to solve the situation. I still don't see why the mages need templars to guard them, when the mages could do it themselves. But it doesn't even matter since whether they failed or not, their actions are morally questionable. And you can't have someone morally questionable playing god.

Because you want to entrust a sentiant tank that can turn into a uncontrolable nuke to police over another sentient tank that can turn into a nuke?

Would oyu allow people to own and drive fully armed tanks around the town? Would you ever feel safe? How about if those tanks were powered by nuclear reactors? You'd be runnignaround, demanding protection and their removal from the street long before the first town turned into a crater.

The people in Thedas are reacting sensibly and naturally to the mage issue.

Well no. But I see a difference in not allowing people to drive tanks and imprisoning someone for lifetime just because of what he is. Also I am not against control over mages. I just think the mages can do it themselves, they need no dimwit near crazy sword swingers with an inbred dislike for magic to guard them. The problem I have with the Chantry is not that they try to establish order, my problem is the way they do it.

[Virginian]

The Chantry no matter what good it does is now, always has been, and always will be an evil organization. They use belief as a weapon. They are no better than any dictator.

Down with all organized religion.

[Akka le Vil]

I suppose that it's the typical "rebellion against authority" and irritation against preachiness that make all the "let's burn the Chantry !" railing.

What seems to completely pass under the radar of teenage rebels is that it's actually much less black and white, and a truly well thought-out situation that Bioware created.



Chantry is realistically described as a religion that has a preachy and oppressive side, but ALSO has a generous and humanitarian side. Which makes it NOT a no-brainer when it comes to "do you fight it or help it ?".

It's shallow and simplistic to describe it as tyrannizing the mages. It HELPS the mage not to be burnt by mobs just as much as it confines them in towers - where they can at least find a sense of belonging and security. It PROTECTS the non-mage from all the "little peripherical problems" that are caused by uncontrolled magic - it's all nice and fine to shrug the collateral damages while crying "freedom", up to the point you remember that these collateral damages have just as much a right to live than the mages, and one single abomination kills much more than one single person.



The Chantry is actually using a lot of efforts to control mages rather than kill them, and in this case it seems that it's actually fairly generous.



The points that would make me fight it are more about the religious intolerance (which is fairly low compared to real-life medieval setting, I offended people when I said that I didn't believe in the Maker, but they didn't try to kill or denounce me, which seems to imply that it's not actually a crime) and particularly the subjugation of Elves. But that seems to me to represent rather a non-wide-eyed-idealistic world, than an "evil oppressive religion".

[ErichHartmann]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Fight. The Chantry is the DA equivalent of the Catholic church. If I could just go in and cut out the corrupted bull**** I'd do that instead.

Lay off bashing real religions, please. We all have different beliefs, and you know what they say about religion and politics.

Please stop making things up. He's not bashing real religions. He just said that the Chantry is the equivalent of the Catholic church.

These analogies are completely unnecessary.  It's not rocket science to keep viewpoints within the world of DA.         

[errant_knight]

ErichHartmann wrote...

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Fight. The Chantry is the DA equivalent of the Catholic church. If I could just go in and cut out the corrupted bull**** I'd do that instead.

Lay off bashing real religions, please. We all have different beliefs, and you know what they say about religion and politics.

Please stop making things up. He's not bashing real religions. He just said that the Chantry is the equivalent of the Catholic church.

These analogies are completely unnecessary.  It's not rocket science to keep viewpoints within the world of DA.         

I'm not making things up. The structure of his statement leads it to be read 'fight because it's the equivalent of the Catholic church.' He then ties corruption to it. And as ErichHartmann says, such arguments are completely unnecessary.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:09 .

[errant_knight]

Well, leave them out anyway. People feel strongly about their religions, and we don't need to go poking them with a stick.

[Face of Evil]

The Chantry has its darker side, but ultimately it is a force of good within Ferelden. Belief in the Maker gives people hope and the Chantry provides charities that help the poor. While I may sympathize with the plight of mages, they do pose an incredible threat; even a mage who does not use his powers for destruction can be made into abominations.



Put me down on the "support" side.

[KJandrew]

Fight them mainly because of that one chanter at Ostagar and the way she abused my Dwarf just because i didn't believe in the maker

[Mister Mida]

If they force my hand I'll kill them in a heartbeat.

[Face of Evil]

My favourite character is a City Elf and even I recognize that the elves of the Dales had a hand in their downfall by refusing to help the humans against the Blight and then attacking a human village.



Do the elves deserve to be treated as they are today, as second-class citizens? No. But we can't make the same mistakes as we did in the past. Railing against the Chantry will not improve things for the elves.



The greater sin in my mind was the conquering of Arlathan by the Tevinter Imperium. Blood magic is a far greater evil than anything perpetrated by the Chantry, which is completely right to persecute maleficarum.

[ImoenBaby]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I suppose that it's the typical "rebellion against authority" and irritation against preachiness that make all the "let's burn the Chantry !" railing.
What seems to completely pass under the radar of teenage rebels is that it's actually much less black and white, and a truly well thought-out situation that Bioware created.

Chantry is realistically described as a religion that has a preachy and oppressive side, but ALSO has a generous and humanitarian side. Which makes it NOT a no-brainer when it comes to "do you fight it or help it ?".
It's shallow and simplistic to describe it as tyrannizing the mages. It HELPS the mage not to be burnt by mobs just as much as it confines them in towers - where they can at least find a sense of belonging and security. It PROTECTS the non-mage from all the "little peripherical problems" that are caused by uncontrolled magic - it's all nice and fine to shrug the collateral damages while crying "freedom", up to the point you remember that these collateral damages have just as much a right to live than the mages, and one single abomination kills much more than one single person.

The Chantry is actually using a lot of efforts to control mages rather than kill them, and in this case it seems that it's actually fairly generous.

The points that would make me fight it are more about the religious intolerance (which is fairly low compared to real-life medieval setting, I offended people when I said that I didn't believe in the Maker, but they didn't try to kill or denounce me, which seems to imply that it's not actually a crime) and particularly the subjugation of Elves. But that seems to me to represent rather a non-wide-eyed-idealistic world, than an "evil oppressive religion".

That was unintentionally ironic.

You know, when you used your dismissive "teenage rebels" remark, you derailed your entire argument: there was an actual "teenage rebel" who was run through by the Templars in DA:O. You know, Wynne's student.

He fled because he was suddenly alienated from home life, and had trouble coping. Not because he was a blood mage, or an abomination, or because, hey - if the Templars decide you're a threat, you're dead.  

He was hunted by a gang from the armed wing of the Chantry, and run through with a sword...because he was a frightened elf child in a world controlled by strange humans.

No, it's definitely not shallow and simplistic to describe the Chantry as a tyranny.  It is a factual description of reality under Chantry rule, at least for those who - gasp! the immaturity! - want freedom to live free of persecution. It's by no means the Chantry's only characteristic, but it is a defining one for apostates, and I bet anyone else who disagrees with the religious powers that be.

But yes. There are always those who will think it's generous to not kill mages, just blanket oppress them regardless of their individual motivations and histories. Oh, the princely generosity. Paragons of beneficience.

What's that you say? But mages are potentially dangerous? So are males. A disproportionately large group commits the most violent crime, and the most serious. They are potentially and factually responsible for most violent disruptions of civil order.  IN FACT, SO IS ANYONE, with enough numbers or power.  

And what's that? Mages are historically responsible for the Dark City? According to the Chantry, you mean?

Let's assume the Chantry's correct: how does it follow that all mages, everywhere, at all times, should always be oppressed/supervised/whatever you want to call it? Should all Germans be on a leash after WW2? Oh, wait, they can't be dominated by demons. I forgot that part. They can only be swayed by a charismatic leader and their own prejudices.They can only command an arsenal of world-destroying weaponry. 

[Loc'n'lol]

ImoenBaby wrote...

So are males.

Ok, this is the part where you get out. Now.

[ImoenBaby]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

ImoenBaby wrote...

So are males.

Ok, this is the part where you get out. Now.

Not if you read the post, Loc_N_lol. Maybe I didn't make this clear? It would be ridiculous to blanket oppress all males.

If that's what you're referring to, of course.