21 réponses à ce sujet

[lummoxybez]

Howdy,

I recenly played through all of BG1, TotSC (EasyTutu) and the first few chapters of BG2 with an Inquisitor, and started to get bored with it all. I think it is because my tactics were all the same. Buffed-up Inquisitor runs in to the attack with 2-handed sword whilst the rest of the party fire missiles or cast spells. HACK, CHOP, BURN, SCREAM - enemy is defeated.

Now I feel that I want it to be a little more challenging than that, so I decided to start all over again in BG1 with a different character. I also thought that I'd do the entire series with just 4 characters total, which would increase the difficulty whilst also reducing the amount of annoying  wandering the NPCs do. (With 6 party members it can take an age to walk around obstacles sometimes.)

As I wanted to keep Jaheira and Imoen in the party for canonical reasons (don't care about that simpleton Minsc), I thought I'd need someone who can fight with maybe some magic for the sake of interest. Therefore I decided to go for a cleric, even though Jaheira is perfectly capable of providing all the healing we will need.
Because I wanted to dual-wield the Flail of Ages and a cool mace, I decide to have a few levels of fighter to get those proficieny points built up. Now I have a Human Fighter(3)/Cleric(4) who is pretty good and has awesome stats (total of 97 rolled), but I can't help but think that I should've made different choices as now it feels like he is almost exactly the same as my Inquisitor.

Right now I'm feeling good about this new character, but I don't want to complete BG1 and then start to feel despondent about my character because I made the wrong choices. Do any of you have any advice as to what character would ideally complement the following party criteria :

PC
Jaheira
Imoen/Nalia (until Imoen comes back)
A. N. Other NPC? (advice here would be appreciated)

I'm looking for a class that it interesting to play, so hack 'n slay types aren't really going to float my boat. However, I don't want them to be complete duffers at combat, hence my idea to spend a few levels as a fighter first (if that makes any sense.)

Thanks in advance.

[Flamedance]

Mages are interesting to play. They're rather weak at the start of the game, though. Focus on disabling spells and protection spells for the first half of the game. You don't get a good damage dealing spell till lvl 5. Meaning spells like sleep, blindness and web will be your best friends. You'll need a tank too. Kagain is probably the best tank (dwarven saving throws and high constitution), but he's evil which complicates things.

If you're using Tutu or BGT you might want to try your hand at a sorceror. Be careful with the spell picks since you're stuck with your initial spell picks for the entire game.

The main problem with this setup is you won't be dealing a lot of damage. Sorcerors deal more damage than any other class, but that's not till pretty late in the game.Of course, things will be slightly better if you start a SoA game with this party, in which case you could replace Kagain with Minsc. Boot Minsc and replace him with Korgan once you leave Irenicus' dungeon.

There are other options too, like recruiting Kivan for the Baldurs Gate1 part of the series.

If you feel the game is too easy, use a tactical mod to make the game more challenging. By far the best tactical mod is SCS (available at Gibberlings 3).

[lummoxybez]

Thanks Flamedance.

However, my dilema is more a question of how to avoid despondence whilst still playing a balanced team. I want to avoid playing a tank as my main as this gets boring very quickly.

I may try your advice of playing a mage or sorcerer though. Am I correct in thinking that the AD&D rules have sorcerers utilise INT as a main stat rather than CHA?



(I have to add that as I dislike the fact that magic-users can only use the gay weapons like slings and darts, I will put him through 3 levels or more of fighter first - longbows rock!)

[Flamedance]

Sorcerors can't dualclass (or be dualclassed to). On character creation, the game will tell you charisma and intelligence are the primary statistics for sorcerors, but that's not true. Bioware never implemented that. A sorceror with 3 intelligence is perfectly viable. The only problem is, he/she can't use scrolls (scrolls require 9 intelligence to use). Personally, i always give my sorcerors decent intelligence, but that's mainly for rp reasons. I haven't played vanilla BG in a long time, but iirc some wands require 13 intelligence to use.
Same with charisma. Unlike in 3e D&D (and Neverwinter Nights), high charisma doesn't make it harder to save against your spells. Most veterans use charisma as a dump stat, since it's pretty much useless except for shopping. But you get a ring that sets your charisma to 18 right off the bat in SoA. Or you can just let a high charisma character like Keldorn or Ajantis do the shopping.
Probably the most important stat for sorcerors is wisdom. One of the best spells in the game is the Wish spell (lvl9). When casting Wish, the game will do a Wisdom check. To get the best result, you need wisdom 18. However, if you play through the entire series with the same character, you don't need more than 14 wisdom to start out with. There are 3 tomes of wisdom in Baldurs Gate 1 and another chance to raise your Wisdom by 1 by using the Machine of Lum the Mad in Baldurs gate 2. Wisdom higher than 18 is pointless for sorcerors.
If you start out in Candlekeep and are planning to import your character in SoA later, roll an elf sorceror (the dex bonus is nice and the con penalty doesn't hurt you) use a stat distribution like this: St 12, dex 19, con 16, int 14, wis 14, cha 14. That's a total of 89 stat points, which isn't too hard to roll. Use all the tomes of wisdom and the Machine of lum the Mad to get your wisdom to 18. Or use cha as a dump stat and set wisdom to 18. Personally, i like a balanced character, but that's mainly for rp-reasons.
Another option is playing a Wild Mage. Imo the most exhilirating class to play. Just make sure you save a lot:p.

Fighters dualclassed to mages are very, very powerful, especially if you use a fighter kit like the kensai or the berserker. I think the berserker is far superior to the kensai, but quite a few regulars on this forum will disagree with me:P You can dualclass whenever you want, but fighters are commonly dualclassed at either lvl 9 or levl 13. If you just want to give them some extra proficiencies/hitpoints, you can dual them at lvl 3 or whatever suits your purpose best.

Modifié par Flamedance, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:52 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Dualclasssing at low levels is a good choice only if you don't plan on importing the character to BG2. Anomen is dualclassed at level 7, and look what he misses out on.

The kensai dualclass (if you really want to make one) should be dualclassed as late as possible, at low level the bonuses just don't make up for the loss.

[jaxsbudgie]

Whenever I play a FighterdDualed to Mage in BG1 I normally dual early on, only when I've dumped all my points into something like crossbow, plus the extra hitpoitns help.

In terms of something different, Bard of Thief are fun. I like playing the Skald, and there are plently of other Bard kits from the mod Song & Silence which adds Thief kits too.
Fighter/Thief is my favourite class, which requires different tactics to simply charging in and hacking. Fighter/Thieves are best for their stab and fade tactics, hide in shadows, backstab, run away and hide or drink a potion then stab again, never gets old, especially when your crit gib someone into chunks.
Bards are interesting, with certain mods they suddenly become enjoyabe to play (for me at least). Rogue Rebalancing changes the way Bards work and adjusts their kits and spell progression (they now progress upto level 8! yesss).
Or Cleric/Mage and Ranger/Cleric, both are spellcasting hoarders, really fun to play. My preference is probably the Cleric/Mage because I usually play evil characters. But being able to put Cleric spells into contingencies is always fun. The robe of Vecna is made for Cleric/Mage's simply because Cleric spells take ages to cast. 

[Flamedance]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Dualclasssing at low levels is a good choice only if you don't plan on importing the character to BG2. Anomen is dualclassed at level 7, and look what he misses out on.
The kensai dualclass (if you really want to make one) should be dualclassed as late as possible, at low level the bonuses just don't make up for the loss.

Dualclassing at low lvl is ok if you just want some extra hitpoints/proficiencies. That way you get a tougher mage for a relatively low xp-cost. Agreed on the kensai, though. Dualing a Kensai at low level is pointless. But imo berserkers are much better dualclassing material anyway. Plus i  don't recommend playing a kensai in BG1, unless you really love reloading.

[lummoxybez]

I think I might start again and go for a human Fighter/Mage. I'll dual at level 3 so I can get my longbow skill up to 5 points. The main reason for me to dual is so I can use some of the fighter weapons rather than being stuck with the crappy sling or darts (they just feel wrong rather than having poor stats.)



I guess I'll struggle to roll a character with a total of 97 stat points though...

[jaxsbudgie]

lummoxybez wrote...

I think I might start again and go for a human Fighter/Mage. I'll dual at level 3 so I can get my longbow skill up to 5 points. The main reason for me to dual is so I can use some of the fighter weapons rather than being stuck with the crappy sling or darts (they just feel wrong rather than having poor stats.)

I guess I'll struggle to roll a character with a total of 97 stat points though...

Go with shortbow or crossbow, both are better than longbow in the long run (no pun intended).
Plus you won't need a ridiculous strength score to wield a composite longbow.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Don't go for bows at all. Slings do vastly more damage. And if you wait until level 7 (or better level 13) you'll have good APR as well.

Of course, this is assuming you want to actually use this weapon. A mage has other options. (MMM for instance)

[Chebby]

I remember reading that throwing axes were very nice things to have with ranged. If you're dualling, it's certainly worth considering but it'd require both high strength AND dexterity. However, I haven't really used them. If they're not too good, someone clarify this before he wastes his blips!

[Shadow_Leech07]

Chebby wrote...

I remember reading that throwing axes were very nice things to have with ranged. If you're dualling, it's certainly worth considering but it'd require both high strength AND dexterity. However, I haven't really used them. If they're not too good, someone clarify this before he wastes his blips!

Axes in general are good to have. There is one good throwing axe you get in Throne of Bhaal. I don't recall dexterity helping with axes.

As an aside: Bows are good because you get to use arrows of dispelling, and because of speed factor and APR. One bow allows you to get improved haste. Later on you're probably just using them for AoD because not everyone can use staff of magi or the paladin swords.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[wise grimwald]

In ToSC there is an axe that returns to the hand. Very useful as it saved carrying around so much weight. Can be got earlier in Dark Horizons though not cheap! In Drizzt Saga, a VG returning throwing axe at the start. Dark Horizons is in general good for weapons that are in short supply in ToSC. However they do not come cheap! Rightly IMO.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The disadvantage of throwing axes is their range. They require you to stay closer to the target than other weapons.

[ncknck]

Flamedance wrote...

Sorcerors can't dualclass (or be dualclassed to). On character creation, the game will tell you charisma and intelligence are the primary statistics for sorcerors, but that's not true. Bioware never implemented that. A sorceror with 3 intelligence is perfectly viable. The only problem is, he/she can't use scrolls (scrolls require 9 intelligence to use). Personally, i always give my sorcerors decent intelligence, but that's mainly for rp reasons. I haven't played vanilla BG in a long time, but iirc some wands require 13 intelligence to use.
Same with charisma. Unlike in 3e D&D (and Neverwinter Nights), high charisma doesn't make it harder to save against your spells. Most veterans use charisma as a dump stat, since it's pretty much useless except for shopping. But you get a ring that sets your charisma to 18 right off the bat in SoA. Or you can just let a high charisma character like Keldorn or Ajantis do the shopping.
Probably the most important stat for sorcerors is wisdom. One of the best spells in the game is the Wish spell (lvl9). When casting Wish, the game will do a Wisdom check. To get the best result, you need wisdom 18. However, if you play through the entire series with the same character, you don't need more than 14 wisdom to start out with. There are 3 tomes of wisdom in Baldurs Gate 1 and another chance to raise your Wisdom by 1 by using the Machine of Lum the Mad in Baldurs gate 2. Wisdom higher than 18 is pointless for sorcerors.

Eww. Dropping INT below 9 is bad. INT is the second most important stat to a sorc(after con). Missing on some quests is meh. But inability to cast from scrolls and use wands is a pretty severe penalty, once you get to the clone spells. Cast Wish from a cloned scroll and dont waste a precious lvl9 slot on a noncombat spell. Drink a cloned Potion of Wisdom and the sorc doesnt need a high wis either. Dumping CHA is not exactly great too. While it is possible to get it to 18 with a ring, what you want is actually CHA 24 to get the best possible discount. (base CHA18+friends fits). And of course that ringslot could be used for something actually useful, like a ring granting more spellslots. 

Modifié par ncknck, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Flamedance]

Well, the argument is a bit moot, since you can't actually set a sorceror's intelligence lower than 9 on character creation. And, like i said myself, it's better to keep intelligence at a decent lvl to be able to use scrolls and wands. Is it necessary? No. It's just convenient. I never use intelligence as a dump stat for sorcerors, but i once did for a barbarian. There are hardly any intelligence checks in Baldurs Gate for the purpose of quests. I got the exact same quests for my barbarian as i got for my 18 intelligence mage. The only slight issue i recall, was the Priest of Helm being rather suspicious when he gave me the Unseeing Eye quest. But that was probably due to my low charisma (which was 3). In the end, he did give me the quest after a lot of complaining.



Actually, decent intelligence is probably more important for melee types than for sorcerors, due to them having to go toe to toe with Mindflayers. My barb died a few times because they only had to hit him once to kill him off:P For the rare cases where there are actually checks, you can almost always use a high intelligence character like Imoen or Edwin.



High intelligence is very important for the purpose of quests in Planescape: Torment, but nearly meaningless in Baldurs Gate. I do think there are a couple of wisdom (and maybe intelligence)checks for the purpose of dialogue ( the Beholder in the Sahuagin city comes to mind) but you can simply send in Aerie to deal with that.

As for the use of cloned scrolls, no thanks. As for 18 wisdom, that too is just convenient. You can use potions to raise Wisdom to 18 when you need it. I'm just lazy and i can't be arsed to look for potions in my potionbag:P





I don't exactly see the problem with the ring slot. Just equip the ring before shopping/dialogue and unequip it when you're done.. It's not as if money is in short supply in SoA either. As in almost every rpg (except for mmo's), i usually end up with a lot of gold. Currently my 12 charisma geomantic sorceror has 140000 gold and absolutely nothing to spend it on. Though i have to admit that's in a BWP Tactics install with lots of nasty enemies who drop expensive loot.



A sorceror with the stats i gave earlier is a nice compromise between efficiency and rp, imo.

[ncknck]

Removing items with extra spellslots removes those spells from memory too. Btw if it isnt possible to start with int 3 on a sorc, why bring it as an argument.



If not relying on exploits, in vanilla SoA with just gamefixes (fixpack etc) and a 6ppl party money is in dire need. Def not enough to buy all the high level spells legitimately. Especially if multiple mages present. Mb in ToB&WK later, dunno i always sent a rogue after them early on. How id stat a sorc? Con 16 and the rest doesnt really matter tbh.. Which ever is more convenient, to me it is def more convenient to have cha 18 and drink a wis potion. I shop more than casting wish.

[Flamedance]

You've obviously never played a BWP-game:P. Trust me, you'll have more money than you'll ever need. It's been a loong time since i last played vanilla, but i never had monetary issues there either. In fact, i've never played an rpg in which money was an issue. Except for World of Warcraft in the early days, but even there money is now easy to get.

Not exactly sure what your point is with the spellslots, tbh. Anyway, who cares, really. In vanilla an experienced player can get away with nearly everything.

[jaxsbudgie]

Speaking of gold in Baldur's Gate, anyone tried the mod Aurora's Shoes? It cripples you in terms of money found and money you get for selling magical items. The most amount I ever had was around 40000 and that was after the Underdark.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Money really shouldn't be all that much of an issue in BG2. I know a number of mods that try to change that (raising the price for chapter 3 or reducing monetary rewards), and that should tell you something, though of course you're not required to believe it (just as the mods to increase the difficulty aren't proof that BG2 is too easy).

[ncknck]

Flamedance wrote...

You've obviously never played a BWP-game:P. Trust me, you'll have more money than you'll ever need. It's been a loong time since i last played vanilla, but i never had monetary issues there either. In fact, i've never played an rpg in which money was an issue. Except for World of Warcraft in the early days, but even there money is now easy to get.
Not exactly sure what your point is with the spellslots, tbh. Anyway, who cares, really. In vanilla an experienced player can get away with nearly everything.

Im talking about vanilla fixpacked game obviously. No doubt item etc mods remove any problems with moneys. Just to give you an idea one high level spell costs around 5-6k gold. (check copper coronet) Multiply it by 15 spells for each mage, say Imoen and Jan, 6*15*2=180000++ gold just for spells in chapter 2. Obviosuly not a problem for a solo sorc, so it quite differs from game to game. (imagine 3 mages)

Removing the ring even for a second permanently removes the bonuses it grants until rerest. The bonus spell will not come back on reequip. Check it out. So its not a good idea swapping items.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck It's true that unequipping the Ring of Wizardry makes you lose those spells until rest (which doesn't cost all that much by the way) - but. In your example, with 2 NPC mages, there should be plenty ring slots free, because there are only 2 Rings of Wizardry and 1 Ring of Acuity.