There's a lot of talk on how to improve ME's roleplaying aspect for the third instalment (inventory, more dialogue, talent trees etc.), but I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion focused on ways to make it a better shooter.
Obviously, ME2 is light-years ahead of ME1 in this respect, judging from all the requests for Pinnacle Station 2.0 to run through with the shiny new combat system. I agree, and am one of those voices, but I think ME2 has a further way to go for even more complex and satisfying gunplay.
So, for the shooter fans - what innovations have you seen in other shooter games that could improve the complexity of Mass Effect combat?
I have a small list that I will post below; feel free to add to it.
Ways to improve the shooter aspect of ME
Débuté par
PsyrenY
, sept. 13 2010 01:52
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#2
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 01:53
FuturePasTimeCE
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FPS aiming mode, then back to 3rd person?
#3
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 01:58
xlI ReFLeX lIx
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FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
FPS aiming mode, then back to 3rd person?
Switching while aiming would be annoying.. although, I wouldn't mind being able to switch from 1st person to 3rd person like Fallout.
#4
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:01
upsettingshorts
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Flashbangs by default. To balance this, give a limited number. Similar to the way Mass Effect 1 had grenades, but without the annoying sticky-manual detonation dealio.
#5
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:05
PsyrenY
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-Enemy Skills: This is number one with blazing neon letters. Right now, all an enemy "vanguard" does is wear a barrier and throw Warps. Vasir from Lair was actually the first true Vanguard we've ever fought, and I'd like to see more along those lines. We don't need mooks that fight exactly like she does, but an occasional (telegraphed) biotic charge to get into Shepard's face would be very cool.
With small exceptions like Harbinger, most of the enemies fall into this trap; They don't do much besides shoot and take cover and thus aren't challenging, they are merely chaff to grind through on the way to real fights. The engineers mix things up nicely with combat drones and incinerate; I'd like to see class matter more on the enemy side of the field, like it did with Sergeant Sterling in ME1.
-Blind-fire: This one's from Gears and fits cover-based TPS like a glove. At the expense of being able to aim accurately, you can poke your SMG/shotgun/etc. out of hiding, and spray some rounds in Harbinger's general direction, laying down suppressive fire while minimizing the risk to your health/shields.
-Mobile cover: Army of Two had car doors and Gears had plantable shields. I'm not sure what would work best for ME (any ideas?) but this could be very useful tactically. This helps the immersion too - a lot of people complained that the emergence of chest-high walls telegraphed which areas in the game would become combat areas even with no enemies around, e.g. the derelict collector ship and the first part of Purgatory. Instead, you can have a sequence with no cover at all - a wide open area like the Presidium or the Illium Stock Exchange become a combat zone, and Shep needing to bring his own cover to make it through, or have a squadmate carry it for him.
With small exceptions like Harbinger, most of the enemies fall into this trap; They don't do much besides shoot and take cover and thus aren't challenging, they are merely chaff to grind through on the way to real fights. The engineers mix things up nicely with combat drones and incinerate; I'd like to see class matter more on the enemy side of the field, like it did with Sergeant Sterling in ME1.
-Blind-fire: This one's from Gears and fits cover-based TPS like a glove. At the expense of being able to aim accurately, you can poke your SMG/shotgun/etc. out of hiding, and spray some rounds in Harbinger's general direction, laying down suppressive fire while minimizing the risk to your health/shields.
-Mobile cover: Army of Two had car doors and Gears had plantable shields. I'm not sure what would work best for ME (any ideas?) but this could be very useful tactically. This helps the immersion too - a lot of people complained that the emergence of chest-high walls telegraphed which areas in the game would become combat areas even with no enemies around, e.g. the derelict collector ship and the first part of Purgatory. Instead, you can have a sequence with no cover at all - a wide open area like the Presidium or the Illium Stock Exchange become a combat zone, and Shep needing to bring his own cover to make it through, or have a squadmate carry it for him.
Modifié par Optimystic_X, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:05 .
#6
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:08
PsyrenY
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FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
FPS aiming mode, then back to 3rd person?
I personally think 3rd-person works so well in ME because part of the fun of an RPG is being able to see the character you have designed so carefully (both appearance, and gear.) Also, Bioware has already put in a lot of time making Shepard's combat animations fluid (compare his to say, the Morrowind or Oblivion protagonist in 3rd-person mode.) and I think they would want the players to see the fruits of that labor.
Upsettingshorts wrote...
Flashbangs by default. To balance this, give a limited number. Similar to the way Mass Effect 1 had grenades, but without the annoying sticky-manual detonation dealio.
I actually have a whole overhaul to the grenade system thought up; I'll post a high-level overview in a few.
#7
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:10
Rob Sabbaggio
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I thought the Mass Effect 2 combat was a little repetitive, if I am honest. While the mechanics were improved, you basically hit cover, fired, cover etc. Waves of enemies appear, you dispatch them. Rinse and repeat.
Personally, if I was doing ME3, I would try and increase the variety of combat situations, and also make it so there were alternative approaches (e.g. stealth, laying traps, negotiation) to achieving an objective. I was playing KOTOR the other day, and there is a great deal of variety, for example you can hack computers, turrets, lay mines etc. I'm not asking for Dues Ex style freedom, but a bit of variety would be nice.
For the combat itself, I think you can keep the mechanics/engine but inject some variety into the situations. For example, a bit more verticality would be nice e.g. fighting up a slope to an entrenched position, fighting from moving objects e.g. a battle on a train. There is real scope for some spectacle here.
Personally, if I was doing ME3, I would try and increase the variety of combat situations, and also make it so there were alternative approaches (e.g. stealth, laying traps, negotiation) to achieving an objective. I was playing KOTOR the other day, and there is a great deal of variety, for example you can hack computers, turrets, lay mines etc. I'm not asking for Dues Ex style freedom, but a bit of variety would be nice.
For the combat itself, I think you can keep the mechanics/engine but inject some variety into the situations. For example, a bit more verticality would be nice e.g. fighting up a slope to an entrenched position, fighting from moving objects e.g. a battle on a train. There is real scope for some spectacle here.
#8
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:19
PsyrenY
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Rob Sabbaggio wrote...
I thought the Mass Effect 2 combat was a little repetitive, if I am honest. While the mechanics were improved, you basically hit cover, fired, cover etc. Waves of enemies appear, you dispatch them. Rinse and repeat.
I agree, and that's actually why I made this thread. For instance, Gears combat is still fresh despite its age and has sold EXTREMELY well - therefore there are obvious returns on investment for Bioware to reap here.
Keep in mind that I am not saying that Bioware should pare down on story. I just think they already have compelling story/dialogue under control (thanks to their talented writing staff) and so should set their sights on making the combat just as appealing.
Rob Sabbaggio wrote...
For the combat itself, I think you can keep the mechanics/engine but inject some variety into the situations. For example, a bit more verticality would be nice e.g. fighting up a slope to an entrenched position, fighting from moving objects e.g. a battle on a train. There is real scope for some spectacle here.
I agree totally, or even holding a high-ground position against waves of enemies.
Fighting on a train though - there actually isn't a lot of movement in that scenario (or more accurately, everything else is already moving at the same speed you are) so I'm not sure how it would be different from a normal firefight except for the background whizzing by instead of being static.
#9
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:29
PsyrenY
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Grenades: There are a number of places we could look for inspiration, but I think the best system to borrow from is Borderlands. In that game, grenades have two attributes - behavior and element. Behavior includes mods like Bouncy, Sticky, Cluster and Rain; Element can be swapped to the ME elements, like Cryo, Incendiary, Disruptor and Flash.
Grenades will become a much more tactical consideration as a result. You can add much-needed variation to the combat classes and their play strategy - Soldiers, for instance, gain a way to flush enemies out of cover, and Vanguards gain a powerful weapon to lob towards enemies that can't be charged. An infiltrator can sneak up under cloak and stick a deadly trap onto an unsuspecting mercenary; and her cloak won't even break until it goes off, so she has time to quickly sneak back to cover (followed by popping up to snipe the weakened and disoriented survivors.)
Grenades will become a much more tactical consideration as a result. You can add much-needed variation to the combat classes and their play strategy - Soldiers, for instance, gain a way to flush enemies out of cover, and Vanguards gain a powerful weapon to lob towards enemies that can't be charged. An infiltrator can sneak up under cloak and stick a deadly trap onto an unsuspecting mercenary; and her cloak won't even break until it goes off, so she has time to quickly sneak back to cover (followed by popping up to snipe the weakened and disoriented survivors.)
#10
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:30
FuturePasTimeCE
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that's what i was sayingxlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...
FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
FPS aiming mode, then back to 3rd person?
Switching while aiming would be annoying.. although, I wouldn't mind being able to switch from 1st person to 3rd person like Fallout.
#11
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:32
FuturePasTimeCE
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yeah, alot of 3rd person motion animation... where as 1st person mode would be a waste of labor.Optimystic_X wrote...
FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
FPS aiming mode, then back to 3rd person?
I personally think 3rd-person works so well in ME because part of the fun of an RPG is being able to see the character you have designed so carefully (both appearance, and gear.) Also, Bioware has already put in a lot of time making Shepard's combat animations fluid (compare his to say, the Morrowind or Oblivion protagonist in 3rd-person mode.) and I think they would want the players to see the fruits of that labor.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Flashbangs by default. To balance this, give a limited number. Similar to the way Mass Effect 1 had grenades, but without the annoying sticky-manual detonation dealio.
I actually have a whole overhaul to the grenade system thought up; I'll post a high-level overview in a few.
#12
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:41
Chuvvy
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Rob Sabbaggio wrote...
I thought the Mass Effect 2 combat was a little repetitive, if I am honest. While the mechanics were improved, you basically hit cover, fired, cover etc. Waves of enemies appear, you dispatch them. Rinse and repeat.
Personally, if I was doing ME3, I would try and increase the variety of combat situations, and also make it so there were alternative approaches (e.g. stealth, laying traps, negotiation) to achieving an objective. I was playing KOTOR the other day, and there is a great deal of variety, for example you can hack computers, turrets, lay mines etc. I'm not asking for Dues Ex style freedom, but a bit of variety would be nice.
For the combat itself, I think you can keep the mechanics/engine but inject some variety into the situations. For example, a bit more verticality would be nice e.g. fighting up a slope to an entrenched position, fighting from moving objects e.g. a battle on a train. There is real scope for some spectacle here.
Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this.
#13
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:46
FuturePasTimeCE
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biotics aren't good enough, or class selections?Rob Sabbaggio wrote...
I thought the Mass Effect 2 combat was a little repetitive, if I am honest. While the mechanics were improved, you basically hit cover, fired, cover etc. Waves of enemies appear, you dispatch them. Rinse and repeat.
Personally, if I was doing ME3, I would try and increase the variety of combat situations, and also make it so there were alternative approaches (e.g. stealth, laying traps, negotiation) to achieving an objective. I was playing KOTOR the other day, and there is a great deal of variety, for example you can hack computers, turrets, lay mines etc. I'm not asking for Dues Ex style freedom, but a bit of variety would be nice.
For the combat itself, I think you can keep the mechanics/engine but inject some variety into the situations. For example, a bit more verticality would be nice e.g. fighting up a slope to an entrenched position, fighting from moving objects e.g. a battle on a train. There is real scope for some spectacle here.
#14
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:48
TheKillerAngel
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Crysis does a very good job with weapon modifications. Being able to fit a laser aim, grenade launcher, reflex sight, scope etc. to your weapons really provides many different ways on how to use them. Each weapon having modular mounting points on certain sections would be a great way to reintroduce the "upgrades" of Mass Effect 1. Each modification would offer unique effects - a laser aim would eliminate the crosshairs and well, give you a laser (much like the M5) in both the regular and "zoomed" modes. A holographic sight mounted on a rifle would give you a first-person zoom.
Stealth is also something I'd like to see. Right now combat events are extremely scripted, and there is no way to avoid an engagement. Some levels where you have a choice of blasting right through - or evading the enemy, or a mix of combat and stealth would be nice.
More accurate ballistics would be great to have. Certain weapons should be able to penetrate cover, and different cover should have different properties.
Stealth is also something I'd like to see. Right now combat events are extremely scripted, and there is no way to avoid an engagement. Some levels where you have a choice of blasting right through - or evading the enemy, or a mix of combat and stealth would be nice.
More accurate ballistics would be great to have. Certain weapons should be able to penetrate cover, and different cover should have different properties.
#15
Guest_kajtarp_*
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 02:56
Guest_kajtarp_*
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Primary and secondary fire mode for weapons and grenades.
This could be for example first mode short bursts( like vindicator) and full auto ( like avenger) mode for an assault rifle, or semi auto(mattock) and full auto, or full auto mode with one mode with slower fire rate other with higher fire rate or things like this.
Two fire mode for shotguns, one with less accuracy but bigger damage for close range, one with less damage but with more accuracy...
Timed detonation or manual detonation by grenades and so on...
This could be for example first mode short bursts( like vindicator) and full auto ( like avenger) mode for an assault rifle, or semi auto(mattock) and full auto, or full auto mode with one mode with slower fire rate other with higher fire rate or things like this.
Two fire mode for shotguns, one with less accuracy but bigger damage for close range, one with less damage but with more accuracy...
Timed detonation or manual detonation by grenades and so on...
Modifié par kajtarp, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:05 .
#16
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:09
Blk_Mage_Ctype
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Personally, I think the shooting elements are good enough. Bioware needs to get back to the RPG elements.
#17
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:09
PsyrenY
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FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
biotics aren't good enough, or class selections?{smilie}
class selection varies your playthroughs, but not combat itself; you aren't allowed to switch classes midway through the game without modding.
This is especially noticeable on a New Game+ - the core strategy of your class remains mostly the same, with the most complex choice being between close quarters or not.
TheKillerAngel wrote...
Crysis does a very good job with weapon modifications. Being able to fit a laser aim, grenade launcher, reflex sight, scope etc. to your weapons really provides many different ways on how to use them. Each weapon having modular mounting points on certain sections would be a great way to reintroduce the "upgrades" of Mass Effect 1. Each modification would offer unique effects - a laser aim would eliminate the crosshairs and well, give you a laser (much like the M5) in both the regular and "zoomed" modes. A holographic sight mounted on a rifle would give you a first-person zoom.
Excellent suggestion. In fact, "mounting points" provides another way to differentiate the weapons and add more complexity. For example, the Scimitar might have 5 mounting points while the Claymore only has 3. And in true ME1 tradition, the Geth weapons would have none at all due to their alien design, just as you cannot add mods to the GPR in ME1.
TheKillerAngel wrote...
More accurate ballistics would be great to have. Certain weapons should be able to penetrate cover, and different cover should have different properties.
This where grenades can shine - flushing enemies out with a wide blast, or raining down clusters above enemies' heads, or being ricocheted off a side wall to land next to them. Like weapon mods, grenade mods could add a lot of depth and complexity.
Modifié par Optimystic_X, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:03 .
#18
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:11
PsyrenY
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Blk_Mage_Ctype wrote...
Personally, I think the shooting elements are good enough. Bioware needs to get back to the RPG elements.
The two are not mutually exclusive; indeed, many of the enhancements I've proposed here can actually improve the RPG experience. (e.g. mobile cover enhancing immersion, weapon/grenade mods increasing need for an inventory system etc.)
#19
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:13
Kavadas
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I want a 360° battlefield. I'm really sick of every single level being nothing but a one-way tunnel.
It's frustrating when enemies only appear directly in front of you, you're in a twenty foot wide corridor, and there's a crate or two for you to duck behind.
"Yeah, let's repeat that for 30+ missions and hope the players don't get really sick of it!"
Thanks, Bioware. ME2 had the single worst level design I've ever experienced in any game I've experienced. It was absolutely abysmal.
IIRC the only instance in the game which offered multi-directional combat was the end of Kasumi's loyalty mission where you had to concern yourself with the gunship's moving field of fire and the spawn locations of the dismounts.
It's frustrating when enemies only appear directly in front of you, you're in a twenty foot wide corridor, and there's a crate or two for you to duck behind.
"Yeah, let's repeat that for 30+ missions and hope the players don't get really sick of it!"
Thanks, Bioware. ME2 had the single worst level design I've ever experienced in any game I've experienced. It was absolutely abysmal.
IIRC the only instance in the game which offered multi-directional combat was the end of Kasumi's loyalty mission where you had to concern yourself with the gunship's moving field of fire and the spawn locations of the dismounts.
Modifié par Kavadas, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .
#20
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:14
upsettingshorts
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Optimystic_X wrote...
The two are not mutually exclusive
Be careful, a statement like that on these boards is as controversial as Galileo claiming that the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth.
I'll give you one shot at guessing who the geocentrists of this forum are in this analogy.
Kavadas wrote...
Thanks, Bioware. ME2 had the single worst
level design I've ever experienced in any game I've experienced. It was
absolutely abysmal.
That's not true. Mass Effect 1 was much worse.
I'd like to be flanked now and then, that's for sure.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .
#21
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:17
Kavadas
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
Kavadas wrote...
Thanks, Bioware. ME2 had the single worst
level design I've ever experienced in any game I've experienced. It was
absolutely abysmal.
That's not true. Mass Effect 1 was much worse.
I'd like to be flanked now and then, that's for sure.
Whatever, at least ME1 had some wide open spaces and I could choose my avenue of approach when coming upon an objective instead of being funneled through a one-way tunnel layout for every single mission in the entire game.
Modifié par Kavadas, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:17 .
#22
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:24
Kronner
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Enemies:
- Enhance Enemy AI - this is a must, they are too stupid and predictable now
- Give enemies special tech (damping, overload), biotic (throw, warp, stasis) and combat (flashbangs, inferno grenades) and make them use these ALL the time on harder difficulties
- Make enemies attack player's position from several ways at once
- Make krogan enemies the way they were in ME1, not the joke ME2 krogan is
- Add enemy snipers - kinda like geth snipers in ME1 - make them do insane damage, on harder difficulties ability to one shot player
- Fix rockets - in ME2 rockets do laughable damage, but they stagger all the time - make them do high damage
Squad:
- Better AI is a must
- write special AI for each squadmate, not just a few different AI scripts based on the weapon they are using at the moment
General:
- Add weapon stats - it really sucks this is not present in ME2
- make armor meaningful - in ME2 armor makes very little difference on higher difficulties, it should make a significant difference (see ME1)
- none weapon option - do not force me to take a freaking pistol and heavy weapon if I do not want to
- Make upgrades much more noticeable, but also more limited - example - you can pick either damage or rate of fire upgrade, but you can't have both.
- Remove medigel OR automatic health regeneration
- Enhance Enemy AI - this is a must, they are too stupid and predictable now
- Give enemies special tech (damping, overload), biotic (throw, warp, stasis) and combat (flashbangs, inferno grenades) and make them use these ALL the time on harder difficulties
- Make enemies attack player's position from several ways at once
- Make krogan enemies the way they were in ME1, not the joke ME2 krogan is
- Add enemy snipers - kinda like geth snipers in ME1 - make them do insane damage, on harder difficulties ability to one shot player
- Fix rockets - in ME2 rockets do laughable damage, but they stagger all the time - make them do high damage
Squad:
- Better AI is a must
- write special AI for each squadmate, not just a few different AI scripts based on the weapon they are using at the moment
General:
- Add weapon stats - it really sucks this is not present in ME2
- make armor meaningful - in ME2 armor makes very little difference on higher difficulties, it should make a significant difference (see ME1)
- none weapon option - do not force me to take a freaking pistol and heavy weapon if I do not want to
- Make upgrades much more noticeable, but also more limited - example - you can pick either damage or rate of fire upgrade, but you can't have both.
- Remove medigel OR automatic health regeneration
#23
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:48
PsyrenY
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
Be careful, a statement like that on these boards is as controversial as Galileo claiming that the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth.
I'll give you one shot at guessing who the geocentrists of this forum are in this analogy.
LOL, believe me I know... but if I can quote Captain Anderson, "I'll keep fighting the good fight."
@ Kronner: I agree with 99% of what you said. I am fine with ME2 Krogan though... the ME1 version was only scary because they could charge so fast, but Shepard was faster then too.
I agree with enemy snipers, but I don't want them to be instant-cheese-death like they were in ME1. I'm not sure how to run them in such a way that they will matter without being cheap.
Enemies with Throw and Stasis would be an excellent addition as well.
#24
Guest_kajtarp_*
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 03:55
Guest_kajtarp_*
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One thing bothers me, that red colored frame around enemies, wich doesnt disappear, even if opponents are in cover. So i can know wich way is he moving, wich time is he popping out of cover(like a wallhack cheat in fps games), that makes the game very predictable and removes any chance of surprise..
@Kronner: cryo blast and pull/slam would be funny for enemies too...
@Kronner: cryo blast and pull/slam would be funny for enemies too...
Modifié par kajtarp, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:57 .
#25
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 04:00
spernus
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TheKillerAngel wrote...
Crysis does a very good job with weapon modifications. Being able to fit a laser aim, grenade launcher, reflex sight, scope etc. to your weapons really provides many different ways on how to use them. Each weapon having modular mounting points on certain sections would be a great way to reintroduce the "upgrades" of Mass Effect 1. Each modification would offer unique effects - a laser aim would eliminate the crosshairs and well, give you a laser (much like the M5) in both the regular and "zoomed" modes. A holographic sight mounted on a rifle would give you a first-person zoom.
Stealth is also something I'd like to see. Right now combat events are extremely scripted, and there is no way to avoid an engagement. Some levels where you have a choice of blasting right through - or evading the enemy, or a mix of combat and stealth would be nice.
More accurate ballistics would be great to have. Certain weapons should be able to penetrate cover, and different cover should have different properties.
There's plenty of good suggestions going around,including the Gears of War blindfire and mobile cover.
The problem is that it's way too soon for Bioware.They aren't there yet and won't be for ME 3,they are lacking years behind Epic games or Crytek when it come to shooter mechanics.This is akind to expect Crytek or Epic games to create a rpg when they have no experience and can't write themselves out of a paper bag in their shooters.
Remember that in january 2010,Bioware released a game where you can properly aim while firing a gun.Mass effect 2 isn't on par with the first Gears of War (a game released in 2006) in term of shooter mechanics,so don't expect miracle for the third game.
I would be happy for varied enemy AI,boss battle in the vein of Lotsb,nice variety of weapons with creative effect.
