20 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarethus]

When I first got the explanation regarding Closed Fist, I was very intrigued. It sounded like a very interesting philosophy. However the execution of the CF path in the game was just being a thug 85% of the time.

Take Iron Soldier and Smiling Hawk in the Imperial City. Both guys want us to take care of an opponent they cannot beat themselves and Smiling Hawk in my opinion goes further by: killing Radiant in a surprise attack and stealing abilities he hasn't earned. Quite frankly I wanted to trounce both of them as being unworthy of Closed Fist.

That being said there were a few occasions I think Closed Fist was done right:
On the pirates Island, you can choose to save a woman and her daughter, sell them as slaves or convince the daughter to fight for her freedom herself (by killing the slaver).I preferred the last option where your basically encouraging others to survive a reasonable challenge by their own strength. The guy who taught the Wind fighting style was also a good example. Obviously CF but not a thug either.

So the purpose of this thread: 

What changes would you have made to quests/story lines to make a better example of the Closed Fist philosophy?

Example:
1) Change Kia Min's quest/dialogue to allow you to choose a Closed Fist reason for giving the correct herbs, "I wish to prove my strength honestly ..."

[Tooneyman]

Closed fist seemed more of a philosophy for power and survive at all costs type of deal. Coming up with a written scenario for it wouldn't have been easy for the team at the time. I would actually liked to have talked with or even interview some of the writers who worked on JE and how they came up with that break up for the pirate island. I thought it was one of the most genius ways to show closed fist. Now yes being a tough arrogant thug is also part of closed fist, but it could have been done with more silk. The idea of your spirit monk showing that power is only achieve through closed fists path, by them stating if you have power you can control and survive easier, but they should have also had explain that even though you may take one path or another their are still concequences to both. I would have liked to see an ending in a bioware game where say I was the closed fist, but I take over and conquor the empire. Well even though I conquor the empire. I have made enemies through my arrogants. Thus you could see some of the enemies later on after the credits forming a rogue state. This would actually bring in onto the philosophies.

[Vicki Taylor]

That's right. I thought being a CF follower is something more than just being a rapist, thief and murderer. I expected CF would be able to prove her/his strength not by poisoning someone (like opportunity to poison Khana at Imperial Arena) but in honest, tough battle. It seems just more... possible to me, yes I liked this option to convince that sweet fish-peasant to give us her monies, but it's so... weak? Someone who is doing this is just not worthy to call himself/herself a CF follower IMO.

So if they have done this differently, I'd like CF path more.More opportunities to show our strength, less stealing and poisoning or cheating or whatever.

[Tooneyman]

^ I agree wejki, but I they should still have dush bags moments in the game. hehe. I think they should at least have a good and evil system as well just for the heck of it. I'm sorry, but I like being a evil bastard in my games everyonce in a while and the reason being is because bioware can make some really funny ones. hehe.

[Seagloom]

Other than the slave girl the only genuinely Closed Fist moments I remember were fighting Bladed Thesis at his full strength, overcoming the Forest Shadow and the Mother, leaving Tien's Landing with a sealed dam to fend for themselves, binding your party members to exert your superiority, and trouncing god mode Sun Li in the final battle. Where Closed Fist failed is there were too many moments that points were awarded for taking a sneaky way out. Too often CF was synonymous with evil.



To be fair, Open Palm was little better. We got to see all the good of Open Palm with none of the consequences Smiling Mountain warned us about. There were a few abstract examples and references--most frequently the Order of Things logic that pervaded through the game, but no instances were an Open Palm resolution had noticeably unexpected consequences. Maybe we could have seen a few if there was a direct sequel. Can you imagine how dependent the Jade Empire would be on its greatest heroine/hero after the fact? Gah. >.<



Picking out specific examples of where to make changes is tricky though. It's been years since I last played through it. While my 20+ playthroughs make it impossible to forget much of my experiences, there are quests I'm fuzzy on.

[Vicki Taylor]

Yes, I kinda enjoy being a evil bastard too, but I though it was a philosophy, not just stealing monies and being a frickin rogue... Maybe they should add something like Tactical Cloak/Stealth like in ME2/DA :|

OP was great, it was about helping ppls, being humble, sweet and polite. And CF was bad. I didn't like it. I hope they'll fix it in sequel. This game has its potential, and I really hope BW won't waste it...

And "Evil" ending was terrifying. Why killing all my squad? :< Idea to take away Sun Li's power was awesome, but with no squad - it kinda sucked >.> IMHO ofc.

[Tooneyman]

Wejki wrote...

Yes, I kinda enjoy being a evil bastard too, but I though it was a philosophy, not just stealing monies and being a frickin rogue... Maybe they should add something like Tactical Cloak/Stealth like in ME2/DA :|
OP was great, it was about helping ppls, being humble, sweet and polite. And CF was bad. I didn't like it. I hope they'll fix it in sequel. This game has its potential, and I really hope BW won't waste it...
And "Evil" ending was terrifying. Why killing all my squad? :.> IMHO ofc.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole evil ending of destroying and scraficing your squad. I really didn't want to kill my fox. hehe. She was like a good/bad type of romance. I do remember now. Eck. The evilness I did. Now I feel all dirty for some reason after remembering that ending.

[Seagloom]

See, my problem with Open Palm was it was just as bad as Closed Fist in terms of representation. It shouldn't have been perfect goodness no more than Closed Fist was unbridled cruelty. In reality both systems translated as lawful good and chaotic evil in the majority of quests. I very rarely see Open Palm criticized for this though. I think players are quicker to overlook its flaws since they get to play the heroine, and who doesn't want to be heroic?



@Tooneyman - It's possible to get your romance on your side though. >.< In my opinion Closed Fist Silk Fox was truer to her nature than Open Palm. It was funny how when she went OP, her meter was up maybe 20% with a faint blue aura surrounding her character screen image. (You can peek at this during the Dirge battle when taking control of her and Dawn Star.) Yet when she goes Closed Fist, she *really* goes Closed Fist and assumes the stance with swirling red energy around here. XD



My only regret in the CF path was killing Henpecked Hou. The man was harmless. Usually casualties were low though. On a standard game it was possible to finish with your love interest, Ya Zhen, Death's Hand, and the Black Whirlwind. That only left two of the three romance options and Hou. At most you only need to kill three party members. That said, it was wicked. Easily one of the simultaneously coolest and most wicked moments in a BioWare game. Although more cool than wicked. Corrupting the Water Dragon's essence wasn't nearly as distasteful to me as dominating Zalbaar into killing Mission in KotOR. That just made me feel terrible.

[Sarethus]

Nice replies everyone and I agree with Seagloom that the OP path didn't show enough of it's evil side, although I do believe that Sun Li our teacher was the closest you could get to it.



That being said here are a few of my other CF fixes:



Convince Wild Flower to take part in the fight in her body. To decide for herself who should be in charge. Now as Smiling Mountain said, the Closed Fist follower might help if the odds are unreasonable so I would wait and see if Wild Flower was willing to fight as best she could and then intervene (little girl against Demon is unreasonable odds any way you look at it.)



Same with the Little girl in the Imperial City who was being black mailed by the prefect. I was impressed that she made it as far through the grave yard as she did by herself, I gladly aided her in her quest and thought it wrong that I got Open Palm points for letting her keep the artifact (and got Closed Fist Points for taking it from her.) Maybe a dialogue option to encourage her to follow the CF path?



Crimson Khana was another example, I might not warn her about the poison (she should be strong enough to protect herself) but I would not poison her myself either.



Convince Henpecked Hou to fight back against his wife. (The ULTIMATE mark of a Closed Fist follower.)



Looking back at the game I actually feel that what Bioware should have done is implement a dialogue choice either during or just after the quest allowing you to explain why you chose as you did. Did you help a person out for monetary rewards? Did you save a child from a demon because it was the right thing to do or because the odds were unreasonable? Did you open the Dam because of Money or because you wanted to see the people of Tien's landing grow stronger?

[Tooneyman]

@seagloom, I think I was able to keep sky on my side if I remember correctly. I did only two characters and it was a long time ago when I played it, but I do remember turning wild flower into a demon and I got a chuckle out of that one. I didn't know however you could check your LI auras. I'll have to check that out once I beat my new game. Right now I'm playing the neutral path which is freaking weird sense I don't get many points. Most of my suggestions are in intuition.

[Vicki Taylor]

You can check points of Black Whirlwind, Silk Fox/Dawn Star (depends on who you will choose to take control to protect this mad man which built flyer) in the Dirge.

Playing neutral was kinda unprofitable... Eventually you'll have to make a choice - good or evil. But that's an interesting way to play JE

Yes! Yes yes yes! I'd LOVE to convince Hou to tell his wife "F*ck off beyotch" shame that we don't get this option :| She's probably looking like this woman from Black Panther School xD

[Tooneyman]

"I figured the neutral path actually in the end is letting your master win.

[Vicki Taylor]

Ah, this "ultimate sacrifice" ending. That's right. IMO it wasn't the right choice for Empire but well..

[Sarethus]

Tooneyman wrote...

"I figured the neutral path actually in the end is letting your master win.

In my opinion that was the corrupt OP ending, your supporting corrupt social order. 

[Vicki Taylor]

Sarethus wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

"I figured the neutral path actually in the end is letting your master win.

In my opinion that was the corrupt OP ending, your supporting corrupt social order. 

I don't think so. IMHO it was meant to be "neutral" ending, but it didn't worked. It was kinda like corrupt CF ending actually... <_<

[Tooneyman]

Wejki wrote...

Sarethus wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

"I figured the neutral path actually in the end is letting your master win.

In my opinion that was the corrupt OP ending, your supporting corrupt social order. 

I don't think so. IMHO it was meant to be "neutral" ending, but it didn't worked. It was kinda like corrupt CF ending actually... <_<

What they should have done with that ending was let you walk away from your master and just let him finish what he started only this time not turning your back on him. Later it would show your character walking around the town and you see everyone in a corrupt trance. That would be more of a neutral ending sense you just stayed out of everything, but instead saved your own life.

[Vicki Taylor]

Tooneyman wrote...

Wejki wrote...

Sarethus wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

"I figured the neutral path actually in the end is letting your master win.

In my opinion that was the corrupt OP ending, your supporting corrupt social order. 

I don't think so. IMHO it was meant to be "neutral" ending, but it didn't worked. It was kinda like corrupt CF ending actually... <_<

What they should have done with that ending was let you walk away from your master and just let him finish what he started only this time not turning your back on him. Later it would show your character walking around the town and you see everyone in a corrupt trance. That would be more of a neutral ending sense you just stayed out of everything, but instead saved your own life.

Exactly. Still kinda cruel but more neutral than this. However I couldn't do that with neutral character. Maybe that's because I only played neutral in DA.
If I'm playing as evil bastard... I mean, CF follower, there is no walking away or hesitating...

Modifié par Wejki, 25 septembre 2010 - 01:23 .

[Tooneyman]

Although you have to admit in the closed fist ending the fact that everyone bows submits to your power is pretty sweet so it wasn't all bad. You just basically destroyed the water spirit and consumed all of her essence with a smile on your face. I mean you did want nothing, but power which is kind of what closed fist represented, but in the long run. The final bit should have been altered. They should have had your character go off and look for a greater challege. I would say going after the other gods. The reason for this is closed fist was kind of also being the most powerful. If I remember from watching old kung fu movies. Closed fist philosophy was also stated to be a person who also gained power and after they gained it they would look for a more powerful enemy or a being who could test their strenght against.

[Vicki Taylor]

Yes, I thought "Hey, nao when I'm so powerful I should seek for moar gods or maybe conquer other countries"... And IMO being a Closed Fist means a need to prove and test strenght, seek for power endlessly, and sometimes just walking away. If BioWare just wanted to do a way to play for evil bastards without any additional philosophic stuff, why calling it "philosophy"?

Ending was okay. At least I knew 'twas Closed Fist.

[Big I]

Nyoka wrote...
CF requires you to absolutely lack empathy. You don't feel sorry, you don't sympathize with the weak--that makes you weak. It's like look, I've spent my entire life getting beatings from my master and training my ass off just to be where I am now, i.e., MILES ahead of you. Now, you lazy peasant want my help. Yeah right. Get out of my way, you ant. You don't deserve it.

I disagree. In the Zither of Discord quest you can ask Bladed Thesis about the morality of CF, and he responds by saying that the best thing you can do for people is encourage them to be self reliant. He basically argues that CF is good on both a personal level (it makes you stronger) and on a societal level (people are less open to exploitation if they're self reliant). That's always been been my understanding of CF.


My problem with how it's implemented is that playing completely CF is basically being a psychotic Sith lord. What's that, I should cover up this slaving ring and help them operate, even though they're selling to the Lotus Assassins? I should kill both this old man and his son, thus ensuring I don't get paid? Please.


Another missed opportunity was having more dialogue options influence OP/CF as well as quest options. If I'm only doing something to get paid, let my CF points reflect that.