My vote: No tanks for any dark fantasy.
What's your definition of "dark" fantasy, how much of it would you like to see in DA?
Débuté par
Khraum
, sept. 13 2010 06:55
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#27
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:43
Saibh
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mr will jc wrote...
Anyone that read berserk understands true dark fantasy.
Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate and "sadistic" villains.
I did read it. It's silly. And that guy has weird fetishes, considering all of the rape that goes on in it and his obsession with detailing it exactly and stripping the female lead down whenever he can. Sufferin' Sappho, Japan edition! I would say that's a pretty terrible example, and one that I would hold up as "This is how not to handle mature themes like rape, torture, gore and anything that could possibly be seen as dark in nature!", right up there with "Hurr hurr, The Witcher has sex in it, it's mature, hurr hurr!".
#28
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:45
gotthammer
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Hmm. Dark Fantasy? I guess it'd be a setting, primarily, with little to no HOPE. Kinda like the Warhammer setting (the novels and the pen-and-paper RPG, or even the tabletop Mordheim setting...not the MMO. The MMO was bad, IMHO), for the most part, where the enemies of mankind (in either Fantasy or 40k), are forever gradually encroaching and seem, ultimately, unstoppable.
There's also the 'oppressive atmosphere': I guess that feeling where you're not supposed to be 'comfortable' because of the pervasiveness of the setting's threat (again, going back to Warhammer Fantasy: there's Chaos in it's myriad forms, whether it's cultists, Chaos armies, warpstone and plagues from the Skaven, the 'whisperings' of the Chaos gods, etc.)
And, yeah, 'mature themes' are a given for a 'dark fantasy' setting.
I guess it's a good thing Bioware added that 'heroic' thing (to make it 'Heroic Dark Fantasy')...hehehe, maybe that'll be enough to justify a happy ending? (or the ability to choose a 'happy path'?
)
I still think, tho', that DA:O was lacking in terms of atmosphere, visuals in particular (again, compare to The Witcher).
edit: as for how much I'd like to see in DA: DA:O's 'amount' of 'dark' was ok, I guess. But, again, it just felt that it didn't do it 'enough' visually (again, the lack of 'atmosphere'). Maybe a more 'sidequests' emphasizing how 'dark' it could be (more stuff along the lines of that quest in the Alienage Orphanage. IMHO, that, too, was lacking 'visually': didn't feel 'creeepy'...felt a bit 'forced', if anything, tho' it did 'emphasize dark'. Gawd...I hope I'm making sense.
)
There's also the 'oppressive atmosphere': I guess that feeling where you're not supposed to be 'comfortable' because of the pervasiveness of the setting's threat (again, going back to Warhammer Fantasy: there's Chaos in it's myriad forms, whether it's cultists, Chaos armies, warpstone and plagues from the Skaven, the 'whisperings' of the Chaos gods, etc.)
And, yeah, 'mature themes' are a given for a 'dark fantasy' setting.
I guess it's a good thing Bioware added that 'heroic' thing (to make it 'Heroic Dark Fantasy')...hehehe, maybe that'll be enough to justify a happy ending? (or the ability to choose a 'happy path'?
) I still think, tho', that DA:O was lacking in terms of atmosphere, visuals in particular (again, compare to The Witcher).
edit: as for how much I'd like to see in DA: DA:O's 'amount' of 'dark' was ok, I guess. But, again, it just felt that it didn't do it 'enough' visually (again, the lack of 'atmosphere'). Maybe a more 'sidequests' emphasizing how 'dark' it could be (more stuff along the lines of that quest in the Alienage Orphanage. IMHO, that, too, was lacking 'visually': didn't feel 'creeepy'...felt a bit 'forced', if anything, tho' it did 'emphasize dark'. Gawd...I hope I'm making sense.
)
Modifié par gotthammer, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:58 .
#29
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:46
term8
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Khraum wrote...
No heroic/happy endings. All gains you make in your player's life should be followed with some loss. Finishing the game should not give you a sense of relief and being a hero, but some discomfort for the decisions you made,
and here i thought video games were a means of escaping real life ha ha jk
Much darker characters, including companions. This includes some who are "really" evil and even psychologically disturbed.
I wouldn't mind some totally evil characters... but if it flies in the face of "realism" (ha) than no.. for example the motavations for a completely evil person to follow your hero must be fleshed out and make sense... i have a feeling this would be a challenge with a psychopathic character.
I agree with your statement about the elven alieanage rape scene... i feel that if a game is going to include issues such as rape they should do them justice. the formality and shianni's speedy recovery from the whole ordeal seemed to cheapen it.. maybe just me
#30
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:46
DarthCaine
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DAO isn't at all a dark fantasy setting
They should take a look at The Witcher
They should take a look at The Witcher
Modifié par DarthCaine, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:47 .
#31
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:47
Maverick827
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Obviously the easiest comparison to make, at least for what Dragon Age was shooting for, is A Song of Ice and Fire. Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate...all handled maturely.
Also, infanticide; it's kind of tough to do that one correctly.
Also, infanticide; it's kind of tough to do that one correctly.
#32
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:47
Anarya
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I don't know if I've really thought about it. I guess like someone else pointed out, moral ambiguity to the villains and choices is a part of it. What I want out of DA2 is for it not to shy away from dark themes or elements if they're appropriate to the story, but I definitely do not want everyone around me to be a psychopath or every choice to have a bad consequence. It sort of takes away the impact of the dark stuff if you're too heavy handed with it. There needs to be contrast.
Modifié par Anarya, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:48 .
#33
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:50
foodstuffs
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WilliamShatner wrote...
"Dark" is the most overused PR buzzword of the past decade.
I disagree. I think "features" fills that role.
PR- "Look at all these features! (the average customers say "oohhh") Blah, blah, blah...etc. Any Questions?"
Not-So-Average Customer- *raises hand* "I have a question."
PR- "Shoot."
Not-So-Average Customer- "My question is this... what, if anything, do these features have to do with the game and story?"
PR and Average Customers- "Troll! Blah, blah, blah...etc..."
sigh...
#34
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:51
Orbweaver
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Dark: This means the characters involved in the story are "in the dark" about several goings on in the larger scheme of the universe, and each have their own unique flaws that can contribute to a series of consequences (both desirable and undesirable), not only for themselves, but for those around them. Dark does not mean a bunch of complete, psychotic, raving lunatics who repeatedly fail to control hormonal impulses like ill-raised teenagers- that's something I can find on the news all too often.
Fantasy implies things that don't exist or aren't capable of being done in reality.
Fantasy implies things that don't exist or aren't capable of being done in reality.
#35
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:55
mr will jc
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Saibh wrote...
mr will jc wrote...
Anyone that read berserk understands true dark fantasy.
Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate and "sadistic" villains.
I did read it. It's silly. And that guy has weird fetishes, considering all of the rape that goes on in it and his obsession with detailing it exactly and stripping the female lead down whenever he can. Sufferin' Sappho, Japan edition! I would say that's a pretty terrible example, and one that I would hold up as "This is how not to handle mature themes like rape, torture, gore and anything that could possibly be seen as dark in nature!", right up there with "Hurr hurr, The Witcher has sex in it, it's mature, hurr hurr!".
PLZ, go watch TELETUBBIES
#36
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 08:55
Avilia
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Take the DR out of Origins - then you have what I consider dark fantasy. Someone 'has' to die to end the Blight. The player has to make a choice, Alistair, Loghain or themselves.
Then add the option to leave the country to the mercies of the Darkspawn.
That to me is dark fantasy - not very commercially viable I'd say but there ya go ;-)
Then add the option to leave the country to the mercies of the Darkspawn.
That to me is dark fantasy - not very commercially viable I'd say but there ya go ;-)
#37
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:00
Sir JK
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To me a dark fantasy is one that approaches the real world. There is unimaginable cruelty and apathy, but also heartwarming mercy and people rushing to the side of others. A world were things are bad but the little things you do can still have an insirational impact.
I think Dragon Age: Origins succeded rather well with this. It can naturally improve on it, I personally would like to see some more dilemmas and such, but overall it was good.
I think Dragon Age: Origins succeded rather well with this. It can naturally improve on it, I personally would like to see some more dilemmas and such, but overall it was good.
#38
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:00
Anarya
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Oh and also, I consider BSG to be pretty dark and "mature", but it has funny and touching moments and a happy ending and I don't think these things make it suddenly not a dark show.
#39
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:04
Maverick827
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Honestly, it's getting easier and easier to spot the trolls from avatar alone.mr will jc wrote...
PLZ, go watch TELETUBBIES
#40
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:05
Quercus
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Maverick827 wrote...
Obviously the easiest comparison to make, at least for what Dragon Age was shooting for, is A Song of Ice and Fire. Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate...all handled maturely.
Also, infanticide; it's kind of tough to do that one correctly.
Which Bioware failed at unfortunately, I don't mean fail as a bad thing, they just didn't get to the Dark/Mature level of the Song of Ice and Fire.
The Witcher 1 took a step at it as well, they didn't made it all the way either because of some.. childish jokes.
But their step is closer then the 1 Bioware made, and from what I've learned from TW2 it will yet again come closer or even make it at that point.
But I don't care if DA becomes a Dark Fantasy or a High Fantasy, as long as they go for 1 of them, and don't try to mixed it up.
And what would be my view of a Dark Fantasy? I would point at the book The Song of Ice and Fire as reverance, if you havn't read it yet, go read it. It's an amazing good book.
Modifié par Shiroukai, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:23 .
#41
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:07
gotthammer
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Anarya wrote...
Oh and also, I consider BSG to be pretty dark and "mature", but it has funny and touching moments and a happy ending and I don't think these things make it suddenly not a dark show.
How about 'Farscape'?
It was usually funny, but was pretty dark, as a whole...
(esp. in the last 2 seasons)
#42
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:08
Anarya
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gotthammer wrote...
Anarya wrote...
Oh and also, I consider BSG to be pretty dark and "mature", but it has funny and touching moments and a happy ending and I don't think these things make it suddenly not a dark show.
How about 'Farscape'?
It was usually funny, but was pretty dark, as a whole...
(esp. in the last 2 seasons)
Haven't watched that one, maybe I should though.
#43
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:10
Saibh
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mr will jc wrote...
Saibh wrote...
mr will jc wrote...
Anyone that read berserk understands true dark fantasy.
Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate and "sadistic" villains.
I did read it. It's silly. And that guy has weird fetishes, considering all of the rape that goes on in it and his obsession with detailing it exactly and stripping the female lead down whenever he can. Sufferin' Sappho, Japan edition! I would say that's a pretty terrible example, and one that I would hold up as "This is how not to handle mature themes like rape, torture, gore and anything that could possibly be seen as dark in nature!", right up there with "Hurr hurr, The Witcher has sex in it, it's mature, hurr hurr!".
PLZ, go watch TELETUBBIES
I prefer Hello Kitty. Seriously, if you wanted to prove your point that Berserk is a mature and dark fantasy, and not GORE AND ******! for people who don't understand the word/s, maybe you should have stopped and explained to me why. You know, maturely.
But you went ahead and proved my point for me, so hats off to you, sir!
Modifié par Saibh, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:13 .
#45
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:13
Stefanocrpg_rev91
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For me, Dragon Age: Origins was a good start, but there's still something the writers could do to improve this particular aspect of the game.
First of all, some concepts were rarely shown in-game. I mean, you read that elves are slaves, they're forced to live humble lives and all but if you're an elf too many people treat you like a normal human.
And the same for the mages... almost every people on the face of Ferelden (and of Thedas) should fear you and hate you, and instead few people behave like that when talking to you.
Then, to make the game "darker" or more "mature" (use the term you want, it's the same to me), you should have less happy endings situations and more ambiguity over decisions... possibly no good and no bad decisions to make, but every possibility you may choose has to have reasons behind it and bonus and malus for the player who choses it. For example in DAO the possibility to call the mages and cure Connor without killing his mother could be ok, but to do that you left Redcliff at the will of the demon who should have continued with his killings, assembling an army of undeads. So, when you return there, you had to discover that the demon had killed other people in town, maybe even destroyed it or killed Teagan (examples) so that you pay a price for the decision you make, instead of the happy ending where everyone is saved.
After that, you should have more long-term consequences, like you found this guy who's working with your enemies: he's defenseless and beg you to let him live. Let him live actually seem the good thing to do, but you do that and he continue to help your enemies so you get more troubles fighting them, while if you killed him you murder one guy but at the same time reduce the strenght of you opponents. Just an example, anyway, and not even the best one. But most of the choices you made should have both bonuses and maluses.
In this side I think DA's team could look at The Witcher and take something from it (though I preferred DAO to The Witcher overall, CDP's work is more morally ambiguous because it's based on an already existing background and all created by the pen of Sapkovsky).
Oh, and while Loghain was great as an enemy because he wasn't the evil that want to destroy the world with no reason kind of enemy (actually he wanted to save Ferelden but by his own way), darkspawn and the Archdemon were just mindless beasts. And so in DA2 your main opponent should have his own motivations to do what he do, not just want to destroy everything he sees because he likes killing and all of this stuff (but I think they take the right direction, from what I read).
First of all, some concepts were rarely shown in-game. I mean, you read that elves are slaves, they're forced to live humble lives and all but if you're an elf too many people treat you like a normal human.
And the same for the mages... almost every people on the face of Ferelden (and of Thedas) should fear you and hate you, and instead few people behave like that when talking to you.
Then, to make the game "darker" or more "mature" (use the term you want, it's the same to me), you should have less happy endings situations and more ambiguity over decisions... possibly no good and no bad decisions to make, but every possibility you may choose has to have reasons behind it and bonus and malus for the player who choses it. For example in DAO the possibility to call the mages and cure Connor without killing his mother could be ok, but to do that you left Redcliff at the will of the demon who should have continued with his killings, assembling an army of undeads. So, when you return there, you had to discover that the demon had killed other people in town, maybe even destroyed it or killed Teagan (examples) so that you pay a price for the decision you make, instead of the happy ending where everyone is saved.
After that, you should have more long-term consequences, like you found this guy who's working with your enemies: he's defenseless and beg you to let him live. Let him live actually seem the good thing to do, but you do that and he continue to help your enemies so you get more troubles fighting them, while if you killed him you murder one guy but at the same time reduce the strenght of you opponents. Just an example, anyway, and not even the best one. But most of the choices you made should have both bonuses and maluses.
In this side I think DA's team could look at The Witcher and take something from it (though I preferred DAO to The Witcher overall, CDP's work is more morally ambiguous because it's based on an already existing background and all created by the pen of Sapkovsky).
Oh, and while Loghain was great as an enemy because he wasn't the evil that want to destroy the world with no reason kind of enemy (actually he wanted to save Ferelden but by his own way), darkspawn and the Archdemon were just mindless beasts. And so in DA2 your main opponent should have his own motivations to do what he do, not just want to destroy everything he sees because he likes killing and all of this stuff (but I think they take the right direction, from what I read).
#46
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:13
SoleSong
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Do I need to play a "dark" game... NO... would not buy one either... nor a horror game... I can not see what I should learn or beeing uplifted, having a great time, by that.
I think I would look in wonder on somebody wanting game like that... hope nobody think I am diskriminating by thinking like that.
If "dark" only meen some small sex like in Origin, we are not speaking about the same thing.
I think I would look in wonder on somebody wanting game like that... hope nobody think I am diskriminating by thinking like that.
If "dark" only meen some small sex like in Origin, we are not speaking about the same thing.
#47
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:15
captain.subtle
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I am a bit skeptical about the Dark = Realistic thing. It tells me that Dark fantasy does not exist if the world were a happy place.
#48
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Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:17
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Lumikki wrote...
My vote: No tanks for any dark fantasy.
I can't help but wonder whether you're referring to the RPG archetype or the vehicle.
All I want in Dragon Age 2 is for it to have realistic and morally ambiguous choices. I try to stay as far away as I can from the endless debate over what does or does not constitute "maturity," however. Seems everyone has their own opinion on that.
Modifié par filaminstrel, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:18 .
#49
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:18
Saibh
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filaminstrel wrote...
Lumikki wrote...
My vote: No tanks for any dark fantasy.
I can't help but wonder whether you're referring to the RPG archetype or the vehicle.
All I want in Dragon Age 2 is for it to have realistic and morally ambiguous choices. I try to stay as far away as I can from the endless debate over what does or does not constitute "maturity," however. Seems everyone has their own opinion on that.
...I thought it was a typo for "No thanks".
#50
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 09:20
Quercus
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SoleSong wrote...
Do I need to play a "dark" game... NO... would not buy one either... nor a horror game... I can not see what I should learn or beeing uplifted, having a great time, by that.
I think I would look in wonder on somebody wanting game like that... hope nobody think I am diskriminating by thinking like that.
If "dark" only meen some small sex like in Origin, we are not speaking about the same thing.
Kinda odd you bought DA:O then though, cause the devs portrait it as a Dark Fantasy (which in the end wasn't really so, but we allready discussed it on that matter).
Modifié par Shiroukai, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .
