171 réponses à ce sujet

[foodstuffs]

Wishpig wrote...

It must have been a long time because that very poorly describes the witcher. It's almost like you never played it at all...

You really really need to play it agian.

Enlighten me.

[DMC12]

I thought Demon Souls did a good job of building a dark fantasy environment, the frustrating feeling that you got death after death helped too. The story was nonexistent and the graphics could have been better for a PS3 title, but stylized scenery, characters/enemies, and items was done quite well, in my opinion, and helped propel you along when you had no idea what the hell was going on in the plot.

[Wishpig]

foodstuffs wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

It must have been a long time because that very poorly describes the witcher. It's almost like you never played it at all...

You really really need to play it agian.

Enlighten me.

Ok brought my points from the other post to this post.

Let me give you the typical Witcher scenario. Mr. Merchant is selling
supplies to the almost terrorist like elves (and a few dwarfs). The
elves are known for brutally killing innocent humans, but at the same
time have been prosecuted by humans. Do you let them take the supplies
so they can survive and fight for their freedom? Or do you fight them
and stop them from taking the innocent lives... which they will take.

The
vast majority of choices are in the grey zone, with no right or wrong.
Sure there are a few exceptions, but for the most part, it always seems
to be lose/lose... many times your just not sure if you did the right thing...

Also unless you play the game twice you don't
always learn both sides of the story. If you help the witch in chapter
two (which I'll admit does at first seem like the good choice) you never find out
she was part of a brutal cult and maybe responsible for the terrible
actions in the village.

don't beleave me check out the wiki

witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Storyline#Chapter_IV_.28Lakeside.29

Modifié par Wishpig, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[foodstuffs]

Hmm... perhaps I should play it again then.

[Krytheos]

Saibh wrote...

mr will jc wrote...

Anyone that read berserk understands true dark fantasy.

Betrayal, gore, rape, injustice, violence, love, hate and "sadistic" villains.

I did read it. It's silly. And that guy has weird fetishes, considering all of the rape that goes on in it and his obsession with detailing it exactly and stripping the female lead down whenever he can. Sufferin' Sappho, Japan edition! I would say that's a pretty terrible example, and one that I would hold up as "This is how not to handle mature themes like rape, torture, gore and anything that could possibly be seen as dark in nature!", right up there with "Hurr hurr, The Witcher has sex in it, it's mature, hurr hurr!".

I hate to disagree with you, but I do quite disagree. I agree that it is silly whenever he strips the female lead down, but as for the rape, torture, and gore, it is done in an exceedingly mature manner. It may seem like a 'ridiculous' bloodbath, but that's what happens -in- war, especially if you have swords axes and the like; there will be a lot of blood, and often delimbing. Sometimes it can be ridiculous, but most of the time it is handled quite well, all in all, especially considering some of the other darker, mature manga out there.

Berserk's world is portrayed quite well, all in all, compared to most 'dark' fantasies. Every villain in Berserk has a backstory, as does every single Apostle, and each one's story is often unique and interesting. That's how a dark fantasy should be portrayed; that the villains are/were each their own person with their own goals, and shows the lead up to using the Behelit during their worst moment of despair.

And truth be told, if he has weird fetishes, then George R.R. Martin seems to have weird fetishes as well, concerning the things they both portray in their respective works of art. I don't see it as a fetish because a writer creates a story that he or she wants to create; if the world is a dark place, sometimes it is silly, sometimes it isn't. There really aren't 'fetishes' so much so as things the writer wants to portray in such a way, at least concerning books, or stories.

And the thing with detailing rape exactly is just that; detailing it exactly. How do you describe rape in a book? How do you portray a rape that has happened offscreen tastefully, if it can be tasteful at all? And how do you portray the victims feelings and emotions during/after it? Honestly, no one has ever pinpointed how, because those who write about it or portray it can never pinpoint it exactly, because the experience is unique to each and every individual. 

DA: O is a dark heroic fantasy, yes. And it accomplishes it quite well, to be honest. There's only so much you can put in a game before it becomes AO, and keep it mature-rated, and to be honest, I would like it to be darker. Not like 'holy god why' dark, but just darker in tone. Atmospheric. It doesn't have to be portrayed on screen, itdoesn't have to be shown in explicit detail. In fact, it's better if it's more atmospheric. The Hespith rhyme comes to mind as one of the darker bits, since it uses your imagination vs. explicitly telling or showing you.

In my opinion there should be happy endings for those who WORK for them. 

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding

In my opinion, you do need to have happy endings, but in dark and mature-toned settings, you should need to earn it, not just suddenly 'get' it. And there should be less 'TakeAThirdOption's in things like the Connor quest. I'm not saying it shouldn't end happy; I'm saying making it so you have to choose between two equally HARD decisions would make it better, instead of giving you a third choice that literally has no consequences behind it.

Give a consequence for every hard decision and if there's a third super happy ending, make that choice's consequence matter. Make it so the player sees and knows what he/she did, and what happened afterwords -- years, months, whatever amount of time afterwords -- was a direct consequence to taking that third option, that maybe wouldn't have occured by taking one of the other two given options. The decisions in Origins did matter to an extent, but there were one too many third options with no consequences. My perfect defition of dark is..humn.

A Song of Ice And Fire, really, is the only one that comes to mind. The Witcher wasn't dark, and still isn't. You can claim it has sex and violence in it, but it has to have context and subtext beyond that to make it dark, to make it feel and look dark and bleak. The Witcher just didn't seem to have that at all.

[Challseus]

Khraum wrote...

For me dark fantasy means:

No inhibitions on content: The game should be willing to explore anything (including torture, rape, incest or what some of the posts have raised) and to do so in a shocking way IF IT SUITS THE STORY. I'm not saying that it should do these thing for the sake of being sick, but that if it fits a much darker theme, the game should use it. 

Playing the game should give you strong emotions and a maybe sense of shock and personal torment, and deliberate try to push you to do certain things. Like for the city elf origins in DAO, your warden's feelings towards humans and some of the actions you want to take later in the game could have been much different if Vaugh had actually raped you.

No heroic/happy endings. All gains you make in your player's life should be followed with some loss. Finishing the game should not give you a sense of relief and being a hero, but some discomfort for the decisions you made,

Total moral ambiguity in decisions: There shouldn't be moral ambiguity in a few decisions like in DAO, but all choices should have good and bad consequences, and doing what seems good might in one instance might have a bad outcome the next.

Much darker characters, including companions. This includes some who are "really" evil and even psychologically disturbed.

This, I would like.

[Vandrayke]

Joe Abercrombie's books are perfect examples of dark fantasy, imo



The protagonists have troubled pasts and often enough, they don't even feel like heroes. But they do heroic things anyways, even if not always for heroic reasons.

[Vandrayke]

Bittersweet endings >>>>>>>>>>> * endings



Happy endings are obviously cliche, and anti-happy endings feel contrived and are irritating.

[Dhiro]

Doesn't matter if Berserk makes me cry, I can't stop myself to say "again, woman?" everytime a female character is (almost) raped. Especially if there's a horse in the scene. I just think that I wouldn't like if Dragon Age turned into something like Berserk, I guess...

[Vandrayke]

Also "really evil" characters are lame



Psychotic killer types? No thanks, unless it's a minor character.



Self-interested, unscrupulous characters? I can deal with that.

[Vandrayke]

A good illustration of effective and believable antagonists is in Sanderson's new book, The Way of Kings.



The antagonists aren't immediately obvious and their motivations are believable when they act against the protagonists.

[Vandrayke]

slimgrin wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

A good illustration of effective and believable antagonists is in Sanderson's new book, The Way of Kings.

The antagonists aren't immediately obvious and their motivations are believable when they act against the protagonists.

But is this dark fantasy or just realism? Both DA and The Witcher do this too. As was mentioned, maybe neither are dark fantasy, but 'realistic' fantasy. Although DA has the blight which is reminiscent of Tolkein ( high fantasy/ heroic fantasy)

Ideally, it's how antagonists would be in dark fantasy, imo.  Way of Kings isn't that much of a dark fantasy, but since I just read that book, I thought of the antagonists and how much I like the way they were done.   

[Vandrayke]

And I'm kind of all over the place and just commenting on everything

[Krytheos]

Vandrayke wrote...

And I'm kind of all over the place and just commenting on everything

Honestly, Brandon Sanderson's villains are very interesting, even if his books aren't the 'best they are still often good, with interesting plots and characters, and very believable villains. Though I dislike somethings about his books, for the most part, they are good.

If anything, he definitely does the villain thing right in many ways.

[Vandrayke]

Krytheos wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

And I'm kind of all over the place and just commenting on everything

Honestly, Brandon Sanderson's villains are very interesting, even if his books aren't the 'best they are still often good, with interesting plots and characters, and very believable villains. Though I dislike somethings about his books, for the most part, they are good.

If anything, he definitely does the villain thing right in many ways.

I agree completely.  I don't think he's the best author out there (at least not yet) but his villains have always been done right.  

[Vandrayke]

Another way for dark fantasy to be better would be for all the dwarves and elves to die of plague

[Vandrayke]

nothing ruins the dark fantasy vibe like elves in the woods with bows and dwarves underground with axes

[foodstuffs]

I pulled out The Witcher... and quickly remembered why I hated playing it (I have in fact beat it but it was so long ago). I've actually tried to play it from time to time, always stopping for the same reason, eventually forgetting it. I guess this is why my memories of the game have faded so much. Is there a camera fix/mod worth note? I really don't like the fact that the camera (any mode) makes me not want to play it as I really liked it, just hated playing it. I tried looking but I'm not very good at this sort of thing, also I wouldn't know what is trusted. I'd like to get some of the game played while this topic is still alive, for reference.

[wwwwowwww]

If your talking bad guys, I kind of like the type that John Trovolta played in Swordfish. lol I know it's odd, but someone, who in their mind, thought they were doing what was in the best interest of their nation, but they didn't care who they hurt or what they did in doing so. So if it meant he thought he needed to burn down this villiage for a tactical advantage, or whatever, he would do so in a heart beat without giving a 2nd thought to those he hurt in the process.

If he felt it was better to strike at the heart of a neighboring nation before they acted first he would do so without looking for consent or approval. He's doing what he thinks is right, but is uncaring of the hurt and chaos he is causing in the meantime.

[Stefanocrpg_rev91]

foodstuffs wrote...

I pulled out The Witcher... and quickly remembered why I hated playing it (I have in fact beat it but it was so long ago). I've actually tried to play it from time to time, always stopping for the same reason, eventually forgetting it. I guess this is why my memories of the game have faded so much. Is there a camera fix/mod worth note? I really don't like the fact that the camera (any mode) makes me not want to play it as I really liked it, just hated playing it. I tried looking but I'm not very good at this sort of thing, also I wouldn't know what is trusted. I'd like to get some of the game played while this topic is still alive, for reference.

You can set the camera in the third persion mode, you don't need to zoom out as in DAO since you control only one character and controls are more action/hack 'n' slash oriented.

[Wishpig]

foodstuffs wrote...

I pulled out The Witcher... and quickly remembered why I hated playing it (I have in fact beat it but it was so long ago). I've actually tried to play it from time to time, always stopping for the same reason, eventually forgetting it. I guess this is why my memories of the game have faded so much. Is there a camera fix/mod worth note? I really don't like the fact that the camera (any mode) makes me not want to play it as I really liked it, just hated playing it. I tried looking but I'm not very good at this sort of thing, also I wouldn't know what is trusted. I'd like to get some of the game played while this topic is still alive, for reference.

Well the devs came out with a HUGE free patch that adds allot to the game (like animations, redone and added english voice-work, more models, inventory managment, ect) and that made this good game a GREAT game as it adressed the majority of complaints.

However, I do not think the camera was among them.

Perhaps you forgot, but one of the reasons it's hard to get into, is because combat sucks untill you get mid-level and actually have some spells/combos to work with. Combat is really really no fun at first. Tedious even.

Honestly I disliked the first two chapters. The gameplay and the story bored the hell out of me. Sadly those first two chapters were LONG. Once I hit the third chapter and got into the city it felt like a whole new game.. I couldn't put it down.

It is a struggle to replay it, I know what you mean, but worth the tedious first few hours. The enhanced edition really makes it worth the replay.

[Saibh]

Krytheos wrote...

I hate to disagree with you, but I do quite disagree. I agree that it is silly whenever he strips the female lead down, but as for the rape, torture, and gore, it is done in an exceedingly mature manner. It may seem like a 'ridiculous' bloodbath, but that's what happens -in- war, especially if you have swords axes and the like; there will be a lot of blood, and often delimbing. Sometimes it can be ridiculous, but most of the time it is handled quite well, all in all, especially considering some of the other darker, mature manga out there.

Berserk's world is portrayed quite well, all in all, compared to most 'dark' fantasies. Every villain in Berserk has a backstory, as does every single Apostle, and each one's story is often unique and interesting. That's how a dark fantasy should be portrayed; that the villains are/were each their own person with their own goals, and shows the lead up to using the Behelit during their worst moment of despair.

And truth be told, if he has weird fetishes, then George R.R. Martin seems to have weird fetishes as well, concerning the things they both portray in their respective works of art. I don't see it as a fetish because a writer creates a story that he or she wants to create; if the world is a dark place, sometimes it is silly, sometimes it isn't. There really aren't 'fetishes' so much so as things the writer wants to portray in such a way, at least concerning books, or stories.

I didn't bother clarifying that some things are handled very well, and when I (was forced to) read it, there was a lot about it I felt mature and well done, especially for a manga. But it was overshadowed by a lot of things.

You probably deserve a longer, more thoughtful reply, but, as I said, I don't wholly disagree with you. And, I'm getting off my watched-True-Blood-season-finale high (another, "wow, I could really do without the graphic sex" series), so I'm all gossipy, not serious. I disagree with the way Berserk often chooses to handle sex, rape, gore, violence, and all of that as being "mature" or what should be exemplifyed by BioWare. I understand that that's the genre he's going for, and I wouldn't change it for that reason, but it's certainly not how I would want BioWare to go.

The thing with how rape is handled is that it a) happens to this girl once every other chapter (I am reminded of Madison in Heavy Rain, who never catches a break from rape attempts and being attacked and is always forced to strip) and is fetishized. It's the genre he's going for--but I don't think it makes it inherently "mature". I brought up Wonder Woman, because I drew parallels between the way her distress was sexualized. I found it more often tasteless than not.

Also, I've unfortunately never read A Song of Ice and Fire. I keep meaning to, but I haven't. I can't comment there.

Modifié par Saibh, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Khraum wrote...

For me dark fantasy means:

No inhibitions on content

The base definition of Dark Fantasy is Horror/Fantasy. The idea that Dark Fantasy somehow means something inherently different from Fantasy is ludicrous.

And before anyone asks: no, I do not like the fact that Origins is billed as "Dark Fantasy".