171 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

Saibh wrote...

And, I'm getting off my watched-True-Blood-season-finale high (another, "wow, I could really do without the graphic sex" series), so I'm all gossipy, not serious. 

WTF was up with Sookie in the finale?

Edit: To somewhat stay on topic...

I'm going to hate the way I will likely word this sentence, but rape in literature should be used (if it is to be used at all)  to further characterization, not to shock the reader and act as a binary switch to "mature" mode in a story.

And yeah, characterization doesn't seem like the correct sentiment.  I just don't know how to say it.

Modifié par Maverick827, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Krytheos]

Maverick827 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

And, I'm getting off my watched-True-Blood-season-finale high (another, "wow, I could really do without the graphic sex" series), so I'm all gossipy, not serious. 

WTF was up with Sookie in the finale?

Edit: To somewhat stay on topic...

I'm going to hate the way I will likely word this sentence, but rape in literature should be used (if it is to be used at all)  to further characterization, not to shock the reader and act as a binary switch to "mature" mode in a story.

And yeah, characterization doesn't seem like the correct sentiment.  I just don't know how to say it.

Honestly, I think the way BioWare handled it was a good example; Vaughan especially, since it more or less characterizes him, or how it characterized the Chevaliers as a whole, as well as George R.R. Martin, and before it got ridiculous, Kentaro Miura's way of using it to characterize Griffith's betrayal.

Honestly, it can be used EFFECTIVELY to shock the reader as long as it's within the character's boundry to do so. If it isn't, then it could be used to characterize them. Otherwise, it serves no real use beyond 'lol it's dark and gritty!!!!1!!1.' which is a very bad thing.

[Kileyan]

foodstuffs wrote...

I pulled out The Witcher... and quickly remembered why I hated playing it (I have in fact beat it but it was so long ago). I've actually tried to play it from time to time, always stopping for the same reason, eventually forgetting it. I guess this is why my memories of the game have faded so much. Is there a camera fix/mod worth note? I really don't like the fact that the camera (any mode) makes me not want to play it as I really liked it, just hated playing it. I tried looking but I'm not very good at this sort of thing, also I wouldn't know what is trusted. I'd like to get some of the game played while this topic is still alive, for reference.

I never could play the game Witcher. I've owned it for years. The camera is bad, the combat is boring and repetitive clicking. I think i made it as far as getting my first reward playing card for having sex with some character, what the hell.

I did end up following a blog that talked about the game and translated the novels enough to explain the story. It sounded like a good story and I always mean to get the Engish translated novels, but I will not play that game. The old aurora engine is terrible, and the games click fest combat is just not fun. That last sentence sums it up. People I know that tried it, find the story sort of compelling, but find the combat as punishment you must endure, to get back to the story.

[foodstuffs]

Even though I find the combat tedious, it's not too much of a problem for me, it's like any other click-fest but actually requires reflexes. The camera, any mode, just simply annoys me to no end. I actually feel like I'm fighting the camera more than I'm fighting the enemies. It doesn't do what I want to it to most of the time, or if it does it feels too clunky. Hmm... I just realized that I'm referring to the controls and camera interchangeably. I appreciate the tips.

[GodWood]

Khraum wrote...

For me dark fantasy means:

No inhibitions on content: The game should be willing to explore anything (including torture, rape, incest or what some of the posts have raised) and to do so in a shocking way IF IT SUITS THE STORY. I'm not saying that it should do these thing for the sake of being sick, but that if it fits a much darker theme, the game should use it. 

Playing the game should give you strong emotions and a maybe sense of shock and personal torment, and deliberate try to push you to do certain things. Like for the city elf origins in DAO, your warden's feelings towards humans and some of the actions you want to take later in the game could have been much different if Vaugh had actually raped you.

No heroic/happy endings. All gains you make in your player's life should be followed with some loss. Finishing the game should not give you a sense of relief and being a hero, but some discomfort for the decisions you made,

Total moral ambiguity in decisions: There shouldn't be moral ambiguity in a few decisions like in DAO, but all choices should have good and bad consequences, and doing what seems good might in one instance might have a bad outcome the next.

Much darker characters, including companions. This includes some who are "really" evil and even psychologically disturbed.

This is what I want in a game, sadly [for me at least] the majority of the population does not.

[Quercus]

GodWood wrote...

Khraum wrote...

For me dark fantasy means:

No inhibitions on content: The game should be willing to explore anything (including torture, rape, incest or what some of the posts have raised) and to do so in a shocking way IF IT SUITS THE STORY. I'm not saying that it should do these thing for the sake of being sick, but that if it fits a much darker theme, the game should use it. 

Playing the game should give you strong emotions and a maybe sense of shock and personal torment, and deliberate try to push you to do certain things. Like for the city elf origins in DAO, your warden's feelings towards humans and some of the actions you want to take later in the game could have been much different if Vaugh had actually raped you.

No heroic/happy endings. All gains you make in your player's life should be followed with some loss. Finishing the game should not give you a sense of relief and being a hero, but some discomfort for the decisions you made,

Total moral ambiguity in decisions: There shouldn't be moral ambiguity in a few decisions like in DAO, but all choices should have good and bad consequences, and doing what seems good might in one instance might have a bad outcome the next.

Much darker characters, including companions. This includes some who are "really" evil and even psychologically disturbed.

This is what I want in a game, sadly [for me at least] the majority of the population does not.

Well, I don't think you should look at it in that way.

Deadspace is a sick and scary horror game, yet it sold really well (and I'm being modest here) because there are people who like that kind of thing.

Having a Dark gritty type of game is no difference, it will sell to the people who like it.

[upsettingshorts]

My definition of dark fantasy? Well, let's get right down to it. What's a game that is dark fantasy?



/one of the earliest quests is collecting molars from dozens of Vanir you kill
//another later one involves getting revenge for a woman who was raped and tortured to death
///then there's the Incubus/Succubus raid boss where they spend the whole fight talking about how you (the player) will make an excellent host for their "seed"
//oh, and one of the finishing moves is ripping your victim's head clean off

<---was Rayin/Ilsi on the Cimmeria server for a long time.  Don't play anymore.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Vandrayke]

hey good call on Conan

[zahra]

One thing I really wish they had done differently was blood magic. Everyone, from the chantry to Alistair and Wynne act like blood magic is super evil (and consequently, super badass) so when my mage finally managed to learn blood magic I was expecting some sort of revelation within the game. Or some sort of consequence that went beyond that spell where you can sacrifice your companions (who pop right back up after, and aren't the least bit annoyed that you just used their life force to fuel your powers) and pissing Wynne off. I expected something "Woah" and got a pretty meh experience after turning to the supposedly dark side.



(Also funny that Alistair doesn't notice you using it in battle.)

[Governor Tarkin]

Conan is low fantasy isn't it?

[Vandrayke]

zahra wrote...


One thing I really wish they had done differently was blood magic. Everyone, from the chantry to Alistair and Wynne act like blood magic is super evil (and consequently, super badass) so when my mage finally managed to learn blood magic I was expecting some sort of revelation within the game. Or some sort of consequence that went beyond that spell where you can sacrifice your companions (who pop right back up after, and aren't the least bit annoyed that you just used their life force to fuel your powers) and pissing Wynne off. I expected something "Woah" and got a pretty meh experience after turning to the supposedly dark side.

(Also funny that Alistair doesn't notice you using it in battle.)

I agree.  I was underwhelmed when I made my bad character and nobody cared that they were bad.  

[Dave of Canada]

It's been said a dozen times but no happily-ever-after choices.

[Vandrayke]

Governor Tarkin wrote...

Conan is low fantasy isn't it?

the game's atmosphere works as dark fantasy when compared to other games, imo

It's been a long time since I read Howard so I don't really know how to classify the Conan books.  

[Vandrayke]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It's been said a dozen times but no happily-ever-after choices.

Bittersweet > happily ever after > everyone dies

[upsettingshorts]

Well, Robert E Howard basically invented the world of Conan as a sort of pre-history history of Pangaea.  One of the primary definitions of "high fantasy" involves the setting's relationship with "the real world" and in Conan the setting is I believe, fictional pre-historical Earth, it can't really be called high fantasy... but the world it exists in isn't really real either.  Hard to label.  He wanted to write historical fiction-esque fantasy, but didn't want to get bogged down in the realities of actual history.

But the atmosphere, as Vandrayke points out - is comparatively darker than other games. Doesn't mean there are no happy or obviously good decisions, or obviously evil villains - but you never once get a sense you're playing a game in a happy place. It's quite brutal and unforgiving.

...especially on PVP enabled servers.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Dave of Canada]

Vandrayke wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

It's been said a dozen times but no happily-ever-after choices.

Bittersweet > happily ever after > everyone dies

I prefered everyone dies in ME2.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Pzykozis]

Personally I think 'dark' fantasy hasn't really been represented in game form. Perhaps if you mixed the atmosphere of say, Demon Souls, and then grabbed hold of some of the choices from The Witcher.

My definition of 'dark' fantasy is.... as much visual/atmospheric as it is actual storywise, the problem with Dragon age was that it had some elements of dark fantasy story (though the heroic additive stops it from having two hard choices, since killing someone / using someone's life to save someone else isn't heroic) the atmosphere and the visuals of the game didn't really convey the darkness.

A massive emphasis on struggle, is a must I think, no I'm not talking about survival horror games where you have to collect food with an ever dwindling supply, though that can be used but just generally it should be a struggle to do things, this is something that Demon soul's did really well, you might be powered up and ready to complete the game but if you don't think properly that guy with an axe you met at the beginning of the game is still going to kill you now like he did back then. Bleakness, despair and oppression, are core themes, But not the only themes, you can have things like redemption etc happyness it doesn't have to be despair for everyone all the time.

The problem with Dark fantasy is that it's oppressive by it's very nature, the player needs to feel this is a struggle for survival and that there isn't much chance of a bright sunny ending, you have to avoid things like 'Did you just punch out Cthulu?' and stick with political machinations and generally keep things like killing gods and archdemons out of it, as much as possible. Anyway, Oppresiveness doesn't sell, people aren't interested in becoming depressed by playing a game, so it's not really a viable market (though Demon soul's was profitable, but it wasn't a run away hit.) Things like The Witcher and Dragon age, are to borrow from a previous poster more 'realistic' fantasies, I'd say that whilst they have mature themes they don't express them in a way that I can consider dark.

For other literature versions of dark fantasy I'd say look at the first ASOIAF book, It kind of shifts to some strange immature high fantasy with dark elements after that, and Malazan Book of the Fallen is also a good example.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Rieverre]

It's been namedropped before, but Berserk, Warhammer and Witcher manage to do dark fantasy quite well. That said, it's difficult to name specific ... hmm ... ingredients, I suppose, so let me just list some bits of DA:O that I think qualify under the heading, or how certain situations could qualify if handled a bit differently:

- the Origins themselves do a very good job of starting things off on the right note. There is no 'good' outcome to a majority of the decisions you make there. Yes, it's a bit of a railroad on the path to being a Grey Warden, but it still manages to be dark fantasy all around in that there is no right choice, just survival.

- the Joining at Ostagar (in fact, I would have dearly loved for the Joining ritual in Awakening to be more random. Sure, the first candidate dies, but after that it seems like it's pretty much smooth sailing for everyone involved.) was a perfect example.

- the whole Orzammar plotline did this very well too, especially considering the relative results of putting Harrowmont and Bhalen on the throne. No 'right' answer here. And the Deep Roads bits, especially the Dead Trenches, Broodmother, and then the Paragon Of Her Kind finale ... those were dark fantasy of the finest sort and arguably my favorite parts of the whole game.

- Dalish recruitment _could_ have been dark fantasy - the only thing necessary to make it such would have been the removal of the option to heal the werewolves. No middle ground, and a necessity to choose between either supporting Zathrian in hiding his crime and shame, or the weres in their indignation and revenge on the person who damned them.

- the Connor question, again, could have been dark fantasy if it _forced_ you to use Blood Magic to net an even somewhat positive result. Going to the Circle for help wouldn't do anything as by the time you made it back Connor would have relapsed and you would have had to kill him. The only options would have been either killing Isolde and saving Connor, or killing Connor.

- Sacred Ashes was pretty much high fantasy. A possible way of making it dark fantasy would have been to have the Ashes only work for you if you sacrificed the life of a true believer for them. Meaning either the priest or one of your religious party-members. Or Morrigan is the one who gives you the option of corrupting the remaining ashes with dragon-blood to make them usable _once_ and destroy the temple and the remaining ashes as a result.

- Broken Circle ... again, somewhat dark, but could have been made better by including some mention of the First Enchanter acting ... erratically ... at times after he was rescued, making you wonder if you really did the right thing.



and so on and so forth.

[Niarviel]

A "dark" themed fantasy game should have a nice amount of horror, and i don't mean the children from awakening, i mean actual horror, play Amensia the dark descent and you will understand what i am talking about. Mix that with your character being able to do rather horrible things to people, torture, rape, ect, and SHOWING IT ON SCREEN instead of a fade to black sorta thing. Sure its difficult with how the media is but its worth it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

THe whole idea of Dark Heroic Fantasy (as Dragon Age has been described as being, not just dark) is to feel heroic despite the odds. Yes your triumph may have come at a cost but you still triumphed. If you want no happy ending wahtsoever you are looking for tragedies, not dark fantasy.

[SirShreK]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe whole idea of Dark Heroic Fantasy (as Dragon Age has been described as being, not just dark) is to feel heroic despite the odds. Yes your triumph may have come at a cost but you still triumphed. If you want no happy ending wahtsoever you are looking for tragedies, not dark fantasy.

Sensible Sir, Really!

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dark Fantasy: How adults justify enjoying a children's genre. Also, when companies add gore and violence to a story in order to help it stand out. Most "Dark" fantasy is the same as adding glass jewels and gewgaws to a plain coat to help it stand out. It's not a bad thing, it's certainly adds a little color even if it doesn't add much substance.



How much would I want to see in Dragon Age 2? About the same amount. DAO wasn't that dark, honestly. If you want real dark, watch the news, particularly African news. People are getting butchered, maimed, raped, and killed and all for no ultimate reason, all over the continent, all day long. And no one cares. Dark enough for ya?!

[Rieverre]

Operative word being _cost_. In DA:O, more often than not, you can come by and make things better without any cost as a result of your decision. Dalish? Weres are cured and frolicking, Dalish are happy, the perpetrator was punished. Redcliffe? Eamon, Connor, and Isolde are alive. Demon is gone. Yay! Other than the usual hack and slash effort, no cost to you ... well, other than maybe Jowan, but who cares about him?



I don't mean that it's supposed to be bereft or 'this time, just once, _everybody lives_' moments, but these should be few, far in-between, and difficult to achieve.

[Dave of Canada]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe whole idea of Dark Heroic Fantasy (as Dragon Age has been described as being, not just dark) is to feel heroic despite the odds. Yes your triumph may have come at a cost but you still triumphed. If you want no happy ending wahtsoever you are looking for tragedies, not dark fantasy.

Killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde is still a triumph, you just had to do a hard decision that shouldn't have had a third option. At least making the third option have consequences would've worked too, considering you're expecting the demon to be gone on vacation for the 2-4 days you're gone to the Mage Tower.