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[Collider]

What's your definition of "dark" fantasy, how much of it would you...

Choices with consequences. Tough choices. The consequences aren't split into good and bad choices. I put to Bhelen vs. Harrowmont. Harrowmont is a better person, but he's not a good leader. Etc.

[upsettingshorts]

Nitpicking:

Bhelan: Ambitious and amoral liberal.
Harrowmont: Loyal and moral conservative.

But yeah, it's not a "good v. evil" choice. And that makes it one of the better ones in the game, and there's no easy third way like the Werewolves.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[Collider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nitpicking:

Bhelan: Ambitious and amoral liberal.
Harrowmont: Loyal and moral conservative.

But yeah, it's not a "good v. evil" choice. And that makes it one of the better ones in the game, and there's no easy third way like the Werewolves.

Precisely what I mean. Either way, there's some kind of moral problem with choosing Bhelen or Harrowmont.
Choosing Bhelen means the warden is giving the throne to a ruthless dictator.
Choosing Harrowmont means the warden is giving the throne to someone who wants to continue the oppressive caste system.

And while Harrowmont is (probably) a better person than Bhelen, he's not a good king.

[sw33t nothings]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe whole idea of Dark Heroic Fantasy (as Dragon Age has been described as being, not just dark) is to feel heroic despite the odds. Yes your triumph may have come at a cost but you still triumphed. If you want no happy ending wahtsoever you are looking for tragedies, not dark fantasy.

Killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde is still a triumph, you just had to do a hard decision that shouldn't have had a third option. At least making the third option have consequences would've worked too, considering you're expecting the demon to be gone on vacation for the 2-4 days you're gone to the Mage Tower.

This. I actually sacrificed Isolde the first time around because I was convinced the game was tricking me, and if I went to the circle of Magi that I would come back to a slaughter house. Wasn't until next time around that I realized that you could totally get away with it. 

I still find that DA:O is a 'dark' fantasy (just not at an extreme end of dark). By my definition anyways, and if you're curious why, I have my earlier post explaining. But as a general rule I really don't put much stock in sub genres like 'high', 'dark', 'low', 'realistic' because it's just some buzzword an advertising exec came up with to sell the product to more people.  

[Dasher10]

How about armies that resist being conquered are completely depopulated once overpowered... except for the children who are enslaved. It happened all the time. Also, making sure that the heroes are just as bad as the villains, having a feudal class system that you can never break out of, etc. That's "dark" to me.

[Gabey5]

dao dealt with dark themes

slavery
torture
murde
rape

and over course stabbing up kids
etc

Modifié par Gabey5, 14 septembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Maverick827]

Eh, I would actually say that Origins used slavery pretty poorly. While it did not condone it by any means, you only really use it as a tool to further your plans against Loghain. The same could be said about torture, and murder isn't "dark" anymore.

I actually don't think Origins had the cinematic strength to pull of any really great, "dark" themes. Everything is just so rigid and told from the same behind-the-shoulder perspective. When you speak the a rapist or murderer, the ambiance, lightning, and perspective should not be the exact same as when talking to a hapless elf about his girl problems.

[Collider]

*lightning strikes*

*wolf howls*

[Chuvvy]

If it's going to be dark. Make it dark. The previous two titles they put out that claimed to be "dark" weren't. (ME2, DAO)

[gotthammer]

Pzykozis wrote...

Personally I think 'dark' fantasy hasn't really been represented in game form. Perhaps if you mixed the atmosphere of say, Demon Souls, and then grabbed hold of some of the choices from The Witcher.

My definition of 'dark' fantasy is.... as much visual/atmospheric as it is actual storywise, the problem with Dragon age was that it had some elements of dark fantasy story (though the heroic additive stops it from having two hard choices, since killing someone / using someone's life to save someone else isn't heroic) the atmosphere and the visuals of the game didn't really convey the darkness.

A massive emphasis on struggle, is a must I think, no I'm not talking about survival horror games where you have to collect food with an ever dwindling supply, though that can be used but just generally it should be a struggle to do things, this is something that Demon soul's did really well, you might be powered up and ready to complete the game but if you don't think properly that guy with an axe you met at the beginning of the game is still going to kill you now like he did back then. Bleakness, despair and oppression, are core themes, But not the only themes, you can have things like redemption etc happyness it doesn't have to be despair for everyone all the time.

The problem with Dark fantasy is that it's oppressive by it's very nature, the player needs to feel this is a struggle for survival and that there isn't much chance of a bright sunny ending, you have to avoid things like 'Did you just punch out Cthulu?' and stick with political machinations and generally keep things like killing gods and archdemons out of it, as much as possible. Anyway, Oppresiveness doesn't sell, people aren't interested in becoming depressed by playing a game, so it's not really a viable market (though Demon soul's was profitable, but it wasn't a run away hit.) Things like The Witcher and Dragon age, are to borrow from a previous poster more 'realistic' fantasies, I'd say that whilst they have mature themes they don't express them in a way that I can consider dark.

For other literature versions of dark fantasy I'd say look at the first ASOIAF book, It kind of shifts to some strange immature high fantasy with dark elements after that, and Malazan Book of the Fallen is also a good example.

Gotta agree w/ just about everything in this post (particularly the bits in bold), at least as far as trying to convey the notion of what 'dark fantasy' is.

As for the 'depressing' aspect, I guess that's why DA is not 'pure' 'dark fantasy', and is 'heroic dark fantasy' instead? 

Slidell505 wrote...

If it's going to be dark. Make it dark. The previous two titles they put out that claimed to be "dark" weren't. (ME2, DAO)

DA:O had pretty 'dark' themes...but it just doesn't, IMHO, do a good job in portraying them visually (particularly in terms of 'atmosphere'). Which is kinda bad, considering that video games are an interactive 'visual' medium, yes? 
ME2, IMHO, did well visually, including atmosphere, and had consistently 'dark' themes. If I had any complaints it's that I felt that the execution of the story/plot was lacking, if memory serves... (haven't played it in a while...wrapping up my last ME1 playthrough to play ME2 again  ) 

Modifié par gotthammer, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

filaminstrel wrote...

And I maintain that the Connor third option is reasonable.

But it should've come with consequences itself, instead of yielding an ending where everybody walks into the sunset with smiles on their faces. Either Teagan died due to trying to stop the repossesed Connor or something. Yet, you're gone for 3-4 days and the Demon hasn't done anything and Isolde / Teagan are just chilling. 

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

And I maintain that the Connor third option is reasonable.

But it should've come with consequences itself, instead of yielding an ending where everybody walks into the sunset with smiles on their faces. Either Teagan died due to trying to stop the repossesed Connor or something. Yet, you're gone for 3-4 days and the Demon hasn't done anything and Isolde / Teagan are just chilling. 

Or you're gone for the whole damn game.

[GreenSoda]

Gabey5 wrote...

dao dealt with dark themes

slavery
torture
murde
rape

and over course stabbing up kids
etc

It did (so did ME2). I just think BW's approach to all those difficult themes is somewhat..."Disney" (Gruesome things might happen but are rarely shown. The PC can *always* produce the best outcome for everyone at no personal cost)

I really think both games would have been better with harsher consequences. Victories gained at great cost. Not with a "get out of jail" freecard like with the whole Connor/circle of magic questline.

Modifié par GreenSoda, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Chuvvy]

Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

And I maintain that the Connor third option is reasonable.

But it should've come with consequences itself, instead of yielding an ending where everybody walks into the sunset with smiles on their faces. Either Teagan died due to trying to stop the repossesed Connor or something. Yet, you're gone for 3-4 days and the Demon hasn't done anything and Isolde / Teagan are just chilling. 

Or you're gone for the whole damn game.

Yeah, I do the tower last. I'm gone for months. Well I do it first then Redclife then Dalish Elves then orzammar then I go get the mages then I do the ritual.

Modifié par Slidell505, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:15 .

[ErichHartmann]

GreenSoda wrote...

It did (so did ME2). I just think BW's approach to all those difficult themes is somewhat..."Disney" (Gruesome things might happen but are rarely shown. The PC can *always* produce the best outcome for everyone at no personal cost)

I have disagree.  DAO is a very brutal game.  Certain things don't need to be shown onscreen like killing Connor or rape.  Offscreen or fade to black is appropriate sometimes.  Implied scenes of extraoridinary violence are more effective than actually showing it and some lines should not be crossed.

As for happy outcomes, you weren't forced into them.                

[Maverick827]

I agree the situation would have been better without that third option, but I could also just as easily thinking to myself, if it had not existed, "man, the mage tower isn't that far away. Realistically I could probably jump on over there to see if they could help, but whatever."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Some of the Darkest fantasy I know of is Warhammer Fantasy. That is a quite grim setting if I ever saw one. A hopeless fight for the forces of good, but not without its moment of heroism either (and at the end of the day the good guys always win).

[GreenSoda]

ErichHartmann wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

It did (so did ME2). I just think BW's approach to all those difficult themes is somewhat..."Disney" (Gruesome things might happen but are rarely shown. The PC can *always* produce the best outcome for everyone at no personal cost)

I have disagree.  DAO is a very brutal game.  Certain things don't need to be shown onscreen like killing Connor or rape.  Offscreen or fade to black is appropriate sometimes.  Implied scenes of extraoridinary violence are more effective than actually showing it and some lines should not be crossed.

I actually agree. The "rarely shown" part was a more...diffuse feeling. Too much sunshine in places that wanted to be seen as dark&gruesome (Omega in ME2 for example. It was supposed to be the darkest pit of villainy in the galaxy. Cut throat -still it felt like just another field trip for my Shephard)

As for happy outcomes, you weren't forced into them.                

If there is the chance for an all out positive outcome at *zero* cost, picking the less favorable one just for the sake of it feels...stupid and self mutilating.

Modifié par GreenSoda, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[foodstuffs]

ErichHartmann wrote...
I have disagree.  DAO is a very brutal game.  Certain things don't need to be shown onscreen like killing Connor or rape.  Offscreen or fade to black is appropriate sometimes.  Implied scenes of extraoridinary violence are more effective than actually showing it and some lines should not be crossed.

I was gonna write a big long thing about this, but I instead will settle for: 

QFT

EDIT:  In regards to the Connor situation.  I felt the "go to the mages" choice should have been left out entirely.  I actually feel the best choice is to kill Connor.  One, it would make Isolde think very carefuly about her actions, thus humiliating (humbling?) her even more.  Two, this would grant Isolde and Eammon a chance to have another child and this time do it right.  Three, "cured" abominations are "never the same" (I think Wynne says that) after being "cured," so theoretically not worth that risk. Granted things can still always go wrong.  Were I in that situation and the choice were up to me, if I made that choice, it would be something to haunt me for the rest of my life but I believe it would be the best choice.  I think, all in all, THAT is dark.

Modifié par foodstuffs, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[maxernst]

I think DA:O was sufficiently dark. The origin stories had rape, murder of children, fratricide--really, the mage origin was the only one that wasn't extremely traumatic and even it had tough choices. Later in the game, there's the joining, Hespeth, Rukh. All the societies portrayed in the game are unjust to some degree.



Yes, there are certain choices that could have been made more difficult. Of the big decisions in the game, I would say the werewolf decision has a clear win-win decision and so does Redcliffe (though only if you metagame). There's no really compelling reason to side with Kolgrim either. But Caridin/Branka, Bhelen/Harrowmont, and Loghain are more complex. And I think for any player who is trying to RP a human PC seriously, the DR is hardly a no-brainer. You've been told all your life that the old gods were evil and tyrannized the old Imperium. Unless you're completely selfish, the decision to bring one into the world to save your life or Alistair/Loghain's life shouldn't be viewed as easy.