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[Anacronian Stryx]

Well that's assuming that particle beams are even more powerful than advanced mass accelerator weaponry like the Thanix - which they don't seem to be.

[hitorihanzo]

Zan Mura wrote...

I still stand behind the idea that BW's plots are typically fundamentally very simple. They're just written well enough and carried out in a highly polished, professional manner often making people believe them to be more complex than what they really are.

Currently knowing that the Reapers were behind the Collectors, the Rachni attacks, and how some of the characters hint at the little things like Mordin with his cultural and artistic death, the human genetic variation and all the testing that's done based on it... the simplest conclusion would be that the whole galaxy is nothing but a lab and our progress throughout those 50k years is nothing but a maze. After every 50k years the old batch of rats is exterminated and new ones are put in based on what was learned from the last ones. The goal is nothing more than to see what the heck happens, when will they pass the maze... or when will they develop something new altogether to grant a culturally dead race of superbeings something new worth their infinite time.

It's like a child's little chemistry lab where you just throw in stuff and let it react, over and over and over until something cool comes out. Last time, the Protheans were cool, but apparently not cool enough. So they were used for whatever they were worth, but like the Krogan rejects, they were not perfect. Humans however seem to be, and especially because they have produced the singular entity known as Shepard, who obviously defies everything.

While I don't believe this is the case, I will admit that if it turned out that Reapers had a hand in Cerberus' ability to resurrect Sheps in the first place, I wouldn't be all that surprised. That's a far-fetched thing though, so I'm just putting it out there.

What's really gonna get interesting is how in the heck we're supposed to stop the Reapers in ME3. I hope they won't just suddenly claim that we can take on a race of beings at least hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of years ahead of us in technological advancement in an open battle.

...

In fact, that opens up another continuation of that theory. Maybe Reapers really don't have technology millions of years ahead of us after all.

Maybe the only reason the Reapers do what they do, is because they really are dead. They have no creativity, no real ability to develop and learn beyond what they already know. In reality, they are nothing but parasites waiting away for new organics to come, only to swoop in and steal their technology and knowledge before they become a danger. This is their only means of evolving. While that would certainly make them old, it would only give them power comparable to the combined knowledge of all the past civilizations. Which considering their own need to force the progress of these races down a certain predictable path in order to leave them open for an easy attack, may not be that great at all.

It would certainly explain why Sovereign wasn't blatantly obviously advanced beyond anything the Geth could fathom in a million years, according to the Council.

In this case, humans would represent the occasional leap of evolution that swooshes right past anything the Reapers could have predicted, completely catching them by surprise. So perhaps given that random variation and the extra time bought by the incident with the Mu relay and knowledge of the Reapers, we actually CAN fight them, provided we get a few extra cards up our sleeves.

The second part of your theory is ingenius.  I think your spot on with that theory. 

[HazelrahFiver]

Zan Mura wrote...
In fact, that opens up another continuation of that theory. Maybe Reapers really don't have technology millions of years ahead of us after all.

I've had a theory similar to this.  There is a chance (and not that small of one) that Sovereign and Harbinger are completely full of crap.  As in, they are lying about many, many things.  All the preaching they've done about being a superior race that is beyond understanding, blah, blah, may a put-on for show.  They instill fear and have a plan set in motion to destroy organics before it is too late.  Perhaps they are terrified of organics, of what they can do, of how they can advance, and are determined to wipe them out every time so that they, the Reapers, do not become overshadowed in due time.  The Reapers may even be fully aware that humanity is a stark example of a greater existence over machines, and Shepard especially terrifies them with his/her ability to kill a Reaper and conquer the Collectors.

Obviously there is a lot of 'could bes' and 'what ifs' in that ramble, and a lot of it would make the conclusion of ME3 boring, but most of it is fun to think about.  I mean, maybe they were so intent on making a human-Reaper because they wanted to created something that could truly combat humanity?

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Well that's assuming that
particle beams are even more powerful than advanced mass accelerator
weaponry like the Thanix - which they don't seem to be.

Ooo, I agree, and this fits into my theory as well!  ;P

Modifié par HazelrahFiver, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Zan Mura]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

I've had a theory similar to this.  There is a chance (and not that small of one) that Sovereign and Harbinger are completely full of crap.  As in, they are lying about many, many things.  All the preaching they've done about being a superior race that is beyond understanding, blah, blah, may a put-on for show.  They instill fear and have a plan set in motion to destroy organics before it is too late.  Perhaps they are terrified of organics, of what they can do, of how they can advance, and are determined to wipe them out every time so that they, the Reapers, do not become overshadowed in due time.  The Reapers may even be fully aware that humanity is a stark example of a greater existence over machines, and Shepard especially terrifies them with his/her ability to kill a Reaper and conquer the Collectors.

Seems unlikely they would be lying. From their point of view, they are telling things exactly as they see them. They deem themselves superior, above us. And I hardly believe they feel any form of fear or terror over the humans or Shepard. Those are organic symptoms. A machine / software would have a far more practical outlook on events and "life" - if you will.

They do what they do because it's what they are. Whether their reasons are programmed or self-discovered, is really irrelevant. To them humanity and Shepard are nothing more than an obstacle, a glitch of an anomaly they have to get rid of in order to restart the cycle for an eternity. Preferably in a fashion that allows them to learn from us to develop themselves and prepare for the same in the future.

But really, these theories come and go. For now I actually think the whole parasite theory seems sound, reasonably believable, while giving a way out for us to actually win them in a believable manner. And yet simple enough to work. But well, we'll see how it turns out.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

People who say the reapers don't seem all that advanced should also keep in mind that until you killed Sovereign in Sarens body nothing could touch Sovereign..hell the bastard flew right through a Turian Cruiser without taking any kind of damage at all - we have yet to see what the Reapers are really capable of.

[0mar]

Zan51 wrote...

I want to know how, if the galaxy has been populated over and over and wiped every 50,000 years when they are all at a space faring and resource hunting level, Shepard can still go surveying planets and get so many resources from all over. It should all be used up by now!

The Galaxy is a big place.  By every account, the denizens of the Milky Way have explored less than 1% of it, despite the prevalance of mass relays and such.  I bet even the Protheans didn't explore more than 10% of the galaxy.

[Zan Mura]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

People who say the reapers don't seem all that advanced should also keep in mind that until you killed Sovereign in Sarens body nothing could touch Sovereign..hell the bastard flew right through a Turian Cruiser without taking any kind of damage at all - we have yet to see what the Reapers are really capable of.

I honestly never once got to thinking that I killed Sovereign in Saren's body, or that it would have any possible connection to Sovereign's own fall. And trying real hard now, I can't see why I ever should have. In my opinion it seems not only incredibly far fetched that those two would have a connection - it is after all the norm in any movie or game to time the turnaround of the battle to the exact same moment in all fields to add to the dramatic impact -, but the statement itself is contradictory. I mean, if Sovereign's ship body fell because of some redundant bug in the system that made him crash when his remote controlled tool that took probably something like 0.00000001% of his total capacity to control was killed by Shepard, then obviously they are NOT advanced at all.

Sovereign and Saren died at the same moment because that's how it is, in any and all stories. He'd taken a beating thus far and it just so happened that the timing of the alliance & citadel fleet coincided with Shepard's timing inside the citadel.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Zan Mura wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

People who say the reapers don't seem all that advanced should also keep in mind that until you killed Sovereign in Sarens body nothing could touch Sovereign..hell the bastard flew right through a Turian Cruiser without taking any kind of damage at all - we have yet to see what the Reapers are really capable of.

I honestly never once got to thinking that I killed Sovereign in Saren's body, or that it would have any possible connection to Sovereign's own fall. And trying real hard now, I can't see why I ever should have.

In my opinion it seems not only incredibly far fetched that those two would have a connection - it is after all the norm in any movie or game to time the turnaround of the battle to the exact same moment in all fields to add to the dramatic impact -, but the statement itself is contradictory. I mean, if Sovereign's ship body fell because of some redundant bug in the system that made him crash when his remote controlled tool that took probably something like 0.00000001% of his total capacity to control was killed by Shepard, then obviously they are NOT advanced at all.

Sovereign and Saren died at the same moment because that's how it is, in any and all stories. He'd taken a beating thus far and it just so happened that the timing of the alliance & citadel fleet coincided with Shepard's timing inside the citadel.

Saren's body lies dead, Red energy flashes and Saren rises uttering the words " I am Sovereign"..

Shep kills the Saren/sovereign thing - cut to the outside : suddenly the once unassaible Reaper stops picking of ships and just stops - nobody is shooting at it - the lights flashes of sovereigns body and he starts to fall - Jokers voice "the shields are down now's our chance" - The fleet and Normandy makes short work of the falling and lifeless Sovereign.



Until Shep killed Saren/Sovereign the fleet did no damage at all to Sovereign - perhaps the strain of reanimating Saren's copse and then get killed was enough to strain Sovereigns resources to the breaking point but then again perhaps Shep truly killed Sovereign and the falling hulk is already dead as dead can be.

Perhaps the Reapers are really wounderable if a form they "posses" dies, Perhaps this is why Harbinger used a organic intermediary (collector general) in ME2.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 22 septembre 2010 - 07:18 .

[Eurhetemec]

Sovereign and Saren died at the same moment because that's how it is, in any and all stories. He'd taken a beating thus far and it just so happened that the timing of the alliance & citadel fleet coincided with Shepard's timing inside the citadel.

This is definitely not what we are meant to think, and requires you to basically ignore the cutscene and everything that's going on.

Presumably, the reason Sovereign is screwed is that the special kind of link it takes to directly control a being is so extreme that it has the possibility of feedback. It's certainly some kind of extreme hyper-tech, capable of operating over hundreds of light-years. Just look at Harbinger and the Collector-General. The Collector-General is being directly controlled by Harbinger, who is presumably using him as a "buffer" to control the less Collectors. Harbinger, when he realizes that the station is going to blow, is careful to disconnect from the Collector-General *before* the Collector-General dies - presumably to avoid this feedback.

So I don't think it means they're un-advanced, I think it means the direct control technology is inherently extremely risky to use.

[HazelrahFiver]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Perhaps the Reapers are really wounderable if a form they "posses" dies, Perhaps this is why Harbinger used a organic intermediary (collector general) in ME2.

Also why he seemed to abandon him directly before he died.  The general suddenly seems to gain awareness right before he is exterminated in the explosion, and that is a great theory as to why.  Perhaps, going with a theory I mentioned elsewhere about a betrayel, the decision will come to killing a Reaper by killing a possessed friend... or maybe all of them!  nah..

Edit: Just realized the poster above said just about the same thing.  Sorry about that, but the second part of my post remains unique-ish.

Modifié par HazelrahFiver, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:26 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Perhaps the Reapers are really wounderable if a form they "posses" dies, Perhaps this is why Harbinger used a organic intermediary (collector general) in ME2.

Also why he seemed to abandon him directly before he died.  The general suddenly seems to gain awareness right before he is exterminated in the explosion, and that is a great theory as to why.  Perhaps, going with a theory I mentioned elsewhere about a betrayel, the decision will come to killing a Reaper by killing a possessed friend... or maybe all of them!  nah..

Edit: Just realized the poster above said just about the same thing.  Sorry about that, but the second part of my post remains unique-ish.

Yeah well if you ask me why Bioware gave the reapers this which i presume is a weakness then it's probably something to do about getting "possessed" by a Reaper in ME3 and then sacrifice yourself in some spectacular and very heroic way to save the galaxy..

[008Zulu]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Well that's assuming that particle beams are even more powerful than advanced mass accelerator weaponry like the Thanix - which they don't seem to be.

The Thanix is just a souped up Mass Accelerator weapon, kinetic barriers would still offer protction against them. Considering the Reapers would have more powerful versions of Dreadnought shields as evidence of Sovereign, it would still take multiple hits to bring down the barriers. Particle beams would bypass kinetic barriers.

[Zan Mura]

Hmm. Well I've never been one to stubbornly refuse to admit when I might be wrong. And to be honest, this might very well be such a case. I hadn't even considered the whole thing in ME1 because it just made no sense. But in light of what happened in ME2, just as Eurhetemec said, I'd be pretty stupid not to admit that you guys have a point. It still doesn't make sense for such technology to have such a flaw, but since when was a certain amount of suspension of disbelief not mandatory?

That would certainly change things. For one, Reapers would be far more powerful than what Sovereign appeared to be, since that means the fleet probably never did even nearly enough damage to take him down. And for two's, that absolutely WILL play a part in how the war is won in ME3.

Interesting indeed.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Zan Mura wrote...

Hmm. Well I've never been one to stubbornly refuse to admit when I might be wrong. And to be honest, this might very well be such a case. I hadn't even considered the whole thing in ME1 because it just made no sense. But in light of what happened in ME2, just as Eurhetemec said, I'd be pretty stupid not to admit that you guys have a point. It still doesn't make sense for such technology to have such a flaw, but since when was a certain amount of suspension of disbelief not mandatory?

That would certainly change things. For one, Reapers would be far more powerful than what Sovereign appeared to be, since that means the fleet probably never did even nearly enough damage to take him down. And for two's, that absolutely WILL play a part in how the war is won in ME3.

Interesting indeed.

Actually thinking about it the derelict Reaper in ME2 further confirms this, The shell remains but the "host" is dead - perhaps something similar to Soverigns fate happend to that Reaper 37 mio years ago.

A dead god who still dreams.. might be more that just a clever reference to the Cthulhu mythos.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[vehzeel]

Heh, when reading the theory of Reapers not being able to evolve new tech, I think of Vampire (the rpg). The vampires there "freeze" in the time they are embraced and tend to lose their creativity/spark. They can't create new things, merely mimic the living.