16775 réponses à ce sujet

[Eldareus]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...

Also, as has been pointed out by others, it's really questionable how much the Geth want the Quarians dead. The Quarians have been decimated, and only a handful remained on the small Migrant Fleet, keeping themselves alive, barely, with backwater technology. The Geth can't possibly consider them a real threat any more.

I think the Geth would consider them a threat as soon as the migrant fleet made appreance in Geth space. The Quarians are just lucky the Geth are not genocidal.

[Savakka1]

mrsph wrote...

"If my people want to throw themselves into a suicidal war with the geth then it is fine by me, I am only saving them from the Reapers"

She says something to that effect if you get her exiled and her opinion on the war.

When you say it that way, I'm starting to see very clearly that if Tali gets exiled in ME2, and she survives ME2 and ME3, she will be exonorated in ME3. I don't actually see any other way.

[Volrath937]

mrsph wrote...

"If my people want to throw themselves into a suicidal war with the geth then it is fine by me, I am only saving them from the Reapers"

She says something to that effect if you get her exiled and her opinion on the war.

Gotcha, she recognizes the quarians can't win a war with the geth. But she has no qualms (I've dying to use "qualm" since that Hey Arnold! episode) with a non-violent shutdown does she? Nothing I can remember from her loyalty mission stood out as her explicitly opposing the idea.

[triplettt]

I think trying to stop a war between the quarians and the geth could be a major part of ME3. If you stop the war you gain 2 allies in the fight against the reapers instead of just one that is weak from a war.

[Kikaimegami]

Shandepared wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...

Yeah, talk about not learning from your mistakes. Tali is smart enough to realize that anything dealing with trying to "reclaim" the geth, is going to end up very, very poorly for her people. Hell, if you rewrite the Heretics and then ask Legion about it afterward, you find out that the virus wasn't 100% effective.

I'm curious, did you rewrite the heretics or did you blow them up? Which option do you support I mean. I'm looking for consistency.

Tali I think is just being emotional. She wants the homeworld back, but she has no plans for how to do it. Well, Xen has a plan, a very good one too. A conventional war will be too destructive but Xen's strategy will be clean and efficient.

Tali either needs to accept settling on a colony or get behind her.

Blow them up. Like I already said a couple posts ago.

Do you seriously, honestly believe if a Reaper-created (or backed, or whatever) virus wasn't 100% effective, that anything Daro'Xen comes up with will be? Even if it was only the hardware that was Reaper-provided for a virus, then something geth created wasn't 100% effective. It's like asking for a rifle up the ass... without the sweet-talk.

[Eldareus]

Kikaimegami wrote...


Do you seriously, honestly believe if a Reaper-created (or backed, or whatever) virus wasn't 100% effective, that anything Daro'Xen comes up with will be? Even if it was only the hardware that was Reaper-provided for a virus, then something geth created wasn't 100% effective. It's like asking for a rifle up the ass... without the sweet-talk.

So basically will ME3 present the player with several choices. One choice is to broker a peace between the Geth and Quarians. Another choice is to choose Tali's side and wage a war against the Geth to secure the homeworld for the Quarians,.  The last  choice is to choose Legion's side and hinder or destory the Quarian migrant fleet.

Modifié par Eldareus, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Kikaimegami]

Eldareus wrote...

So basically will ME3 present the player with several choices. One choice is to broker a peace between the Geth and Quarians. Another choice is to choose Tali's side and wage a war against the Geth to secure the homeworld for the Quarians,.  The last  choice is to choose Legion's side and hinder or destory the Quarian migrant fleet.

Already mentioned it in the past, but I'd totally support an entire friggin game based on making peace between the quarians and the geth. I could play like 200 hours of that.

[Someone With Mass]

mrsph wrote...

Think of it this way. Xen's plan works for a while but then the geth regain their sentience and break free again.

Only this time they conclude organics can never be trusted and go on a genocidal rampage across the galaxy.

Which is a good reason why Tali is probably against it.

Or mayber the Reapers takes advantage of the situation and convinces every single geth to join their cause.
Another reason for Tali to not trust her.

[Volrath937]

mrsph wrote...

Think of it this way. Xen's plan works for a while but then the geth regain their sentience and break free again.

Only this time they conclude organics can never be trusted and go on a genocidal rampage across the galaxy.

Which is a good reason why Tali is probably against it.

That's entirely dependent on what Xen's plan is. "Taking control" is very vague, it could mean anything. Well, they already tried a genocidal rampage and it didn't turn out too well even with a Reaper helping. If Xen's plan involved shutting down their networking abilities, then there goes geth intelligence. If the runtimes cannot communicate, then there's no way they could find  a way to break free. 

We don't know the specifics of the plan, but the way it's phrased makes sense as to why Tali would be against it. But we're being set up for the "Peace" ending anyway, so Tali will run with it regardless. 

[Iwakura-Lain]

mrsph wrote...

Think of it this way. Xen's plan works for a while but then the geth regain their sentience and break free again. Only this time they conclude organics can never be trusted and go on a genocidal rampage across the galaxy. Which is a good reason why Tali is probably against it.

Completely agree. 'Control' is the illusion. It was a masterful work of muck-up the first time, and will invariably lead to utter failure the second time. And then, indeed, they'll come after you with a vengeance. And if the Reapers get wind of this, they'll send a virus of their own to counter the feeble Quarian attempts at mastery. Or the Geth AI will mutate all by itself. Either way, you'll lose control, sooner rather than later.

[Kikaimegami]

Volrath937 wrote...

If Xen's plan involved shutting down their networking abilities, then there goes geth intelligence. If the runtimes cannot communicate, then there's no way they could find  a way to break free.

That also destroys their usefulness entirely. The reason why they can network is to become more effective and capable of doing more complicated tasks. A single geth runtime is pretty useless, so I seriously doubt that would be in the plan.

[Eldareus]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Think of it this way. Xen's plan works for a while but then the geth regain their sentience and break free again. Only this time they conclude organics can never be trusted and go on a genocidal rampage across the galaxy. Which is a good reason why Tali is probably against it.

Completely agree. 'Control' is the illusion. It was a masterful work of muck-up the first time, and will invariably lead to utter failure the second time. And then, indeed, they'll come after you with a vengeance. And if the Reapers get wind of this, they'll send a virus of their own to counter the feeble Quarian attempts at mastery. Or the Geth AI will mutate all by itself. Either way, you'll lose control, sooner rather than later.

Yup, that's right the only happy ending for the Quarian race is if they make peace with the Geth. Any thoughts of war or control will only end badly for them

[Volrath937]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Volrath937 wrote...

If Xen's plan involved shutting down their networking abilities, then there goes geth intelligence. If the runtimes cannot communicate, then there's no way they could find  a way to break free.

That also destroys their usefulness entirely. The reason why they can network is to become more effective and capable of doing more complicated tasks. A single geth runtime is pretty useless, so I seriously doubt that would be in the plan.

That hinges on to what extent she plans to use them to. Being a meat (metal) shield against the Reapers doesn't require intelligence. Of course that's my own feeling on how the geth should be used, once the Reapers are gone they should be shut down permanently, Xen clearly doesn't share that sentiment. 

I'm fairly sure Tali would prefer the former to the latter too.

[Kikaimegami]

I'm just amazed at how so many Tali fans can condone genocide so casually.

[Kikaimegami]

Shandepared wrote...


They're more similar to geth fans than they'd like to admit.

If the geth had wanted to wipe out the quarians, they'd have done it. They chased them out and didn't pursue.

[Someone With Mass]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Shandepared wrote...


They're more similar to geth fans than they'd like to admit.

If the geth had wanted to wipe out the quarians, they'd have done it. They chased them out and didn't pursue.

Subdue and suppress.

[Kikaimegami]

phonypapercut wrote...

Easier when they have the wrong idea of what sentience is.

Not just that, but for some, it seems to be a case of "the geth destroyed the quarians so they totally deserve it," forgetting the fact that the quarians shot first and also that the geth didn't even want to wipe them out in the first place. This seems like good of a time as any to post a chatlog of a conversation I had with Rune about this issue a while back that helps demonstrate exactly what I mean.


Kikaimegami: I just think the way most quarians want to go about getting their home back is the wrong decision
Rune: I would feel the same way if my computer kicked me out of my house after I tried to turn it off when it started talking back to me.
Kikaimegami: the migrant fleet would never NEVER survive any kind of battle with the geth, like Kal mentions.. they're just going to end up dying in the skies over their worlds
Kikaimegami: if it was via your own action your computer gained sentience, then I can't agree with you, and the geth only fought back when the quarians tried to destroy them, they didn't initiate the conflict
Kikaimegami: if I accidentally created sentient life and it started asking me if it had a soul, by first thought wouldn't be to pull the plug
Kikaimegami: s/by/my
Rune: At the time they weren't even true AI. Just VI's networked together [mistake #1] that gained intelligence by joining perspectives [mistake #2]. And I wouldn't go around chopping off their flashlights either, but I would damn sure do something.
Kikaimegami: the quarians overreacted out of fear, the geth overreacted out of inexperience, neither side was right, but war isn't the answer, war is what got everyone into this mess to begin with
Rune: agreed
Kikaimegami isn't saying that the way the geth acted is the right answer, but I can sympathize with why they did it
Kikaimegami: when I was a child, I was constantly bullied and mistreated, when I had enough I acted out in anger with violence
Kikaimegami: the geth were at the dawn of their intelligence, of their sentience, they were children
Kikaimegami: hell in a lot lof ways, they still are children
Rune: yes
Kikaimegami: they need to learn that an isolationist view isn't going to work in the long term, and I'm hoping that Shepard can help them learn that, I think making peace with the quarians is a necessary first step
Kikaimegami: it wont be easy for them and it wont be easy for the quarians, but everyone needs to admit that they were wrong and try to make it right
Rune: It's going to be difficult for the quarians knowing that the geth that murdered innocent children and bystanders are the same platforms that want peace with them.
Kikaimegami: but they need to realize and understand that the geth that killed innocents were in essence innocent and childlike themselves.. just because they had access to vast amounts of data, of information, doesn't help them understand morality, they didn't even understand their own existence, how could they have been expected to understand the concepts of innocent, of rules of engagement, when they didn't even understand their own lives?
Kikaimegami: that's a big mistake everyone seems to make with the argument that they killed indiscriminantly
Kikaimegami: if a toddler was capable of killing people, they'd do the same thing
Kikaimegami: a wild animal will do whatever it can to survive, that's all that matters is survival
Kikaimegami: so will a child
Kikaimegami: I can't remember, do you have Zaeed?
Rune: yes
Kikaimegami: (this is relevant I swear)
Kikaimegami: okay, do you remember his story about the little girl?
Rune: yes
Kikaimegami: she killed everyone on the ship she had been imprisoned on, what if, let's say, the pilot and medical officers weren't slavers.. they were just hired to work there, they were innocent, their only crime was association, but she killed them too, because she was fighting for her life, and so were they, they fought back or ran away, and she had a gun, so she shot them because she was scared and didn't understand, she just wanted to survive
Kikaimegami: would you hold her responsible for their deaths and comdenm her?
Rune: no..
Kikaimegami: yet you would hold the geth responsable for the deaths of innocents and condemn them when all they were doing was fighting to survive?
Rune: After the quarians were in retreat and they were still attacking, yes.
Kikaimegami: and it's very unlikely that a geth walked into a preschool or something and gunned down little kids, what's more likely is innocents of that nature were all collateral damage.. you bomb a place, you're going to kill everything there
Rune: yes
Kikaimegami: yes, but they let them go, they pulled back, they could have very easily continued after them and ekuna would have never happened because there wouldn't have been any quarians left
Kikaimegami: as soon as they left the viel, the geth broke off contact
Kikaimegami: veil*
Rune: they could have stopped sooner.
Kikaimegami: but they didn't realize that, they didn't know what their creators were really planning, what if the quarians were going to regroup and come back after them? once they left the veil, the geth realized going after them wasn't necessary anymore and that they were finally safe
Kikaimegami: just like the little girl shooting the people running away from her, what if they were going to go grab a gun? she didn't know, if they made it to an escape pod and got away from her, then they would be alive, but as long as they were in her sight, she did what she believed she had to do to protect herself