16775 réponses à ce sujet

[Volrath937]

Kikaimegami: I understand that you really like the geth, and I'd be happy to debate this with you, but this isn't the right place for it.



Tali's going to be okay with the peace outcome, there's no way they'd make her freak out about it.

[Kikaimegami]

Shandepared wrote...

So it was just manslaughter on a huge scale. I wonder Tali would react to be told that.

So if a child killed an adult for trying to kill them, you'd kill the child.

Got it.

[Kikaimegami]

Volrath937 wrote...

Kikaimegami: I understand that you really like the geth, and I'd be happy to debate this with you, but this isn't the right place for it.

Tali's going to be okay with the peace outcome, there's no way they'd make her freak out about it.

I'm just trying to show a differening viewpoint that is likely going to be very important in ME3 and will be something you'll have to resolve with Tali in one way or another. Yeah, you all like Tali, but at least in the beginning of ME2, and at the end if you don't "recruit" Legion and get that entire side of the issue (well, some of the stuff that happens during her loyalty mission will be the same, so there's that), she outright condones genocide, at least in action. It's something you seriously need to think about when considering the entire character and her future.

[Volrath937]

Kikaimegami wrote...

So if a child killed an adult for trying to kill them, you'd kill the child.

Got it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

Tali can hate the geth however much she wants. But I'm not committing genocide to give her that Homeworld and if she doesn't like it she be left behind in the dust.

Do the paragon path then! It's going to be a happy outcome if it all works out most likely.

Modifié par Volrath937, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Pacifien]

Okay, here's something I want you to consider: Tali fans condone genocide so casually. / They're more similar to geth fans than they'd like to admit.

You have just said someone who is a fan of Tali condones genocide. You have just compared them to a fanbase of another faction. Neither one of these statements is about Tali. Both of them are comments on real life individuals. Neither of them is acceptable.

Modifié par Pacifien, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[nickFury]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Shandepared wrote...


They're more similar to geth fans than they'd like to admit.

If the geth had wanted to wipe out the quarians, they'd have done it. They chased them out and didn't pursue.

I have a theory that this was actualy somewhat based on restrictions in geth programming. It is reasonable to assume that the quarians had placed restrictions on the geth to ensure safety, think the three laws of robotics. Which would have worked fine until the geth started adapting their programming. Now the geth were also likely programmed for self presurvation so when the quarians attacked they reciprocated but they chose not to wipe out the entire race because they were still restricted  by their programming to protect the quarian race so they stopped attacking once they no longer percieved the quarians as a sginificant threat. With this in mind I actually think that if the Migrant fleet came under significant attack the geth would move in their defence.

This is not to say that the geth are not sentient but that their sentience is based on their original core programming to a significant degree.

[Iwakura-Lain]

Shandepared wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...

Do you seriously, honestly believe if a Reaper-created (or backed, or whatever) virus wasn't 100% effective,

The only geth it did not work on were those who were in isolated systems. Any geth that actually came in contact with the virus were rewritten.

Ay, there's the rub, isn't it!? Because that's precisely the point. You think you figured it all out. What could possibly go wrong? And then, surprise, turns out there was a little condition you didn't anticipate after all. And mayhem ensues! It only takes a handful of Geth to remain unaffected, for whatever reason, and you're dead.

Way things are set up with Legion, though, I think it's pretty clear we're looking at a Geth-Quarian reconcilliation come ME3 (or at least the choice to make it so).

[Kikaimegami]

Volrath937 wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....peal_to_emotion

I hate children. I'll be the first to admit it. This isn't an emotional issue to me, or at least, that's not how I'm trying to present it. I'm saying that if someone who doesn't understand morality, who needs to be taught about right and wrong because they don't know it yet, in the course of protecting themselves from death ends up taking the life of that which is threatening them, they shouldn't then be put to death for that action, because they simply don't understand the morality of the issue (ignoring the fact that even in most societies, there's laws in place that let you act in self-defense).

[Pacifien]

I'm going to tell you all one last time, I have no patience today watching this discussion about Geth/Quarian conflicts continue in the Tali thread.

[Kikaimegami]

Pacifien wrote...

Okay, here's something I want you to consider: Tali fans condone genocide so casually. / They're more similar to geth fans than they'd like to admit.

You have just said someone who is a fan of Tali condones genocide. You have just compared them to a fanbase of another faction. Neither one of these statements is about Tali. Both of them are comments on real life individuals. Neither of them is acceptable.

I apologize; that was out of line.

[nickFury]

Kikaimegami wrote...

phonypapercut wrote...

Easier when they have the wrong idea of what sentience is.

*LoveKikai'slogic snip*

I Absolutely love this argument, really follows allong with what I was thinking about the geth after talking with Legion about the morning war and hearing that recording of the geth asking if it had a soul. This to me is the biggest nail in the coffin of saying that the geth arnt sapient. Like I said their sapience maybe based on their core programming to a large degree but this unit asking such a philosophical question shows much more than just impulses that are soly from programming logic.

I think therefore Iam

Edit;Sorry Pacifen just saw your post.

Modifié par nickFury, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Kikaimegami]

To bring this whole train wreck back around...



How do you feel Tali's opinions change towards the geth after you settle the conflict with Legion in the AI Core? She ends up sharing non-classified data (which is likely stuff anyone could get off the extranet, but it's the thought of it) with Legion as a sort of peace-offering. Do you think that Shepard's speech (whether you went Paragon or Renegade) helped change her mind, or do you think she's merely doing it because of Shepard, but not because her views are any different?

[nickFury]

Kikaimegami wrote...

To bring this whole train wreck back around...

How do you feel Tali's opinions change towards the geth after you settle the conflict with Legion in the AI Core? She ends up sharing non-classified data (which is likely stuff anyone could get off the extranet, but it's the thought of it) with Legion as a sort of peace-offering. Do you think that Shepard's speech (whether you went Paragon or Renegade) helped change her mind, or do you think she's merely doing it because of Shepard, but not because her views are any different?

I think its a step tword her views changing yes Tali did it mainly because shepard wanted her to but she also trusts shepard more than anyone else in the galaxy and she knows he wants what is best for her and her people (this depends on your persanal shep of course) so this is going to make her question her own beliefs.

[Volrath937]

Kikaimegami wrote...

To bring this whole train wreck back around...

How do you feel Tali's opinions change towards the geth after you settle the conflict with Legion in the AI Core? She ends up sharing non-classified data (which is likely stuff anyone could get off the extranet, but it's the thought of it) with Legion as a sort of peace-offering. Do you think that Shepard's speech (whether you went Paragon or Renegade) helped change her mind, or do you think she's merely doing it because of Shepard, but not because her views are any different?

It's hard to say, since regardless of whether you use intimidate or charm and regardless of how you lean during the loyalty mission itself, she hands over the data. The best explanation I can see is that it's her showing Shepard that she'll accept Legion as a teammate for the sake of the mission, all her prejudices aside. It wouldn't make much sense if Shepard does the loyalty mission "war-minded" and she all of a sudden decides to make peace because of a personal revelation. 

[Eldareus]

Kikaimegami wrote...

To bring this whole train wreck back around...

How do you feel Tali's opinions change towards the geth after you settle the conflict with Legion in the AI Core? She ends up sharing non-classified data (which is likely stuff anyone could get off the extranet, but it's the thought of it) with Legion as a sort of peace-offering. Do you think that Shepard's speech (whether you went Paragon or Renegade) helped change her mind, or do you think she's merely doing it because of Shepard, but not because her views are any different?

Tali's being reasonable and a good team player. She doesn't want to negatively impact the mission even if it violates some of her cultural bias about the Geth.

[NuclearBuddha]

It wouldn't signify much at all, really, until you get to the peace offering. That was nothing Shep had suggested. It's the only evidence we have of an actual shift in view on her part.

[Kikaimegami]

nickFury wrote...

I think its a step tword her views changing yes Tali did it mainly because shepard wanted her to but she also trusts shepard more than anyone else in the galaxy and she knows he wants what is best for her and her people (this depends on your persanal shep of course) so this is going to make her question her own beliefs.

That's pretty much how I felt about it. Even if she isn't sharing the data because of a direct change in her beliefs at that moment, I think that afterwards, she is going to put some serious thought into it.

[nickFury]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

It wouldn't signify much at all, really, until you get to the peace offering. That was nothing Shep had suggested. It's the only evidence we have of an actual shift in view on her part.

Good point as usual Buddha. For some reason this never clicked that it wasTali's own initiative to give Legion the nonclassified data. But I would still say she initially did it as a way to satisfy both Legion and shepard rather than an significant change of her views.

[NuclearBuddha]

I can only imagine what the "non-classified data" consisted of. Though, knowing the geth, even a quarian mixtape would probably be appreciated.

[Kikaimegami]

nickFury wrote...

Good point as usual Buddha. For some reason this never clicked that it wasTali's own initiative to give Legion the nonclassified data. But I would still say she initially did it as a way to satisfy both Legion and shepard rather than an significant change of her views.

Her way of preserving unit cohesion I guess Though, even if it's part of her own initiative, I can see her still doing it out of a desire to show Shepard she is listening.

[Kikaimegami]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I can only imagine what the "non-classified data" consisted of. Though, knowing the geth, even a quarian mixtape would probably be appreciated.

Well, considering the music, opera was it?, playing at the end of the Geth Incursion missions in ME1, they'd probably really love a mixtape of "Tali's quarian battle music" that she listens to through her suit helmet during epic fights with Shepard Because you know Garrus does the same thing and I can totally see Tali rocking out.

[NuclearBuddha]

It's a shame we don't have another loyalty conflict for comparison, really. The Miranda/Jack one isn't really "resolved" so much as postponed, and isn't particularly analogous to Tali and Legion's issues with each other. Tali and Legion can solve their differences with surprisingly little rancor once Shep gets involved.