16775 réponses à ce sujet

[Nilfalasiel]

Shandepared wrote...

Why was he an idiot? He had good reason not to trust Commander Shepard or Tali's judgment considering Cerberus was involved. If it hadn't been for that heavy mech he'd have probably been recieved back on the Migrant Fleet as a hero.

Too bad for him.

He was an idiot because he rushed in without prior knowledge of the terrain, disobeying direct orders, and got the entire squad killed. All because his distrust of Cerberus. I can understand why he wouldn't trust them, but Tali was in command. She said "we cooperate", so it wasn't his call.

[PrinceLionheart]

Spartanburger wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...
In other words, Shepard is Kal'Reegar.

In a way, but with more under his command and a bit more experience with combat (I think). 

Wasn't trying to be a smartass, it was just that the scenario you were describing was essentially what happened during Tali's recruitment mission. 

[AventuroLegendary]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Spartanburger wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...
In other words, Shepard is Kal'Reegar.

In a way, but with more under his command and a bit more experience with combat (I think). 

Wasn't trying to be a smartass, it was just that the scenario you were describing was essentially what happened during Tali's recruitment mission. 

Shepard is a commander. I'm not sure what rank Kal is. I'm thinking that quarian military has a different ranking system as with every other species militaries and PMCs.

[Someone With Mass]

Prazza had only himself to blame for rushing ahead and die like another Leroy Jenkins.

[AventuroLegendary]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Prazza had only himself to blame for rushing ahead and die like another Leroy Jenkins.

Except he succeeded... in keeping Tali safe while working as a distraction. Prazza doesn't have chicken:)

[CroGamer002]

Shandepared wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Prazza was an idiot, but Tali clearly had no authority over him.

Why was he an idiot? He had good reason not to trust Commander Shepard or Tali's judgment considering Cerberus was involved. If it hadn't been for that heavy mech he'd have probably been recieved back on the Migrant Fleet as a hero.

Too bad for him.

In other words if he listen to Tali he and rest of his team would be alive.

[camoboy_19]

Shandepared wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

He was an idiot because he rushed in without prior knowledge of the terrain, disobeying direct orders, and got the entire squad killed. All because his distrust of Cerberus. I can understand why he wouldn't trust them, but Tali was in command. She said "we cooperate", so it wasn't his call.

His squad got passed the mechs just fine. It was only the heavies that caused things to go wrong. Disobeying Tali's orders does not make him an idiot. Besides, if Shepard insists on taking Veetor then Prazza is ultimately proved right in not trusting him.

Well, the flaw in Prazza was that he thought that he could get to Veetor fine without Tali's support or Shepard's support. A LOKI mech isn't challenging, it walks pretty slow, never has shields, and can lose it's parts before it dies. FENRIS and Drones aren't very tough either. But a YMIR mech, is extremely hard to destroy for your average squad.

Prazza is an idiot because he disobeyed a direct order from his superior. even after all that, he tried to fight a YMIR mech without cover, trying to destroy it on the run, as if.

And Miranda is the main force behind trying to take Veetor  (Cerberus Cheerleader). It's obvious that it's wrong to take Veetor to Cerberus, and a Renegade Shepard with no soul will do that to Tali.

So Yes, Prazza is from a very uncommon strain of stupidity in the Quarian race.

[camoboy_19]

Shandepared wrote...

mrsph wrote...

You don't disobey your commanding officer and run into hostile territory.

You do when your commanding officer is colluding with the enemy and is a bad leader on top of that.

Sorry, but Tali was really pushing it asking her people to work with Cerberus.  So Shepard is there, so what? She wasn't being logical. Prazza was just unlucky.

We're talking about Shepard.

THE Shepard.
It's a pretty safe and smart bet for Tali to rely on assisstance from Shepard. And there's no reason for Prazza to say Tali is a bad leader as of yet. Shepard is not working for Cerberus, therefore, it is not safe to assume Shepard is the enemy. Prazza got what was coming to him, If you're gonna act like an *** on the battlefield, you might as well get the deserved kicking.

[Lord Coake]

Shandepared wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

He was an idiot because he rushed in without prior knowledge of the terrain, disobeying direct orders, and got the entire squad killed. All because his distrust of Cerberus. I can understand why he wouldn't trust them, but Tali was in command. She said "we cooperate", so it wasn't his call.

His squad got passed the mechs just fine. It was only the heavies that caused things to go wrong. Disobeying Tali's orders does not make him an idiot. Besides, if Shepard insists on taking Veetor then Prazza is ultimately proved right in not trusting him.

Yes, it does.  She was in command, she decided to work with Shep and his group.  It didn't matter if Prazza disagreed.  Him completely ignoring the order given to him got him and his squad killed.  He's an idiot.

[Someone With Mass]

Shandepared wrote...

mrsph wrote...

You don't disobey your commanding officer and run into hostile territory.

You do when your commanding officer is colluding with the enemy and is a bad leader on top of that.

Sorry, but Tali was really pushing it asking her people to work with Cerberus.  So Shepard is there, so what? She wasn't being logical. Prazza was just unlucky.

Rushing in without having a clue what might be around the corner is a still stupid move, though. Cerberus or not.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[camoboy_19]

mrsph wrote...

Tali is a bad leader.

But Prazza is a worse one for rushing off ahead and getting his squad slaughtered.

I'm not saying Tali is a good leader, but that mission in particular wasn't going wrong until Prazza went AWOL and got all his friends massacared by the Master Chief of all mechs on Freedom's Progress.

[Water Dumple]

Prazza had some ****** poor judgment, but in the end, one purpose of a leader is to keep the fools in line. Tali even gives Prazza the leave to "go wait on the ship" if he doesn't want to follow orders, which when asserted that way basically says "I'll let you do whatever the hell you want". Freedom's Progress shows that she doesn't know how to keep subordinates in line, Haestrom demonstrates that she cannot deal with subordinates tactically (Shepard's convincing is the only reason one can live), and the Suicide Mission makes it clear that she's not exactly capable of leading in the midst of intense combat.

Tali follows tasks well, but simply has no leadership capabilities.

[camoboy_19]

michaelrsa wrote...

camoboy_19 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Tali is a bad leader.

But Prazza is a worse one for rushing off ahead and getting his squad slaughtered.

I'm not saying Tali is a good leader, but that mission in particular wasn't going wrong until Prazza went AWOL and got all his friends massacared by the Master Chief of all mechs on Freedom's Progress.

Problem is is she's negotiating with her subordinate. That was the only thing I need to see that she isn't leadership material.

If I go down in a fight I'm going to have Garrus run the ship until I'm back. He knows how to lead.

Garrus is the only other person on the ship besides Shepard who's responsible with leadership.

Prazza might not have any respect for anyone, but I agree Tali shouldn't have to argue with the moron.

[Spartanburger]

mrsph wrote...

Tali is a bad leader.

But Prazza is a worse one for rushing off ahead and getting his squad slaughtered.

As my post clearly stated, there are different kinds of leadership.
Tali may not be good at inspiring people with speeches, or leading a combat squad, but she would be perfect in the situation she is in on the normandy. Lead engineer. She commands Ken and Gabby. And she does a great job at it otherwise she wouldn't do it. 

In short, split leadership into its different types and you are both right and completely, wrong.

[camoboy_19]

Water Dumple wrote...

Prazza had some ****** poor judgment, but in the end, one purpose of a leader is to keep the fools in line. Tali even gives Prazza the leave to "go wait on the ship" if he doesn't want to follow orders, which when asserted that way basically says "I'll let you do whatever the hell you want". Freedom's Progress shows that she doesn't know how to keep subordinates in line, Haestrom demonstrates that she cannot deal with subordinates tactically (Shepard's convincing is the only reason one can live), and the Suicide Mission makes it clear that she's not exactly capable of leading in the midst of intense combat.

Tali follows tasks well, but simply has no leadership capabilities.

Tali's an engineer, not a squad leader.

Garrus (and Miranda I guess sorta) is the only other person on the Normandy who is an effective leader.

[camoboy_19]

Spartanburger wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Tali is a bad leader.

But Prazza is a worse one for rushing off ahead and getting his squad slaughtered.

As my post clearly stated, there are different kinds of leadership.
Tali may not be good at inspiring people with speeches, or leading a combat squad, but she would be perfect in the situation she is in on the normandy. Lead engineer. She commands Ken and Gabby. And she does a great job at it otherwise she wouldn't do it. 

In short, split leadership into its different types and you are both right and completely, wrong.

Tali doesn't have mindset for Shepard's job, but leave her in charge of maintainence and the Normandy will run at 347%.

[Water Dumple]

camoboy_19 wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...

Prazza had some ****** poor judgment, but in the end, one purpose of a leader is to keep the fools in line. Tali even gives Prazza the leave to "go wait on the ship" if he doesn't want to follow orders, which when asserted that way basically says "I'll let you do whatever the hell you want". Freedom's Progress shows that she doesn't know how to keep subordinates in line, Haestrom demonstrates that she cannot deal with subordinates tactically (Shepard's convincing is the only reason one can live), and the Suicide Mission makes it clear that she's not exactly capable of leading in the midst of intense combat.

Tali follows tasks well, but simply has no leadership capabilities.

Tali's an engineer, not a squad leader.

Garrus (and Miranda I guess sorta) is the only other person on the Normandy who is an effective leader.

Zaeed founded a group of successful mercs, so he's definitely something there. Just not exactly charismatic, and does tend to put himself before the troops ("I was the only one who survived that day," etc).

[Spartanburger]

camoboy_19 wrote...

Tali doesn't have mindset for Shepard's job, but leave her in charge of maintainence and the Normandy will run at 347%.

Precisely.
Without her, the suicide mission would actually have been a suicide mission because (IIRC) doesn't the EZZO core explode or something if you don't get Tali's shielding? Basically meaning that technically they probably would not have been able to get home.

Speaking of which, I find it annoying that when you arrive at the galactic core you never see the corresponding OMG-4 relay. Even when escaping you don't see one. As if suddenly, through pure awesomeness (Tali did something to the FTL drives maybe) they could travel back without using a relay.

[camoboy_19]

Spartanburger wrote...

camoboy_19 wrote...

Tali doesn't have mindset for Shepard's job, but leave her in charge of maintainence and the Normandy will run at 347%.

Precisely.
Without her, the suicide mission would actually have been a suicide mission because (IIRC) doesn't the EZZO core explode or something if you don't get Tali's shielding? Basically meaning that technically they probably would not have been able to get home.

Speaking of which, I find it annoying that when you arrive at the galactic core you never see the corresponding OMG-4 relay. Even when escaping you don't see one. As if suddenly, through pure awesomeness (Tali did something to the FTL drives maybe) they could travel back without using a relay.

Tali is just that good.

If she dies in the mission, you're stuck there in ME3.

[TheodoricFriede]

I'm on the side that says that Tali isn't a great military leader. But, shes not a terrible one either.

Don't forget, she was a good enough military leader on Freedoms Progress to know that she needed to work with Shepard to get everyone out of there alive. Haestrom was an ambush, theres nothing she could have done about that.
Its not as though shes not leadership material at all. Shes chief engineer after all.

Modifié par TheodoricFriede, 01 octobre 2010 - 12:07 .