16775 replies to this topic

[Volrath937]

It really depends on what the non-classified information is, could be something out of quarian Wikipedia for all we know. It really doesn't make sense as an olive branch if you do her loyalty mission as a renegade either. Also, does the fight trigger if you fail the loyalty mission?



Buddha, you wanna repost that timeline you made up for the dossier?

[XX55XX]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Great, now maybe the Tali fans will come back and take the survey, so it may become a little more balanced.

Anyways, to start a discussion:

Do you think that Tali will undergo any sort of dramatic character change, like Liara did? Will the geth/quarian conflict have an impact on how to she views herself? Shepard? The geth? The quarians?

I think that would bring in a lot of depth to her character, kind of how it did for Liara. I would love to see how she handles such a conflict.

Link the poll here, that will help, perhaps.

Her views really have already changed, though in a less drastic fashion.  She was pretty much "the quarian representative" in ME1, and now in ME2, she has a much more nuanced view of her own people.  Seeing as how they turned on her as a political move, and all.

Not to mention that she actually ends up sharing with Legion if you use ULB in the loyalty conflict.  That's pretty out there for a quarian.

I agree, that is a very subtle transformation... Never really thought of it that way until you put it to words.

Anyways, for Tali fans, you can read the instructions to the survey here:

http://social.biowar...8/index/4767278

[Pacifien]

Estelindis wrote...
I thought it was a little odd, yes.  But what has really surprised me is how much attention this dossier item received, compared to her attempted email to the family of one of the quarians lost under her command.  In retrospect, it shouldn't have surprised me, as "sex sells."  But I know I got far more pleasure from reading the attempted email.

I figured several of the squadmates had one tidbit for laughs and another for seriousness. Aside from the nerve stimulators, it's interesting to see how much of that suit acts like a computer beyond just an environmental enclosure. Makes me think on the inside of that helmet, what we can't see is a display similar to Tony Stark's from the Iron Man movie. Perhaps quarian eyes glow because they're reflecting back the light of that display.

But anyway, it is the letter to the families of her fallen comrades that I think is particularly telling of Tali's character. Not that she has particular interest in humans -- I think even without a romance with Shepard, Tali would try to absorb knowledge about every species she encounters. But with the letter, it shows just how much leadership wears down her very soul. If she had Shepard's job, to lose so many people so often, I don't know if she could honestly handle it and still be Tali.

[Estelindis]

NuclearBuddha wrote...
In a way, you've captured why that dossier gets attention AND why it seems odd that it's the same for femShep.  Everyone just assumes it's about sex.

Personally, I assumed it was a sexual reference because the nerve-stim pro reference seems to evoke the conversation between the lovestruck turian and the obvious quarian in Eternity.  But perhaps I was wrong, in which case you have just caught me falling into the very thought trap I mentioned.

Pacifien wrote...
I figured several of the squadmates had one tidbit for laughs and another for seriousness.

That sounds perfectly reasonable.

Pacifien wrote...
Aside
from the nerve stimulators, it's interesting to see how much of that suit acts like a computer beyond just an environmental enclosure. Makes me think on the inside of that helmet, what we can't see is a display
similar to Tony Stark's from the Iron Man movie. Perhaps quarian eyes glow because they're reflecting back the light of that display.

...and that sounds perfectly awesome. I always assumed Tali's eyes glow naturally, but that's actually quite a
cool explanation that reconciles the organic and the synthetic in a nicely holistic fashion.  (Personally, what I can't manage to do is imagine quarians with geth-like mouths.  Logically, I would have thought they'd
create the geth in their own likeness...  Yet I can't imagine how they'd actually look like that and manage not to be goofy / spooky.)

Edited by Estelindis, 13 September 2010 - 08:28 PM.

[Volrath937]

Pacifien wrote...
I figured several of the squadmates had one tidbit for laughs and another for seriousness. Aside from the nerve stimulators, it's interesting to see how much of that suit acts like a computer beyond just an environmental enclosure. Makes me think on the inside of that helmet, what we can't see is a display similar to Tony Stark's from the Iron Man movie. Perhaps quarian eyes glow because they're reflecting back the light of that display.

They'd have to have some sort of HUD in there to compensate for the restricted visibility. Male quarians especially, their heads are very recessed in their helmets. I think if you look at Tali's visor during the romance scene, you can see these 2 squares on the top of the visor that could be for displaying information. 

[NuclearBuddha]

Estelindis wrote...
Personally, I assumed it was a sexual reference because the nerve-stim pro reference seems to evoke the conversation between the lovestruck turian and the obvious quarian in Eternity.  But perhaps I was wrong, in which case you have just caught me falling into the very thought trap I mentioned.

There are humorous elements there, of course, but I hate to just discount stuff as a joke when you can read into it instead.

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Estelindis wrote...
Personally, I assumed it was a sexual reference because the nerve-stim pro reference seems to evoke the conversation between the lovestruck turian and the obvious quarian in Eternity.  But perhaps I was wrong, in which case you have just caught me falling into the very thought trap I mentioned.

There are humorous elements there, of course, but I hate to just discount stuff as a joke when you can read into it instead.

Joke or not, those logs ARE cannon, and according to word of god, they DID happen.

Whether people want to admit it or not.

[Collider]

The dossiers have humorous and serious segments. The latter are the only ones that I actually consider canon.

[NuclearBuddha]

Volrath937 wrote...
Buddha, you wanna repost that timeline you made up for the dossier?

Suit Process Log:-
Upgraded Interface GUI for relic technology (Fee authorization: Project Haestrom)-
Upgraded suit diagnostics for radiation detection (Fee authorization: Project Haestrom)-
Upgraded omni-tool for enhanched data integrity (Fee authorization: Project Haestrom)

This is all Haestrom, obviously

- Upgraded translator software for all human languages-
Installed suit application, NutriScan 2.2-
Installed suit application, EngiMaster 3.6: Human Vessels

She joins the Normandy

- Installed suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro-
Downloaded entertainment vid, "Exiles: Portaits of the Lost Quarians"

Not quite sure what this is.She worries about being exiled.

Installed prototype defense suite, ShieldJack 0.8 (Authorization: Adm. Han'Gerrel vas Neema)

Her loyalty power gained.

- Upgraded medical scanning and quarantine suite-
Ran process, Infection Treatment (Isolated)

"I've got a little fever and I'm taking it out on the drive core."

- Downloaded education vid, "Dealing with Loss"

Her father is dead. It sinks in.

- Uninstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro-
Reinstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro-
Downloaded education vid, "Understanding Body Launguage: Human Edition"

Shepard is... interested? In linking suits? Really?

- Downloaded entertainment vid, "Fleet and Flotilla"-
Uninstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro

"I want it to be real."

- Downloaded education vid, "Human Courtship and Mating"-
Installed suit application, Immunoboost: Professional Edition

Okay, time for some practical research.

einstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro: Deluxe Edition

that was great. Need to figure out how to do this more often!

---

Now, obviously this interpretation only applies to a guyShep who romanced her.

[RiptideX1090]

Collider wrote...

The dossiers have humorous and serious segments. The latter are the only ones that I actually consider canon.

That's selective.

Those files are legit.

Maybe some were meant in a joking manner.

But that's not the point.

Point is, they are established fact.

Word of God overrules yours.

[NuclearBuddha]

Volrath937 wrote...
They'd have to have some sort of HUD in there to compensate for the restricted visibility. Male quarians especially, their heads are very recessed in their helmets. I think if you look at Tali's visor during the romance scene, you can see these 2 squares on the top of the visor that could be for displaying information. 

Ascension notes that the visors/helmets have all sort of magnification and such built in.  The quarians are making the most of the suits they're stuck in.

[Collider]

Word of God overrules yours.

I hope we don't revisit the same episodes from before, Rip (meaning I don't want us to interact in a confrontational way, it just doesn't work).
it's just my opinion that I don't consider it something to be taken seriously.

Edited by Collider, 13 September 2010 - 08:43 PM.

[LordPennlocke]

Pacifien wrote... But with the letter, it shows just how much leadership wears down her very soul. If she had Shepard's job, to lose so many people so often, I don't know if she could honestly handle it and still be Tali.

This gave her all the more reason to join Shepard on Haestrom. If she hadn't, she would have had to deal with the politics aboard the Flotilla, something that would have driven her over the edge and changed her completely. This would also lead to questions about her becoming an Admiral as she mentioned after her loyalty mission. In her mind, it would be for the sake of the Fleet, but it would be conflicted by her past failures to lead small groups of people. The question would be, could she really lead millions, despite her being unable to successfully lead a dozen or so?

[RiptideX1090]

Collider wrote...

Word of God overrules yours.

I hope we don't revisit the same episodes from before, Rip (meaning I don't want us to interact in a confrontational way).
it's just my opinion that I don't consider it something to be taken seriously.

Right.

Apologies.

I sometimes forget that.

At any rate, it's nice to be able to see my signature again. Feels nice. we'll see how long this lasts.

And I agree with Buddha's earlier statements. Bioware did awesome with Shadow Broker adressing pretty much all your LIs. Tali included.

[Thundertactics]

Sorry, can't quote, only use quick replies on my cellphone. But Tali's eyes being reflective rather than bioluminiscent is indeed the general consensus among Tali fans, I suggest you take a look at the "Quarian Geographic" thread in Clan Zorah for more scientific theories regarding quarian eyes.

That said, BioWare will likely go for bioluminescense, as it's more aesthetically consistent and pleasing. Not to mention the geth have "flashlight eyes" too.

[Pacifien]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
Point is, they are established fact.

Word of God overrules yours.

I always get into trouble when it comes to canon, especially when there's a fandom that has levels of canon. I could ignore the existence of Tali's dossier, afterall, it's a DLC that not everyone will purchase and it doesn't quite fit with my view of her character. It makes my enjoyment of the story a little bit better.

However, I have to keep my own personal view of the ME universe separate from the general view of the ME universe when it comes to debates. This is particularly true when I'm discussing love interests, because many people here are going into their interpretation of the character with Tali as a love interest and I am not. Statements Tali make to a male Shepard are canon. But they don't exist for my female Shepard, she never made them in the game. I can just as well assume they don't exist.

I think I'm getting a bit cerebral and I've been working only with the power of caffeine today... Okay, here's an example of where canon and me conflict:
Canon - Han Solo and Leia got married. Discuss post-movie scenarios with others, I have to accept this fact.
My canon - Leia dumped Han's ass. I don't read the novels, I can believe this all I want. But I can't argue the fact with others because book canon trumps my canon in SW debates.

Anyway, Tali's a young woman. And hasn't linked suits with anyone. I don't care how much you want to play a young woman as a saint, I can tell you it is soooo likely BS and that nerve stimulation is happening somewhere.

Okay, but I admit it's a bit juvenile tongue-in-cheek to throw into the game. Wouldn't be the first time.

[NuclearBuddha]

LordPennlocke wrote...
This gave her all the more reason to join Shepard on Haestrom. If she hadn't, she would have had to deal with the politics aboard the Flotilla, something that would have driven her over the edge and changed her completely. This would also lead to questions about her becoming an Admiral as she mentioned after her loyalty mission. In her mind, it would be for the sake of the Fleet, but it would be conflicted by her past failures to lead small groups of people. The question would be, could she really lead millions, despite her being unable to successfully lead a dozen or so?

While I agree that Tali wouldn't be a great Admiral (based on her being a poor squad leader), the change I'd like to see most is a little more self-confidence.

Y'know, less "I couldn't make you happy, no matter how much I..." and more "Shepard is mine!"  Or, alternatively, more "I won't let you down," like in the suicide mission.

[Pacifien]

I could go with reflective or bioluminescent eyes really. I lean toward bioluminescent because I like to think the very nature of their homeworld is as odd to us as looking at the bioluminescent creatures of the deep sea on our own world.

[Volrath937]

Pacifien wrote...
Anyway, Tali's a young woman. And hasn't linked suits with anyone. I don't care how much you want to play a young woman as a saint, I can tell you it is soooo likely BS and that nerve stimulation is happening somewhere.

Okay, but I admit it's a bit juvenile tongue-in-cheek to throw into the game. Wouldn't be the first time.

I think the best way to look at it is that what happened in her dossier happened, end of story. 
Her intentions change depending on Shepard. You can work it to fit any scenario, from Shepard romancing her, to her checking out what her big-sister is up to, to her just being curious about humans. 

Buddha: Yes, possessive Tali would be awesome. 

Edited by Volrath937, 13 September 2010 - 08:53 PM.

[RiptideX1090]

Volrath937 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Anyway, Tali's a young woman. And hasn't linked suits with anyone. I don't care how much you want to play a young woman as a saint, I can tell you it is soooo likely BS and that nerve stimulation is happening somewhere.

Okay, but I admit it's a bit juvenile tongue-in-cheek to throw into the game. Wouldn't be the first time.

I think the best way to look at it is that what happened in her dossier happened, end of story. 
Her intentions change depending on Shepard. You can work it to fit any scenario, from Shepard romancing her, to her checking out what her big-sister is up to, to her just being curious about humans. 

Pretty much this.

The fact Tali downloaded the stim programs isn't something you can interpret.

It happened.

However, WHY she did, is open to intepretation, for sure.

[NuclearBuddha]

Volrath937 wrote...
I think the best way to look at it is that what happened in her dossier happened, end of story. 
Her intentions change depending on Shepard. You can work it to fit any scenario, from Shepard romancing her, to her checking out what her big-sister is up to, to her just being curious about humans. 

Volrath is saying it better than I did.

The characters are as deep as the thought you put into them.  It's a shame to just dismiss this as a joke and ignore it.

[kraidy1117]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Volrath937 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Anyway, Tali's a young woman. And hasn't linked suits with anyone. I don't care how much you want to play a young woman as a saint, I can tell you it is soooo likely BS and that nerve stimulation is happening somewhere.

Okay, but I admit it's a bit juvenile tongue-in-cheek to throw into the game. Wouldn't be the first time.

I think the best way to look at it is that what happened in her dossier happened, end of story. 
Her intentions change depending on Shepard. You can work it to fit any scenario, from Shepard romancing her, to her checking out what her big-sister is up to, to her just being curious about humans. 

Pretty much this.

The fact Tali downloaded the stim programs isn't something you can interpret.

It happened.

However, WHY she did, is open to intepretation, for sure.

Because she was bored.

[fourstringwizard]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

LordPennlocke wrote...
This gave her all the more reason to join Shepard on Haestrom. If she hadn't, she would have had to deal with the politics aboard the Flotilla, something that would have driven her over the edge and changed her completely. This would also lead to questions about her becoming an Admiral as she mentioned after her loyalty mission. In her mind, it would be for the sake of the Fleet, but it would be conflicted by her past failures to lead small groups of people. The question would be, could she really lead millions, despite her being unable to successfully lead a dozen or so?

While I agree that Tali wouldn't be a great Admiral (based on her being a poor squad leader), the change I'd like to see most is a little more self-confidence.

Y'know, less "I couldn't make you happy, no matter how much I..." and more "Shepard is mine!"  Or, alternatively, more "I won't let you down," like in the suicide mission.

I wouldn't say she was a poor squad leader.  Definitely not as good as Shepard or Garrus, but not poor.  She just happened to be dealing with crummy situations beyond her control.  On Freedom's Progress, she had a squad member who directly disobeyed her orders because he didn't trust Cerberus.  On Haelstrom, she accomplished her objective, but couldn't anticipate a whole Geth army swooping in to take them out. 

That said, i thought she was definitely more confident in ME2 - especially during her loyalty mission.  And I think her "I can't make you happy" line was more out of selflessness, not timidity.  Part of the reason that made her such a great LI. 

[Pacifien]

NuclearBuddha wrote...
While I agree that Tali wouldn't be a great Admiral (based on her being a poor squad leader), the change I'd like to see most is a little more self-confidence.

Y'know, less "I couldn't make you happy, no matter how much I..." and more "Shepard is mine!"  Or, alternatively, more "I won't let you down," like in the suicide mission.

I'm one of the people who feel there is a noticeable character change from the confident Tali of ME1 to the more demure Tali of ME2. Now, she does have those moments of command such as she shows with Prazza, but obviously didn't have the presence to make her commands stick. And I'm not entirely sure she was in command of the whole Haestrom mission, more like head scientist while someone like Reegar organized the actual ground mission.

Anyway, where was I going with this... Right, so I think Tali from ME1 is your typical young soul, convinced not even the Reapers themselves are going to kill her. She's either fending for herself or taking on the orders of someone else. Once she's given some more responsibility leading missions, that confidence falters as she realizes it is her decisions that now have weight on who lives or dies. And she will see these deaths with her own eyes. Her confidence as a leader then falters, but she can still have great confidence in her abilities as an engineer.

Will she ever have the qualities of a leader? Possibly. A lot of leadership is trial and error, getting better with each moment. But she might decide she'd rather spend her days working on a good engine rather than making the decisions for other people. Like Anderson -- great Admiral, not so great Councilor.

[RiptideX1090]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Because she was bored.

That's one way of looking at it.