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[Savakka1]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

This is the conclusion I came to. Rael embedded the hatred of geth within her, and all quarians share this resentment towards geth. So it may be a result of peer pressure at first. But in ME2, she becomes horrified that they conducted live experiments on the geth. Thus, sub-consciously, I think she began to believe that geth were sentient. A belief that Rael did not share.
So I agree, that after the events on the Alerei and Legion, Tali realised that the geth didn't have to be wiped out. But that it would be better if they targeted the reapers who were the cause of the heretics going to the 'dark side.'
All the more to save the galaxy with Shepard I guess.

Of course, I also believe that if you reactivated Legion, it would strongly affect her opinions about the Geth over time. I had very hostile opinions about the Geth before meeting Legion myself.

[Runescapeguy9]

FsDxRAGE wrote...
Rune, are you going kill the geth or make peace with them?

...is this a serious question?

[NuclearBuddha]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
This is the conclusion I came to. Rael embedded the hatred of geth within her, and all quarians share this resentment towards geth. So it may be a result of peer pressure at first. But in ME2, she becomes horrified that they conducted live experiments on the geth. Thus, sub-consciously, I think she began to believe that geth were sentient. A belief that Rael did not share.

I'm not sure it's clear what Rael believed about geth sentience.  He might have just thought that whether or not what he was doing was monstrous, providing a future for his daughter and reclaiming Rannoch was more important.

It's Daro'Xen who thinks the geth are just tools to be used.

[NuclearBuddha]

As an aside, I always take Tali on Legion's loyalty mission. Her reactions are fascinating.

[Savakka1]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

As an aside, I always take Tali on Legion's loyalty mission. Her reactions are fascinating.

Indeed, and it seems to be very insightful for both Shepard and Tali.

Modifié par Savakka1, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:17 .

[Volrath937]

Savakka1 wrote...
Of course, I also believe that if you reactivated Legion, it would strongly affect her opinions about the Geth over time. I had very hostile opinions about the Geth before meeting Legion myself.

Depends on how Shepard chooses to handle the situation. Even as a Paragon, I'd still argue that the magnitude of what Legion tried to do with Tali's omni-tool would set back any 'thawing' towards Geth on her part for quite a while. That she didn't shoot the construct right then and there is a testament to her faith in Shepard.  

[RaoulG4668]

Stopping by again, how are things going everyone?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Yeah, Morrigan (I mean Xen) wants the geth back as slaves. I understand that she didn't believe the geth to be sentient, but from the experiments Rael was performing (on live geth) I got the impression that he did not believe them to be sentient. He is well respected quarian, and an admiral at that. I don't think he would perform those sort of experiments if he thought the geth could feel the pain.

I personally think that geth have evolved to become sentient, hell, Legion gives evidence of it. Quarians are mastered at tech, they could have created the starts of a living race. But the quarians are hated for this work of genius instead of revered for it. But I guess not everyone in the galaxy knows that it was only the indoctrinated heretics that tried to take over the galaxy with the reapers, and that isn't the quarians' fault...

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

FsDxRAGE wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

This is the conclusion I came to. Rael embedded the hatred of geth within her, and all quarians share this resentment towards geth. So it may be a result of peer pressure at first. But in ME2, she becomes horrified that they conducted live experiments on the geth. Thus, sub-consciously, I think she began to believe that geth were sentient. A belief that Rael did not share.
So I agree, that after the events on the Alerei and Legion, Tali realised that the geth didn't have to be wiped out. But that it would be better if they targeted the reapers who were the cause of the heretics going to the 'dark side.'
All the more to save the galaxy with Shepard I guess.

Very true, we are going to need all the help we can get. That was a good analysis of it all

Cheers . I do like to put my own spin on things in the ME universe.

As for the whole human v batarian thing, I don't quite understand it. Humans haven't done anything to batarians to my knowledge, and they have no motivation for this hatred batarians have for humans (and they don't seem to hate other races as well.)
However, there is a really cool batarian with a minor part. Lovely guy called Salkie who greets you on Garrus' recruitment mission. Maybe he will be our batarian squadmate.
But I do digress (a habit of mine!) Have a Tali:

[NuclearBuddha]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
As for the whole human v batarian thing, I don't quite understand it. Humans haven't done anything to batarians to my knowledge, and they have no motivation for this hatred batarians have for humans (and they don't seem to hate other races as well.

Batarians look down on the other races in general.  It's a cultural thing.  Their repressive government probably feeds this anti-xeno animus as well to keep the focus off problems at home.

The human/batarian animosity got started when the Council awarded the Systems Alliance rights to develop the Skyllian Verge, which the batarians regarded as belonging to them.  This is why the batarian financiers targetted Elysium in the Skyllian Blitz (war hero backstory).  On the human side, the batarians are hated for being a pack of terrorists and slavers.

Anyway!  RE: the geth sentience thing:  within the ME setting, I don't think there's a really good argument that the geth aren't sentient.  They display pretty much all the requirements:  creativity, problem-solving, non-essential experimentation, hell, they even sort of worship. 

Again, it's not clear what Rael believed.  For whatever reason, he didn't involve Daro'Xen in his little scheme, though, when she should have been a natural ally.  He even hid it from his daughter, when she's supported destroying the geth all along!  He knew he was playing with fire and took every step to keep people from finding out what he was doing... sort of like he knew it was wrong on a number of different levels. 

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

You know it would have made sense for Rael to work together with Xen. It would have been mutually beneficial. However, Tali viewed her as 'mad.' Maybe Rael thought similarly and that was why he never approached her.

I agree with geth being sentient, it's a shame that Rael held little empathy for them.



Thanks for the human/batarian thing. I didn't know about that as I usually play as a sole survivor. So thanks for that

I posted a comment on the Liara v Tali thread and there is one Liara fan who is attacking everything I say and completely twisting my words to favour her argument. Hopefully that thread will get closed down soon... Geez...

[FsDxRAGE]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

FsDxRAGE wrote...
Rune, are you going kill the geth or make peace with them?

...is this a serious question?

Well I know you love quarians and going into a war will kill like all of them.... wait, you only like Tali. sry, I forgot

[Volrath937]

NuclearBuddha wrote...
Anyway!  RE: the geth sentience thing:  within the ME setting, I don't think there's a really good argument that the geth aren't sentient.  They display pretty much all the requirements:  creativity, problem-solving, non-essential experimentation, hell, they even sort of worship. 

Again, it's not clear what Rael believed.  For whatever reason, he didn't involve Daro'Xen in his little scheme, though, when she should have been a natural ally.  He even hid it from his daughter, when she's supported destroying the geth all along!  He knew he was playing with fire and took every step to keep people from finding out what he was doing... sort of like he knew it was wrong on a number of different levels. 

Sapience, not sentience. Essentially all life is sentient, only human's are sapient (so far). But yes, other than Xen and I think a few others stating otherwise, it seems very likely that Bioware is intending for us to see Geth as sapient within the Mass Effect universe. And those things aren't absolute proof. But that's for another time and topic.

It does seem likely that Rael believed Geth is alive, or at least the idea is common enough that hiding his research was prudent. And Tali's hatred for Geth seems more instinctive rather than a defined plan, hence why she needs to be told why a conventional war would never work. Rael hid it from Tali because of potential political blowback, if memory serves. Not sure why Xen wasn't involved, but I can't remember those dialogues too well at the moment. 

[Uszi]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

As an aside, I always take Tali on Legion's loyalty mission. Her reactions are fascinating.

Yeah, especially for RP purposes I always do this too.  My paragon Shep spent the game trying to talk her out of her gethocidal tendencies, and the field trip was probably educational for her.

...That and Her skillset/shotgon pwns Geth.  She's a smart choice to take regardless.

[Uszi]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
As for the whole human v batarian thing, I don't quite understand it. Humans haven't done anything to batarians to my knowledge, and they have no motivation for this hatred batarians have for humans (and they don't seem to hate other races as well.

Batarians look down on the other races in general.  It's a cultural thing.  Their repressive government probably feeds this anti-xeno animus as well to keep the focus off problems at home.

The human/batarian animosity got started when the Council awarded the Systems Alliance rights to develop the Skyllian Verge, which the batarians regarded as belonging to them.  This is why the batarian financiers targetted Elysium in the Skyllian Blitz (war hero backstory).  On the human side, the batarians are hated for being a pack of terrorists and slavers.

Right, well, don't forget the stories in the game about Batarian slavers going after human colonies.  I got the impression the Skyllian Blitz is probably the biggest event, but not the only.

Remember the spacer backstory:  the friend of your mother's who witnessed the enslavement and torture of humans by batarian slavers.  I could see how that builds up a lot of resentment...

I don't feel it though.  I kind of like the batarians, but I've always been a fan of the badguys .  I was big geth fan from ME1 and was super excited to see them expanded on in ME2.  The Codex entries I reread the most back in ME1 were probably the Geth.

Anyway!  RE: the geth sentience thing:  within the ME setting, I don't think there's a really good argument that the geth aren't sentient.  They display pretty much all the requirements:  creativity, problem-solving, non-essential experimentation, hell, they even sort of worship. 

Again, it's not clear what Rael believed.  For whatever reason, he didn't involve Daro'Xen in his little scheme, though, when she should have been a natural ally.  He even hid it from his daughter, when she's supported destroying the geth all along!  He knew he was playing with fire and took every step to keep people from finding out what he was doing... sort of like he knew it was wrong on a number of different levels. 

Rael struck me as going heavy off the Dr. Frankenstein edge.  I believe he acknowledge Geth sentience, but was still looking for a way to re-enslave them anyway.  This is implied by him ordering his subordinates to avoid necessary safety protocols in order to speed up progress--which is something only someone who's slightly crazy and who has little regard for the lives of others would do.

Everything we hear about Rael from others was that he was kind of a D-Bag.  Tali looks up to him because she has no choice, so she does her best to whitewash her relationship with him.  But Rael never struck me as a good individual -- in any measure of the word.

[Uszi]

People have criticized the Tali romance because she's gaga over Shep no matter how poorly you seem to treat her, up to the point of disgracing her father.



But if we look at how much a tool her terrible father was, is it surprising that Tali could write off some of the crap Shepard could have done to her prior to the romance?



Just some food for thought.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I know this is off the current topic but do you know when the Tali action figure is going to be released? I pre-ordered mine from Toywiz.com on January 1st and it still hasn't come yet.

[PseudoEthnic]

Uszi wrote...

People have criticized the Tali romance because she's gaga over Shep no matter how poorly you seem to treat her, up to the point of disgracing her father.

Uh, last time I checked, if you reveal the evidence at her trial, and disgrace her father, she won't like you anymore. Also, if you choose Legion over her in their confrontation(which is a dumb idea), she'll not like you then either(unless you persuade her, but you can't romance her after that.) Tali might admire Shepard for a few things, but she's not going to be a doormat for him to walk over.

Also, last time I checked, Liara is WAY more gaga over Shepard than Tali is, and she puts up with so much more from him. Shepard can commit genocide, slaughter a whole colony, kill off the council, and be a total xenophobe, but she'll still want be in a relationship with him. With Tali, she'll only put up with so much, but people refuse to see it.

[MadMapper]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

I posted a comment on the Liara v Tali thread and there is one Liara fan who is attacking everything I say and completely twisting my words to favour her argument. Hopefully that thread will get closed down soon... Geez...

Closed, lol. Damned topic. Now I'm undecided if keeping the ultimate canon Shep I'm currently playing "Tali-only" or making it "Liara-Tali" only to see what happens in ME3...

@ the Tali action figure question: if I'm correct the first action figures pack, including Tali, should be already on sale since some time. I just read about that today.

[xlavaina]

Uszi wrote...

People have criticized the Tali romance because she's gaga over Shep no matter how poorly you seem to treat her, up to the point of disgracing her father.

But if we look at how much a tool her terrible father was, is it surprising that Tali could write off some of the crap Shepard could have done to her prior to the romance?

Just some food for thought.

The people who say these things are just mindless trolls and haters. There is blatant evidence that supports Tali being "gaga" over Shepard. Don't even bother to listen to these people because they either have no idea what they're talking about, skipped all the dialog, or are 12 years old. 

[NuclearBuddha]

MadMapper wrote...
Now I'm undecided if keeping the ultimate canon Shep I'm currently playing "Tali-only" or making it "Liara-Tali" only to see what happens in ME3...

My canon is Liara, then Tali.  It really looks like Lair of the Shadow Broker resolves that, if you want it to.  I don't know what they're going to do in ME3, considering Liara took gettting dumped so well.

[xlavaina]

Liara is almost undoubtedly going to be the new TIM for ME3. I don't think the devs could've set that up any more obviously.



On a different note, do you guys think Tali will be featured or at least included in the next DLC. I can't say that I think she will considering it will require getting Liz for more VA. On the flip side, they're already working on ME3, and therefore have the VA's on quick access. Maybe the fate of the squad itself will be solidified in 3.

[NuclearBuddha]

xlavaina wrote...
On a different note, do you guys think Tali will be featured or at least included in the next DLC. I can't say that I think she will considering it will require getting Liz for more VA. On the flip side, they're already working on ME3, and therefore have the VA's on quick access. Maybe the fate of the squad itself will be solidified in 3.

There was an interview I read that talked about how difficult it was to get more than just the main VAs back for DLC.  So almost assuredly not.

It's okay.  They can save her up for ME3.

[Pacifien]

Depends on when we get the next DLC. Surely they've reached/reaching a point where VAs need to be called in to start recording dialogue for ME3. They can record dialogue for DLC at the same time. Or perhaps someone was forward thinking this time and said "hey, say random **** you think your character might say" as a go-to VO filler for future DLC.