16775 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

Collider wrote...

I disagree that it's not mutual. It is not one sided - both parties are genuinely interested.

A billion times this.

Shepard is there for Tali every step of the way.

And Tali is willing to walk through hell to help Shepard succeed.

It's silly to say it's one sided.

[XX55XX]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I disagree that it's not mutual. It is not one sided - both parties are genuinely interested.

A billion times this.

Shepard is there for Tali every step of the way.

And Tali is willing to walk through hell to help Shepard succeed.

It's silly to say it's one sided.

Well, I'm not denying that my interpretation could be flawed... but then again, I'm not the sort of person who really notices all the subtleties.

[Collider]

But come on, look at Tali. She's young, unsure, and feels vulnerable most of the time.

I have to say that's pretty untrue. Honestly, the only times where Tali is unsure and vulnerable is when she's told she sent active geth parts to the Flotilla, when she found out her father died and in her romance.



That's it. Of course, unsurprisingly, people look at the romance and assume that the romance is representative of Tali in all situations. It isn't.

[XX55XX]

That's it. Of course,
unsurprisingly, people look at the romance and assume that the romance
is representative of Tali in all situations. It isn't.

Maybe I need to play the game again...

[Someone With Mass]

Collider wrote...

I disagree that it's not mutual. It is not one sided - both parties are genuinely interested.

It's Shepard who leads it forward to the point where she decides that she wants him.
Like how he says that he's interested and that he's willing to do whatever it takes. That's what triggers the whole romance.

[Collider]

To be honest, if you want non-mutual romances (and even then I'd say the term is not very fitting), I'd point at Jack or Miranda. Jack's romance involves Shepard goading Jack into a relationship. This is basically the same for Miranda's romance, although to a lesser extent.

Regarding comforting one another - Tali does this exact same thing. It's clear that she wants the best for Shepard - which is why she says she understands if he wants someone else. If that is not being concerned for Shepard's feelings, I don't know what is.

Modifié par Collider, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:39 .

[RiptideX1090]

Collider wrote...

But come on, look at Tali. She's young, unsure, and feels vulnerable most of the time.

I have to say that's pretty untrue. Honestly, the only times where Tali is unsure and vulnerable is when she's told she sent active geth parts to the Flotilla, when she found out her father died and in her romance.

That's it. Of course, unsurprisingly, people look at the romance and assume that the romance is representative of Tali in all situations. It isn't.

Tali is many things.

She's insecure at times.

She's young.

She's vulnerable.

She's also a master hacker.

Regularly undertakes missions most would see as suicidal.

Is extremely loyal.

Is a close quarters combat specialist despite being technically handicapped by her immune system.

And has a bit of a mean streak.

[NuclearBuddha]

XX55XX wrote...
But come on, look at Tali. She's young, unsure, and feels vulnerable most of the time. Even if the romance were to be expanded significantly, I doubt much would change, given the timeframe. But, if the romance is to be continued in ME3, then maybe Tali would start doing the same for Shepard, because she would become more confident at expressing her thoughts and feelings in a more "open" manner.

What exactly is "closed" about her feelings?  She says exactly what about Shep attracts her and how she feels that he returns the affection.

[Collider]

Tali is many things.
She's insecure at times.
She's young.
She's vulnerable.
She's also a master hacker.
Regularly undertakes missions most would see as suicidal.
Is extremely loyal.
Is a close quarters combat specialist despite being technically handicapped by her immune system.
And has a bit of a mean streak.

There are many subtleties to Tali that people don't notice. I don't blame them entirely, as it often requires great perception, attentiveness, and patience. People blow through the game and think they know everything there is to know about the character. But I think we both know there's much more than what is easily readable on the surface.

Modifié par Collider, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:41 .

[RiptideX1090]

Collider wrote...

There are many subtleties to Tali that people don't notice. I don't blame them entirely, as it often requires great perception, attentiveness, and patience. People blow through the game and think they know everything there is to know about the character. But I think we both know there's much more than what is easily readable on the surface.

Same is true of many characters.

Garrus.

Mordin.

Jack.

Pretty much everyone.

Except Miranda.

And Jacob.

And Zaeed and Kasumi. But they actually pull this off fairly well.

[fourstringwizard]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

fourstringwizard wrote...
I wouldn't say she was a poor squad leader.  Definitely not as good as Shepard or Garrus, but not poor.  She just happened to be dealing with crummy situations beyond her control.  On Freedom's Progress, she had a squad member who directly disobeyed her orders because he didn't trust Cerberus.  On Haelstrom, she accomplished her objective, but couldn't anticipate a whole Geth army swooping in to take them out. 

That said, i thought she was definitely more confident in ME2 - especially during her loyalty mission.  And I think her "I can't make you happy" line was more out of selflessness, not timidity.  Part of the reason that made her such a great LI. 

"Prazza, we agreed you'd let me handle this!"  Sorry, that's not exactly leadership.

I'm looking at the whole picture:  take the rejection lines for Tali.  They're all sort of "oh well, didn't expect that to work anyway" or "yeah, of course he doesn't see me like that."  Lack of self-confidence.

Edit:  Top

I think she said "You said you'd let me handle this."  We don't even know what she was referring to.  And Prazza I think was a high-ranking NCO who was forced to serve under Tali, hence the discontent. 

And what about how she wouldn't let Shepard pursue her and another LI at the same time?  Or how she basically told the entire Admiralty board to go to hell?  She even yells at Shepard more than once during the loyalty mission.  i'm not sure how that show's she's weak or meek. 

[Mobius_118]

I blame the instant-gratification that most of today's games offer. It's too much work to watch every cutscene, read all the dossiers and actually listen to the conversations, if you can just blow through it all with the spacebar.

[greed89]

Who said Tali was "meek" ?



she is an advocate for genocide for Christs sakes

[Someone With Mass]

Collider wrote...
There are many subtleties to Tali that people don't notice. I don't blame them entirely, as it often requires great perception, attentiveness, and patience. People blow through the game and think they know everything there is to know about the character. But I think we both know there's much more than what is easily readable on the surface.

If you want to truly know a character, then you have to create some situations and see how she'll react. See things from more than just one perspective.

[Collider]

Tali is definitely not weak or meek. In fact she's very spunky. She told the admiralty board to go **** off, and she's willing to be exiled in order to protect her family name. She's gone on missions that are extremely dangerous. That takes bravery. A lot of bravery.

In her romance, she is insecure, yea. But that's her romance. People act differently in love. And even while romancing her, if Shepard acts like a jackass, she will tear him down. She is not afraid to call Shepard out. That also takes bravery.

Modifié par Collider, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[fourstringwizard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Collider wrote...

I disagree that it's not mutual. It is not one sided - both parties are genuinely interested.

It's Shepard who leads it forward to the point where she decides that she wants him.
Like how he says that he's interested and that he's willing to do whatever it takes. That's what triggers the whole romance.

Actually, Tali wanted Shepard since ME1.  It's implied in the game and stated in the wiki.  Liara herself even confirms this at the end of LotSB if Shepard had romanced Tali. 

[Adhin]

Yeah I never figured out why anyone thinks shes weak, insecure or lacking confidence. Only time I ever saw a hint of that was on her loyalty mission and the kinda **** she got hit with I dunno if I would handle it as reserved as she did. Good chance of id punched some face masks and been exiled immediately.

As for the romance she points out shes interested, in a semi-round about way when you catch her on it. Keep in mind its the first person shes ever really thought about that way. It's her first real relationship like that. Anyone who's not nervous with that 1st time around must be either one cocky SOB or emotionless. And once shep points out he wants it to... she goes right back to a more confident self.

Though I have to say I love her stumbled ramblings when shes nervous heh. Mostly because its incredibly rare she shows that kinda side to her through out ME1 or 2. And its adorable...

Modifié par Adhin, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:52 .

[NuclearBuddha]

fourstringwizard wrote...
I think she said "You said you'd let me handle this."  We don't even know what she was referring to.  And Prazza I think was a high-ranking NCO who was forced to serve under Tali, hence the discontent. 

And what about how she wouldn't let Shepard pursue her and another LI at the same time?  Or how she basically told the entire Admiralty board to go to hell?  She even yells at Shepard more than once during the loyalty mission.  i'm not sure how that show's she's weak or meek. 

Either way, the basics are the same.  And it seemed like it was pretty much in reference to what was going on at the time (guns being pointed at Shep).  "You said you'd let" is hardly how you talk to subordinates.

I'm not saying she's weak or meek.  Those are different qualities altogether than being able to inspire people to follow you.  I completely agree with your second paragraph there.

[Collider]

While this is a beautiful peice of fanart, the Quarians don't have hair.

Also, I think the Quarian features are similar to how the geth look : o

I don't believe Quarian hair was confirmed either way.

[NuclearBuddha]

fourstringwizard wrote...
Actually, Tali wanted Shepard since ME1.  It's implied in the game and stated in the wiki.  Liara herself even confirms this at the end of LotSB if Shepard had romanced Tali. 

I'd say this is still up for debate.

Liara's actual words were just that Tali was awestruck.

[Someone With Mass]

fourstringwizard wrote...

Actually, Tali wanted Shepard since ME1.  It's implied in the game and stated in the wiki.  Liara herself even confirms this at the end of LotSB if Shepard had romanced Tali. 

I meant that Shepard was pretty much the one who made the first move and kept the whole thing steady until it was decided what both of them wanted.

[XX55XX]

Mobius_118 wrote...

I blame the instant-gratification that most of today's games offer. It's too much work to watch every cutscene, read all the dossiers and actually listen to the conversations, if you can just blow through it all with the spacebar.

Not necessarily. Unless it's for a job (like reading a financial report and reporting one's findings), people are just not going to pay attention all that much to the subtleties these days. We are overwhelmed by information can't be bothered by what isn't on the surface. I daresay, people like me aren't great at reading other people. We ignore subtleties, formulate outrageous theories about other people's behavior without even really thinking about it, etc.

And that include video game characters, to an extent.

I need to play ME2 again. I focus too much on the surface level action rather than thinking about the underpinnings of every character and event.

And yes, I have listened to most of the conversations in the game.

Modifié par XX55XX, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[NuclearBuddha]

Shavon wrote...
While this is a beautiful peice of fanart, the Quarians don't have hair.  

Also, I think the Quarian features are similar to how the geth look : o

It is beautiful.  But hair is not confirmed one way or the other.

And... uh... the geth?  That's not what I'm seeing through the visor.