16775 réponses à ce sujet

[protoshepard]

Siansonea II wrote...

Since this is the Tali discussion thread, I'd like to discuss something that's always bothered me about Tali. Her father, Rael'Zorah, breaks quarian law, gets a bunch of people killed, and pretty much commits acts that lead to his posthumous exile from the Migrant Fleet if they are made known. Yet in order to win Tali's loyalty, Shepard has to agree to cover all that up, and even let Tali take the fall for Rael'Zorah if that's the only conversation option. So, how is that not completely immoral? I'm just wondering, because in the real world, if someone was committing war crimes, I think I would pretty much turn them in regardless, even if they were a family member or the father of someone I was almost-dating. Just one of those head-scratcher moments for me. I do like, however, that the game at least knows that turning over the evidence of Rael'Zorah's crimes is a Paragon action, whereas doing as Tali wishes is a Renegade action. Did this bother anyone else? That Tali's loyalty to her father was greater than her loyalty to her people or her loyalty to doing the right thing? Just curious.

I see where you're coming from and this is up for debate actually. The way I see it is that, even though she is part of the fleet and proud of it, she only had two people in her life really. Her father and Shala'Raan. If you turn in the evidence, it destroys the name of one of the only two people she ever really had to look up to. That is what I believe anyway.

[Siansonea]

protoshepard wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Since this is the Tali discussion thread, I'd like to discuss something that's always bothered me about Tali. Her father, Rael'Zorah, breaks quarian law, gets a bunch of people killed, and pretty much commits acts that lead to his posthumous exile from the Migrant Fleet if they are made known. Yet in order to win Tali's loyalty, Shepard has to agree to cover all that up, and even let Tali take the fall for Rael'Zorah if that's the only conversation option. So, how is that not completely immoral? I'm just wondering, because in the real world, if someone was committing war crimes, I think I would pretty much turn them in regardless, even if they were a family member or the father of someone I was almost-dating. Just one of those head-scratcher moments for me. I do like, however, that the game at least knows that turning over the evidence of Rael'Zorah's crimes is a Paragon action, whereas doing as Tali wishes is a Renegade action. Did this bother anyone else? That Tali's loyalty to her father was greater than her loyalty to her people or her loyalty to doing the right thing? Just curious.

I see where you're coming from and this is up for debate actually. The way I see it is that, even though she is part of the fleet and proud of it, she only had two people in her life really. Her father and Shala'Raan. If you turn in the evidence, it destroys the name of one of the only two people she ever really had to look up to. That is what I believe anyway.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that Shala'Raan is actually implicated in Rael'Zorah's doings, I don't think her name is brought into it if you turn over the evidence. Of course we know from a metagame standpoint that informing the Admiralty of what Rael'Zorah did fractures their uneasy alliance even more than it already was, but we don't know that beforehand and we can't use that as a determining factor in assessing the moral implications of Tali's wishes. And it begs the question: are Tali's "feelings" sufficient extenuating circumstances to overlook these moral implications?

[Nodscouter]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Well. Apparently my lies cannot alter reality.

Damn.
Edit:

YES! Thanks! Adding it now!

AHEM:

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

There should be a Tali sig banner that says, "Commies with shotties"

I would pay BLOOD for that.

I am waiting...

Modifié par Nodscouter, 24 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nodscouter wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Well. Apparently my lies cannot alter reality.

Damn.
Edit:

YES! Thanks! Adding it now!

AHEM:

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

There should be a Tali sig banner that says, "Commies with shotties"

I would pay BLOOD for that.

I am waiting...

See, thing about that is, well.....

...... we never set a price.

[Nodscouter]

You promised me blood, and by the maker I will get blood!
What? 'tis not off-topic! I love Tali!

[Ramirez Wolfen]

*runs*

Oh! And I love Tali as well!

[Death of Seph]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

BTW the thing my Shepard loves most about Tali, is that she loves him back.

I am sorry but this one statement just pulled me from my lurking and incited a response.  So very much agree, has been a while now since I was first talimanced and am still getting the warm and fuzzies... 

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Just to clear up the quote above, I didn't put that picture down, someone else did

And Nod, pleeeeaaase can I use the commies with shotties sig? I love it!

I was also confused as to why hiding the evidence that would prove Rael's guilt would be a paragon action... Personally, I would have much rather revealed the truth, and have a guilty person's memory incite the outrage that it should, rather than convict an innocent person to exile. So if there were no such thing as magical renegade/paragon interrupts, I would have given the Admiralty Board the evidence.

Despite Tali wanting the evidence to be withheld, she would have thanked me in the long term (or so I hope, she does have a shotgun after all...)

[Nodscouter]

Go nuts with it Tasha.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Nodscouter wrote...

Go nuts with it Tasha.

Yaaayy!!! I shall...

[Angmir]

Just making a statment :
I think it is sure enought now to say that we wont get anything Tali related in upcoming DLC - it is solo played - no dialongs from Liz Sroka, I dont expect any actions involving our squadies nighter. Some small references - like Shabobrokers dossiers are maximum what we can expect.
In general the Arrival DLC lokks so much cheaper to me that LotSB - It is still ok for me - I just hope this will be better than With Hunt

[Alienmorph]

At this point I can't avoid to ask... it was so hard putting toghether and improve the contents of LotSB and Arrival and make an expantion pack like DA:A? Really?

I can see at this point Arrival becoming just Shepard shooting mecs and batarians, meets some Captain Obvious character that we'll say that the reapers are coming, and a quick cameo of Hackett that we'll just say "You should return where you belong, with the Alliance." and leaves. No clues about what will happen to the team between ME2 and 3, and neither something vaguely romance related like the final chat with Liara.

So... nothing new about Tali. I expected that, but I hoped I was wrong

Also @Siasonea...
The situation of Tali in her LQ is quite greyish... in fact, she knows that hidden her father's action is wrong, and this is why she accepts so easily to be exiled: she breaks her people's law and she accepts to pay for it, even if her people doesn't know it. The thing that makes her loyal is the fact that Shepard undertands and respects her decision, him/her too is not exactly a saint after all.

[ElectricZ]

Siansonea II wrote...

Since this is the Tali discussion thread, I'd like to discuss something that's always bothered me about Tali. Her father, Rael'Zorah, breaks quarian law, gets a bunch of people killed, and pretty much commits acts that lead to his posthumous exile from the Migrant Fleet if they are made known. Yet in order to win Tali's loyalty, Shepard has to agree to cover all that up, and even let Tali take the fall for Rael'Zorah if that's the only conversation option. So, how is that not completely immoral? I'm just wondering, because in the real world, if someone was committing war crimes, I think I would pretty much turn them in regardless, even if they were a family member or the father of someone I was almost-dating. Just one of those head-scratcher moments for me. I do like, however, that the game at least knows that turning over the evidence of Rael'Zorah's crimes is a Paragon action, whereas doing as Tali wishes is a Renegade action. Did this bother anyone else? That Tali's loyalty to her father was greater than her loyalty to her people or her loyalty to doing the right thing? Just curious.

The question isn't about morality, it's about loyalty. Exposing the truth is undoubtedly the right thing to do, can do you it when one of your closest friends is begging you not to? Basically, Tali is asking you to become an accomplice in the cover-up. It's immoral, she knows it's wrong, but she's looking to you for support. Do you let her take the fall and potentially ruin her reputation with her people? Or do you betray her trust and expose her father's crime. It all boils down to what you, personally, thing is the "right thing" to do.

That's why Tali's loyalty mission is one of my favorites. It has some real emotional weight to it. In some ways, I wish the renegage/praragon get-away-scott-free options weren't available so you'd be forced to make a hard choice and deal with the consequences... but for me, assuming that you couldn't shame the Board into doing the right thing, letting Tali fall on the sword is the only way to go no matter how wrong I think it is to hide the war crimes. Through everything they've been through together, she's earned Shepard's unwavering loyalty. There would be future opportunities to reveal the truth in a less damaging way.

[jacobOriley]

Capt_Flashheart wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Point is, jacob?

I think Jacob is trying to say the Migrant Fleet has a representative government. In other words he's implying the Quarian government isn't communist.

Actually I'm not implying anything. Tali's own desciption says it plainly.

@Nod_there is no point Nod. You can still see it the way you want to.

[Gust4v]

YungD815 wrote...  
This would be the perfect setting for the end of ME3... Rannoch's sunset.

A little cheesy, but I would not complaint.

Angmir wrote...

Just making a statment :
I think it is sure enought now to say that we wont get anything Tali related in upcoming DLC - it is solo played - no dialongs from Liz Sroka, I dont expect any actions involving our squadies nighter. Some small references - like Shabobrokers dossiers are maximum what we can expect.
In general the Arrival DLC lokks so much cheaper to me that LotSB - It is still ok for me - I just hope this will be better than With Hunt

That was expected, it's just a DLC.
We are going to see new Tali content in ME3.

[protoshepard]

Siansonea II wrote...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that Shala'Raan is actually implicated in Rael'Zorah's doings, I don't think her name is brought into it if you turn over the evidence. Of course we know from a metagame standpoint that informing the Admiralty of what Rael'Zorah did fractures their uneasy alliance even more than it already was, but we don't know that beforehand and we can't use that as a determining factor in assessing the moral implications of Tali's wishes. And it begs the question: are Tali's "feelings" sufficient extenuating circumstances to overlook these moral implications?

I never said Shala'Raan was in question. I just said she and her father were really the last people Tali had left. If you hand over the evidence, then you know that Rael will destroy his name, and thus destroy Tali's trust and loyalty. That much can be predicted to how she behaves and reacts on the ship. She even begs you not to use it at the end. Now that you know you will lose her loyalty, you want to bring everyone you can back from that suicide mission, and a non loyal squad member has a very high probability of dying, as they will be distracted on the mission. So the question becomes, do risk a squad member and hand over the data, shattering her father's name and her trust and loyalty, or do you let her take the fall which is morally questionable, but in the end furthers Shepard's goal.

[CroGamer002]

Wait, people think Quarians are like commies?





Anyway, Quarians live under martial law, well more or less.

[belwin]

Mesina2 wrote...

Wait, people think Quarians are like commies?




Anyway, Quarians live under martial law, well more or less.

not really,
they have the conclave which is like some countries parlament.
the admiralty board just has more power than normal, so i guess the whole 'more or less' thing could apply.


also, i love it when people bend facts to hate something, good times.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Well, of course, because it is a completely alien race then they have completely alien politics. But there are parallels between the quarian government and some aspects of the commie regime. For example, they are all employed (have a job/role) and are all rationed between them equally. Which is very similar to the redistribution of wealth.

I just love the 'commies with shotties' slogan

[Nodscouter]

jacobOriley wrote...

Capt_Flashheart wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Point is, jacob?

I think Jacob is trying to say the Migrant Fleet has a representative government. In other words he's implying the Quarian government isn't communist.

Actually I'm not implying anything. Tali's own desciption says it plainly.

@Nod_there is no point Nod. You can still see it the way you want to.

I do and that does not interfere with the Quarians being democratic (Well, mostly democratic (At least, I think they are mostly democratic).
Edit: Funny. It took me about 2 minutes to make that banner, and yet everyone seems to love it. Funny how the world works sometimes.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 25 mars 2011 - 02:06 .

[Null_]

Oh keelah... this again... *hides for another 3 pages*

[jamesp81]

Mesina2 wrote...

Wait, people think Quarians are like commies?





Anyway, Quarians live under martial law, well more or less.

Some people view their economic system as socialist.

I, for one, can't roleplay my MainShep into romancing her despite how much MainShep really cares for her.  He was thinking about it before the Migrant Fleet mission.  After that, he lost most of his respect for the Quarian government and would never willingly live under their jurisdiction.

He feels that Tali is a great lady.  However, of the four admirals he met, there were two that he determined he would execute on sight if he ever catches them away from the fleet (Zaal'Koris because he's an ass, and Daro'Xen because she's bats**t insane), one that he'd beat the hell out of as punishment for dishonoring Tali (Shala'Raan) and the only one he actually liked (Han'Garrel) has the wrong idea about going to war with the Geth.

Kal'Reegar is also a good guy that MainShep likes.  Other than that, MainShep was NOT impressed by the Quarians as a whole when he went to the fleet.

Modifié par jamesp81, 25 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[Nodscouter]

Get her exiled then?

[jamesp81]

Nodscouter wrote...

Get her exiled then?

No.  She's a good lady.  She doesn't want to be exiled.  Therefore, Shepard will make damned sure that doesn't happen.  And he'll do it without wrecking her father's name.

If the admirals listen to Shepard, then good.  If not....well, he's got an experimental frigate equipped with a Thanix cannon.  I do wonder just how much **** he could tear up with that thing if it came down to it.....

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Have you done the Tali romance then? I recommend it!

Also, I agree about the quarian admirals, but I imagine the quarians outside of their political leaders are alright. In fact, quarians are my favourite race, even though my favourite character is a turian! Their culture, how they look, and their past is all very well done, and very interesting. One of the reasons why I like Tali so much!