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Tali'Zorah Thread *Spoiler warning!*


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#10576
MadCat221

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Regardless, the quarians' insular society means they couldn't care less about humanity's arrival on the galactic scene. There is also the unarguable fact that when you board the Rayya none of the quarians you overhear talking sound particularly impressed with Shepard. Even when they do praise you it is because they are surprised a human wasn't worthless trash.

They're xenophobic, fact.


Xenophobia that could have easily been reactionary due to Cerberus's actions against them.  Considering Cerberus's attitudes towards non-humans, and their complete disregard for taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions* ...

They went from being a largely blank slate of opinion towards humans to having a dislike, thanks to Cerberus's heavy-handed methods.

* = "Diplomacy is good, but problematic when everyone already considers you a threat".  And whose fault is that now, Timmay?

Modifié par MadCat221, 01 avril 2011 - 10:50 .


#10577
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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MadCat221 wrote...

Xenophobia that could have easily been reactionary due to Cerberus's actions against them.


I don't see how. A Cerberus attack has no bearing on how low they regard human (and non-quarian) captains.

#10578
Destroy Raiden_

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I doubt the Quarians as a whole were Xenophobic to begin with after all one ship took that human onboard to protect him/her from Cerberus then Cerberus came and blew said ship up so yeah they're going to be a wee bit suspicious when a second tagged Cerberus vessel docks at their largest most important ship to say hi.

Also the conversations I heard they praised fsheps suit and voice they weren't saying that human should take it's hide and go. Even if they were I was there for Tali not for what the ship thought if I cared how people viewed my shep he/she would never leave the ship. Shep has faced far worse criticism from other races in the wider world you can always term them as xenophobic I just think of them as ill informed.

#10579
AdmiralCheez

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Saph may be right on this one, actually--when you spend most of your lifetime surrounded by people just like you, and when people unlike you treat you like dirt, you tend to think people like you are better than people not like you.

Being called "vas Normandy" was not bad because it was a human ship, but because it was not a quarian ship.  In effect, it was saying "you are no longer one of us."

#10580
DrRedrum

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saph may be right on this one, actually--when you spend most of your lifetime surrounded by people just like you, and when people unlike you treat you like dirt, you tend to think people like you are better than people not like you.

Being called "vas Normandy" was not bad because it was a human ship, but because it was not a quarian ship.  In effect, it was saying "you are no longer one of us."


Im gonna have to agree with this. The real question is, will this really be an issue in ME3? With the reaper fighting (Im assuming on multiple worlds), and you get a small break after helping/ getting to the Flotilla and the thing that comes up is "We do not like you having a relationship with Tali"

Almost a perfect time for a "DO WE REALLY HAVE TIME FOR THIS?????" kind of response.:bandit:

#10581
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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I'm sure the quarians will have gained a bit more respect for Shepard. However I think a lot of that would evaporate if he was stealing away one of their greatest heroes.

#10582
jacobOriley

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Regardless, the quarians' insular society means they couldn't care less about humanity's arrival on the galactic scene. There is also the unarguable fact that when you board the Rayya none of the quarians you overhear talking sound particularly impressed with Shepard. Even when they do praise you it is because they are surprised a human wasn't worthless trash.

They're xenophobic, fact.


Think what you want Saphra. No offense intended, but  you're assumptions are not 'fact'. Opinions yes, but not fact.

If you had been out-cast and treated like scum for 300 years, you'd be a little introverted yourself and have trouble warminmg up to an outsider. That doesn't make you xenophobic or a racist. You would be acting ignorantly, because you don't know any better, but I wouldn't call you xenophobic.

If you save Reegar on the Haestrom mission, you'll find a friendly quarian on board the Rayya. If you get Tali cleared of the charges, you'll be complimented by other quarians as well. You seem to want to deal with Tali's people in 'absolutes'. I guess that's your choice to make.

#10583
Gust4v

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The Quarians don't see a human captain in the middle of Quarian politics everyday, don't expect a red carpet.

They are very cool, this is from the Cerberus news:
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05/03/2010 - Galactic Leaders Express Sympathy for Victims of Vallum Blast

“The outpouring of support for the turian victims of the Vallum Blast has reached across the Milky Way. "Today, the whole galaxy bleeds blue", said Earth's European Union's Prime Minister Hertz. On Thessia, Matriarch Tiala ordered the Serrice Republican Guard to play the turian anthem "Stars Behind Me" during their changing of the guard, an act last performed during the Krogan Rebellions after the turians lost Uchalda. The quarian Migrant Fleet made no symbolic gestures, but are sending two dozen cruisers to Taetrus packed with emergency supplies. The Salarian Union, meanwhile, is donating heavy moving equipment: state-of-the-art construction-grade vehicles that use mass effect fields to alleviate secondary collapses when digging through rubble.
------
The Migrant Fleet is dying, but they sent help to the haters anyway.


About TalixShep. They probably respect Shepard, because he recovered the Alarei, helped Tali and he is good at killing Geth.


@Cheez: The change of name was Zaal's idea. He didn't want a Quarian captain for Tali.

Modifié par Gust4v, 02 avril 2011 - 12:19 .


#10584
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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jacobOriley wrote...

 That doesn't make you xenophobic or a racist.


Yes, actually, it does. If you treat people differently because they are an outsider and of a different race then you are xenophobic and racist.

#10585
jacobOriley

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Apparently I'm a little more forgiving than you, and in my book so is Tali and the quarians. I don't make a habit of sweeping generalities, you can if you'd like. So we'll agree to disagree.

#10586
Link112

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Some definitions for phobia:

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

Hatred and/or fear (which is what defines ANY phobia) is quite different from mistrust and being wary of outsiders. Having a phobia is an extremely visceral, gut (and extremely irrational) reaction or behavior towards something. Disliking Cerberus because Cerberus tried blowing up one of your ships is not a phobia or even irrational.

The ONLY thing that the Quarians can even be considered to have a phobia about is Geth.

The Quarians don't speak down about Shepard, don't wish he wasn't there (as far as we know from what we hear). The Quarians on the ship are, at worst, polite sprinkled with some condescension that evaporates as soon as they see how awesomely Shepard defended Tali and protected the fleet.

That sounds NOTHING like a phobia to me. Nor even racism.

I would say there are ignorant, nothing more.

And someone who is a racist probably won't consider changing his or her opinion about said race even if that race saved their family from a burning building.  It's ignorance on an absolute extreme level

Modifié par Link112, 02 avril 2011 - 01:13 .


#10587
Destroy Raiden_

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^ Agreed.

#10588
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I never said quarians were irredeemable and evil people. Not even hateful. However their culture, as a whole, has an heir of xenophobia to it. Considering their lifestyle I think that is natural.

It does mean however that many of them are not going to be happy that some human is porking their greatest hero.

#10589
LyletheBloody

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Hey, this isn't some human. This is Commander freaking Shepard, and Tali's my favorite Quarian on the Normandy.

Zing-BANG

#10590
Gust4v

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Of course, not everyone will like the that, but that is because they are jerks. Jerks are everywhere, even Harbinger is a jerk.

#10591
SomeKindaEnigma

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Gust4v wrote...

Of course, not everyone will like the that, but that is because they are jerks. Jerks are everywhere, even Harbinger is a jerk.


Hey Harbinger is a nice guy :pinched:

#10592
Weiser_Cain

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Coming in at the tail-end of a conversation...
I thought it was Galactic civilization that turned it's back on the Quarians not the other way around?

#10593
Nodscouter

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Weiser_Cain wrote...

Coming in at the tail-end of a conversation...

I see what you did thar...

#10594
Weiser_Cain

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No you don't, I hate word-play.

#10595
BrutaleBent

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Weiser_Cain wrote...

No you don't, I hate word-play.


Your subconsciousness disagrees...

;)

Modifié par BrutaleBent, 02 avril 2011 - 10:14 .


#10596
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Weiser_Cain wrote...

I thought it was Galactic civilization that turned it's back on the Quarians not the other way around?


By this point the feeling is mutual.



Gust4v wrote...

Of course, not everyone will like the
that, but that is because they are jerks. Jerks are everywhere, even
Harbinger is a jerk.


I think resistance to serious relationships between different species is a natural, logical, and ultimately good thing. It's especially important for quarians who need a stable birthrate.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 02 avril 2011 - 11:58 .


#10597
Tasha vas Nar Rayya

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I don't think that quarians are any more xenophobic than any other species (apart from Asari.)

Tali was excited at the prospect of working entirely with non-quarians. And surely had the quarians been xenophobic, then they would have taught Tali the same way before she went on her pilgramage.

Even so, I admit that quarians are very insular, but due to their immune systems as opposed to any social factors. And I actually think that quarians have more reason to be xenophobic than any other race, the fact that they are 'insular' rather than 'xenophobic' says a lot about them in my opinion.

#10598
Evil_Sarevok

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If a race was truly Xenophobic, why would you in essence put your younger generations through the pilgrimage without giving them some form of protection, if they truly dispised and distrusted other races, you would often see Quarian pilgrims fully armed, Tali probably attained arms when she needed them after her information gathering in ME1, since I highly doubt you would give your younger members of society a grenade as a farewell present for normal use.

Additionally, they put Quarians on the pilgrimage, to give them an idea of the 'world' around them, if they truly disliked the rest of the galaxy then they wouldnt do this, not all Quarians come back to the fleet, for personal reasons, and if they were taught that all of the other species were horrible and bad for them, then they likely wouldnt socialise with them often at all.

You could easily add a conspiracy theory that they only do this to show younger members that the outside world is bad, but I dont think this is correct, its more of an ability to let them get an appreciation of a world they will likely never experience again, and of course to try and gain new technology away from the fleet.

Someone did previously mention that humans treat Quarians badly as well, but realistically the only humans who have been a little overzealous are the C-Sec officers, as even they can only really go off first impressions on what they have been informed to do by their superiors as standard protocol, their superiors likely being originally citadel races, non-humans then their routine would have a negative view on Quarians.

Putting it into perspective, I doubt that the humans who took Veetor in had that much of a problem with him, or wouldnt have kept him on the colony, in essence, the problem lies with others falling under the influences of citadel races' own views on other races, which are not fully true.

For instance, who'd expect a Krogan to be a romantic after first impressions with Wrex?

Modifié par Evil_Sarevok, 02 avril 2011 - 12:56 .


#10599
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

I don't think that quarians are any more xenophobic than any other species (apart from Asari.)

Tali was excited at the prospect of working entirely with non-quarians.


Quarians going on their pilgrimage are probably excited and eager to see the galaxy at large. I think the mild xenophobia manifests later in life after their pilgrimage is over.

#10600
Link112

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I never said you thought people were evil.

Also, it's not xenophobia.

The Quarians don't have intense, irrational dislike for other species. There is some mistrust, perhaps, but that is gained due to the continuation of unfair punishment that stems from the Geth.

Again, the only race you can call the Quarians xenophobic towards are the Geth. THAT is xenophobia. The rest of it is just a bit of bitterness due to the fact that they are stuck in suits without a homeworld and the majority of other races treat them like third-class citizens.

If they were xenophobic, I imagine they wouldn't have allowed a non-Quarian captain to stand for her at trial. It would have been like asking a Geth to speak for Tali.