16775 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Everyone is against Xen because enslaving the geth is what caused to the quarians losing their homes, being at war with geth, living on the Migrant Fleet, being shut up in suits and gaining the bitterness of just about every other race in the glalaxy in the first place.

That, and she' bat**** crazy.  But her voice is very nice to listen to....

[jamesp81]

Link112 wrote...

Reaper tech does seem a bit dodgy. I mean, that Reaper in 2 had been dead for millions of years but was still fully capable of Indoctrinating those aboard it. What if Quarians started wearing that tech and slowly became Indoctrinated somehow?

I refuse to kill Tali!

I'm assuming that after enough catastrophes related to Reaper tech that we eventually come to understand it well enough that we know which things are indoctrination traps and which ones are safe.

I mean, not EVERY SINGLE reaper artifact is for indoctrination or causes it.

[liannfs]

 Tali's profile. 
http://home.anet.net...fs/page/me2.png

Modifié par liannfs, 07 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[Capt_Flashheart]

Nodscouter wrote...

Yeeees, but I doubt she's ever even thought about killing some of her own. So she might get some more respect for people's lives after that.

Does Tali even need more respect for life? Like you said, she probably doesn't think about killing Quarians. Why would Tali do this, if she didn't value their lives? Quarians treat each other like family on those cramped flotilla ships. They tend to put the crew first. Tali is a shining example of this mentality. The Migrant Fleet is in a way an extended family to Tali.
I honestly don't know why we are talking about this. If anyone was to have problems with respect for life, it would be Grunt. Tali is one of the most life loving crew members on the Normandy in my opinion.

Modifié par Capt_Flashheart, 07 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[Gust4v]

Some Tali:




Very nice.

[MadCat221]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Everyone is against Xen because enslaving the geth is what caused to the quarians losing their homes, being at war with geth, living on the Migrant Fleet, being shut up in suits and gaining the bitterness of just about every other race in the glalaxy in the first place.

No, what caused that was the inability to control them. Xen offers a new means. More importantly, she offers a practical and bloodless means to get the homeworld back. Opposition to her is based on fear, not any rational judgement.

Gaining control of the geth again would end the geth threat permanently, give the quarians a formidable military, and all the manpower they could ever need. It's the most efficient way to restart their civilization.

What Geth threat?  As we learn later (or possibly earlier), the Geth are largely reactionary when it comes to use of force.  And the heretics?  They were as much a threat to the true Geth as they were to all organics.

It's total subjugation and enslavement of a species, possibly genocide depending on how you look at it, rationalized by a closed-minded opinion on what is a sapient.  And that's if it works.  We saw how well it worked out for the crew of the Alarei.  If it doesn't work... well then, the Geth are largely reactionary when it comes to use of force.  Think of the Alarei as a microcosm of what would happen to the Quarian race if it doesn't work.

That is why Tali says Xen is insane.  Tali realizes that they're sapient.  Xen seems to think that they're just things.  And if Legion is there and retorts to Xen, Tali finds herself in agreement.

Xen's deadly sin is hubris.

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[ElectricZ]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, what caused that was the inability to control them. Xen offers a new means. More importantly, she offers a practical and bloodless means to get the homeworld back. Opposition to her is based on fear, not any rational judgement.

Gaining control of the geth again would end the geth threat permanently, give the quarians a formidable military, and all the manpower they could ever need. It's the most efficient way to restart their civilization.

Yeah, except for that whole "enslavement" thing. It all boils down to whether or not you think the geth are sentient/self aware and have any kind of right to self determination, or if they are just tools that got out of hand and just need to be reset to factory defaults.



"Quite an experience to live in fear... That's what it is to be a slave."

Just out of curiosity, what did you think of this fellow's predicament? (Assuming you've seen Blade Runner.) Were you sympathetic to the replicants at all, or did you think Deckard was right when he said "Replicants are like any other machine. They're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem."

Modifié par ElectricZ, 07 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[MadCat221]

ElectricZ wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, what caused that was the inability to control them. Xen offers a new means. More importantly, she offers a practical and bloodless means to get the homeworld back. Opposition to her is based on fear, not any rational judgement.

Gaining control of the geth again would end the geth threat permanently, give the quarians a formidable military, and all the manpower they could ever need. It's the most efficient way to restart their civilization.

Yeah, except for that whole "enslavement" thing. It all boils down to whether or not you think the geth are sentient/self aware and have any kind of right to self determination, or if they are just tools that got out of hand and just need to be reset to factory defaults.


Just out of curiosity, what did you think of this fellow's predicament? (Assuming you've seen Blade Runner.) Were you sympathetic to the replicants at all, or did you think Deckard was right when he said "Replicants are like any other machine. They're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem."

Tools don't exhibit self-preservation behaviors when their destruction by the hands of their weilder is iminent.

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Everyone is against Xen because enslaving the geth is what caused to the quarians losing their homes, being at war with geth, living on the Migrant Fleet, being shut up in suits and gaining the bitterness of just about every other race in the glalaxy in the first place.

No, what caused that was the inability to control them. Xen offers a new means. More importantly, she offers a practical and bloodless means to get the homeworld back. Opposition to her is based on fear, not any rational judgement.

Gaining control of the geth again would end the geth threat permanently, give the quarians a formidable military, and all the manpower they could ever need. It's the most efficient way to restart their civilization.

Right.... So that is your opinion. Just thought I would outline that for you because you seemed to make out as if your opinion was fact.
And how are quarians any different now? They may have advanced, but so has the geth. And at a much faster rate I imagine, due to their shared platforms.

It won't be worth the risk to enslave the geth again.

[jacobOriley]

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, what caused that was the inability to control them.

Actually it was their inability to stop the geths self evolution. The genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in. Tali is being rational in realizing their mistake. A true renegade such as yourself would think different and certainly side with Xen. To each his/her own.

edit; nice pic Gust4v...yours?

Modifié par jacobOriley, 07 avril 2011 - 10:49 .

[Goodwood]

trollface.jpg

[MadCat221]

Did you not see any of Legion's inter-assignment banter? Or the loyalty conflict with Tali?

The statement that the Geth will not negotiate is patently false. You can convince Legion not to transmit the data about Rael's misdeeds and the quarians' plans, and with the Paragon version you can see the beginnings of reconciliation between Tali and Legion.

Legion says:
"To facilitate unit cohesion, we will not transmit information on Creators' plans.

The reason why they get shootey with the quarians is because the quarians have set the precedent that they get shootey first with the geth whenever they cross paths. Legion says this much to Admiral Koris if you bring Legion along to Tali's treason trial.

Try something... Don't sell Legion to Cerberus and see what they have to say. You might be surprised. You certainly won't get those kinds of philosophical waxing with a LOKI mech, that's for sure.

Shepard's deadly sin is hubris... if s/he is a Renegade.

If the quarians want the homeworld back without spilling an ounce of quarian blood and without committing the sins of their forebears, reconciliation with the Geth is their only viable option.  The onus is on them, as conversations with Legion reveals.

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Gust4v]

jacobOriley wrote...
Actually it was their inability to stop the geths self evolution. The genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in. Tali is being rational in realizing their mistake. A true renegade such as yourself would think different and certainly side with Xen. To each his/her own.

edit; nice pic Gust4v...yours?

Yes, they are new.

[lolfanboi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ElectricZ wrote...

Yeah, except for that whole
"enslavement" thing. It all boils down to whether or not you think the
geth are sentient/self aware and have any kind of right to self
determination, or if they are just tools that got out of hand and just
need to be reset to factory defaults.

Of-course they
aren't alive. They're just computer programs. You could make a better
case for EDI being alive because at least she has unique hardware. Geth
aren't hardware though, just software.

This isn't about the
geth's rights though. What they want is secondary to what the quarians
want, and the quarians want their homeworld. The geth won't negotiate
and are too formidable for the quarians to meet in battle, so Xen's way
it is.

MadCat221 wrote...

What Geth threat?
Xen's deadly sin is hubris.

The threat that occupies their homeworld, won't let them near it, won't negotiate, and will destroy them if they come anywhere near it.

If Xen is guilty of hubris then so is Shepard.

jacobOriley wrote...

Actually it was their inability to stop the geths self evolution.

Which would translate to an inability to control them.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Right.... So that is your opinion. Just thought I would outline that for you because you seemed to make out as if your opinion was fact.


It won't be worth the risk to enslave the geth again.

Right... So that is your opinion. Just thought I would outline that for you because yo useemed to make out as if your opinion was fact.

It will be wroth the risk to enslave the geth again.



Tali's a smart girl, I'm sure she'll see the light. If she wants the homeworld back it is her only practical option.

[ElectricZ]

Saphra Deden wrote...

This isn't about the
geth's rights though. What they want is secondary to what the quarians
want, and the quarians want their homeworld. The geth won't negotiate
and are too formidable for the quarians to meet in battle, so Xen's way
it is.

The threat that occupies their homeworld, won't let them near it, won't negotiate, and will destroy them if they come anywhere near it.

Tali's a smart girl, I'm sure she'll see the light. If she wants the homeworld back it is her only practical option.

All of these are false if Legion is being truthful, and so far there's no reason to doubt him. The geth don't want Rannoch, don't even occupy it in force, and have tried to undo the damage done to its biosphere during the Morning War. They certainly don't have to worry about contaminates or biohazards. They don't need a homeworld Living on a planet is inefficient for their kind. So why else would they be acting as caretakers unless at some point they thought their creators might be coming back? The logical thing to do would be to pull up stakes and leave a blasted out cinder of a planet behind.

The geth won't negotiate - also false. Legion states in front of members of the admiralty board that when the quarians felt they had the advantage, they have attacked 100% of the time. None of the quarians present deny it. Admittedly, the quarians don't discriminate between the always-hostile heretics and the true geth. Negotiation in this case is pointless to them. But Legion's presence shows there is a large faction of geth who are willing to talk, but it's the quarians who seem bent on pushing violent confrontation.

Tali is a smart girl. She's got her own personal connection to the geth collective, one that throughout the course of the game helps to save her, her friends, her ship, the man she loves and ultimately the galaxy. What's more, it seems to be willing to give her an equal chance.

A smart girl wouldn't pass that up.

Modifié par ElectricZ, 08 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[jacobOriley]

Saphra Deden wrote...

 Geth aren't hardware though, just software.

This is just nonsense.

Saphra Dedan wrote...

The geth won't negotiate and are too formidable for the quarians to meet in battle, so Xen's way
it is.

Agreed the geth are too formidable, but Legion demonstrates their willingness to negotiate.

Saphra Dedan wrote...

The threat that occupies their homeworld, won't let them near it, won't negotiate, and will destroy them if they come anywhere near it.

Neither would I, if history showed you tried to exterminate my entire conciousness. Again Legion shows willingness to negotiate.

jacobOriley wrote...

Actually it was their inability to stop the geths self evolution.

Simple clarification.

Saphra Dedan wrote...

Tali's a smart girl

We agree again. Golly, gee whiz...isn't this fun.

[jacobOriley]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tali's father had the right idea and so does Xen. Tali should be educated enough to agree with her instead of rudely insulting her whilst offering no solutions of her own.

Tali's smart enough to be rudely insulting to Xen and disaproving of her father's failed efforts.

[Goodwood]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jacobOriley wrote...

Tali's smart enough to be rudely insulting to Xen and disaproving of her father's failed efforts.

That isn't intelligence, that's immaturity. She needs to grow up more.

Yes, because we all know perfomring surgery on childhood toys is a sign of early maturity.

/trollface.jpg