16775 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Arcian wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

It is clear that you only wish to push your agenda and views. Kill the quarians. Save the geth.

No, my point is that if we have to choose, choosing the geth is overall better because they aren't militarily useless bigots with ingrained grudges like the quarians. If we get the choice to save both, naturally I will do that since the quarians are better purposed in a field medic role, kind of.

Calinstel wrote...

The pragmatic choice is to not accept either individual option.

Do you even know what pragmatic means? Saving both is impossibly pragmatic if the choice itself is inherently impossible, which it might be if BW decides to enforce the "choose one or the other, they are mutually exclusive"-idea.

Calinstel wrote...

Your argument is that since the quarians attacked the geth, it is only proper to let the geth finish the job and wipe them out?

No, it's that if the quarians keep pushing for war and refuse to work with the geth, letting the bigoted quarians perish in their inevitably losing war is preferable to helping them eliminate the inarguably stronger combat force. I'm just being harshly practical here, I don't want either to die. I even defend the bloody batarians because they can still be useful, and I in the role of Shepard has every reason to hate their guts (Mindoir and Elysium).

Calinstel wrote...

Tali would be greatly disappointed in your reasoning.

Doesn't really matter, I'm her captain. She can deal with it or request a transfer.

Calinstel wrote...

If a quarian dies, that unique entity is gone forever. If a geth dies, the geth collective downloads copies of the very same program into a new platform. Nothing unique is lost.

Also, there is no singular platform large enough to hold every geth in existence. Therefore, no matter how you angle the idea, a lot of "uniqueness" is inevitably going to be lost, which would equal mass murder on an intellectual and sapient level.

Calinstel wrote...
Fact. BW showed via Legion that peace can be obtained. If they chose now to ignore their own information then BW is much less the software company I was led to believe.

Or, it just shows the quarians ancestral hatred for the geth runs so deep that they refuse to be practical and sensical about it. Just the fact of them prioritizing to fight the geth when they KNOW the Reapers are coming shows how retarded they are being about it.

Calinstel wrote...
This is off topic

This was made with Tali in mind when I asked people to remove Tali's loyalty and love from the equation of having to choose between the quarians and the geth out of a "who is better fit to fight the Reapers"-perspective? It is a trick question, because the correct answer is the geth. Yet people keep using their obsessive love and adoration for her and her very flawed and weak species as a reason to oppose the much more combat-able and stronger geth, which of course is a valid answer to my original question because it shows how people - much like the quarians themselves - refuse to be practical about the situation.

Social experiment concluded. You can go back to your mancing.

Calinstel wrote...
and again, Tali would be highly disappointed.

And yet again, Tali can be as disappointed as she likes, I'm still her captain. And if she's got a problem with that, the airlock is that way ---->. Of course, we will land somewhere before she exits so the vacuum doesn't kill her, but still, if she's got a problem with it she is absolutely welcome to leave.

+1


BTW so you guys should know.



I am not a Tali nor Quarian hater.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

In ME1, she was pretty much the only introduction you had to the quarian race, so she was the only way you could learn about the quarian race. But I agree, she seemed like a walking codex.

But in ME2, she really gained a great personality. Her character really developed and her enthusiasm is really kinda contagious! (In a good way )

As for Daddy issues. Not nearly as much as some other squaddies.

[CroGamer002]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

In ME1, she was pretty much the only introduction you had to the quarian race, so she was the only way you could learn about the quarian race. But I agree, she seemed like a walking codex.

But in ME2, she really gained a great personality. Her character really developed and her enthusiasm is really kinda contagious! (In a good way )

As for Daddy issues. Not nearly as much as some other squaddies.

None of them ever had.

[Link112]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Link112 wrote...


A) It is quite clear Koris is in a small minority of the population looking for Quarian peace.  They either side with Xen or Gerrel.  And brainwashing a species so you can control them?  Not exactly peaceful.

A small movement is better than no movement. A movement at the highest level. What advocates for peace do the geth have? What actions have they taken to bring about peace? Nothing.

The quarians are the only ones making any kind of effort at all.

Crap!  Stupid browser ate my post.  Let's try this again.

Before Koris and others attempt to make peace overtures with the Geth, I'm sure they would want a majority of the Quarian race on their side, something that isn't going to happen with Xen and Gerrel pushing for war or mind control.

And you're damn straight the Geth aren't the ones putting forward ideas for peace, as shown by my previous Legion quote.  It would be dumb and illogical for the Geth to put forth the peace attempt with a race that is proven to attack them 100% of the time if victory is even a remote possibility.  Legion has said that the Geth are open to the idea of peace.  It's up to the Quarians to prove that they actually want peace and aren't just looking for some sort of tactical advantage.

[MadCat221]

Link112 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...



An ironic statement considering we have ever only 
seen an actual desire for peace (and actions taken to facilitate it) on
the part of the quarians. The geth meanwhile remain completely neutral
about the whole thing. For ever Xen there is a Koris.

Except that 

A) It is quite clear Koris is in a small minority of the population looking for Quarian peace.  They either side with Xen or Gerrel.  And brainwashing a species so you can control them?  Not exactly peaceful.

Also, are you forgetting Legion's quote?

"Whenever the Quarians have seen victory as a possibility, they have attacked 100% of the time."

Doesn't sound so peaceful to me.

And the Geth remain enigmatic towards what they are doing and why.  There's tons of difference between neutral and enigmatic.

And where is your proof that the Quarians are the only ones looking for peace?

The fact that a man like Koris with his opinions on the Geth was able to become an Admiral indicates that the number of quarians of that stance is not a "small minority".

The Geth can't really do anything, due to the general view of the Geth by the galaxy at large, especially and recently due to the Heretics.  Quoth Legion: "Organics fear us.  We wish to understand, not incite. One platform was deemed sufficient."  And Legion still gets shot at.  Heck, you can even partake of this impasse for communication that the Geth are troubled with by sending Legion off to Cerberus instead of listening to what they have to say.

Modifié par MadCat221, 30 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

iamtruth wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

In any event, let's not forget that Tali's character arc isn't over yet. You still have a whole final act waiting to unfold.

I find it hard to see what they'll do with her in ME3 besides acting as a 'liason' between shepard and the geth/quarians. If they do put in her the ME3 squad (which I hope they don't) it'll probably only because a lot of people seem to love her (don't see why).

Then again, she barely had any plot significant role in ME2 either, and I find her character to be one of the most interesting ones. Mostly because I think Cerberus' little trip was just retarded.

[iamtruth]

Someone With Mass wrote...

iamtruth wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

In any event, let's not forget that Tali's character arc isn't over yet. You still have a whole final act waiting to unfold.

I find it hard to see what they'll do with her in ME3 besides acting as a 'liason' between shepard and the geth/quarians. If they do put in her the ME3 squad (which I hope they don't) it'll probably only because a lot of people seem to love her (don't see why).

Then again, she barely had any plot significant role in ME2 either, and I find her character to be one of the most interesting ones. Mostly because I think Cerberus' little trip was just retarded.

What little trip? The suicide mission? How does that make her interesting?

[jacobOriley]

Calinstel wrote...
It is clear that you only wish to push your agenda and views. Kill the quarians. Save the geth.

^ ++1

Arcian wrote...No, my point is that if we have to choose, choosing the geth is overall better because they aren't militarily useless bigots with ingrained grudges like the quarians. If we get the choice to save both, naturally I will do that since the quarians are better purposed in a field medic role, kind of.

Bigoted and opinionated statement.

Arcian wrote...No, it's that if the quarians keep pushing for war and refuse to work with the geth, letting the bigoted quarians perish in their inevitably losing war is preferable to helping them eliminate the inarguably stronger combat force. I'm just being harshly practical here, I don't want either to die. I even defend the bloody batarians because they can still be useful, and I in the role of Shepard has every reason to hate their guts (Mindoir and Elysium).

Sweeping general statement based on opinion and assuming this is true for all quarian's. Harshly practical, maybe.....harshly judgemental, probably, but your choice....

Arcian wrote...Also, there is no singular platform large enough to hold every geth in existence. Therefore, no matter how you angle the idea, a lot of "uniqueness" is inevitably going to be lost, which would equal mass murder on an intellectual and sapient level.

Who even suggested this? You throw this out as an absolute truth without evidence. Whose angling an idea?

Arcian wrote...This was made with Tali in mind when I asked people to remove Tali's loyalty and love from the equation of having to choose between the quarians and the geth out of a "who is better fit to fight the Reapers"-perspective? It is a trick question, because the correct answer is the geth. Yet people keep using their obsessive love and adoration for her and her very flawed and weak species as a reason to oppose the much more combat-able and stronger geth, which of course is a valid answer to my original question because it shows how people - much like the quarians themselves - refuse to be practical about the situation.

Social experiment concluded. You can go back to your mancing.

So you framed a question to have only 1 answer, according to you, for a social experiment. mkay....as long as you're open minded about it, what the heck !

Arcian wrote...And yet again, Tali can be as disappointed as she likes, I'm still her captain. And if she's got a problem with that, the airlock is that way ---->. Of course, we will land somewhere before she exits so the vacuum doesn't kill her, but still, if she's got a problem with it she is absolutely welcome to leave.

The Garrus thread is here Garrus thread....that is the character that you prefer, if I'm not mistaken.

Modifié par jacobOriley, 30 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tali would have been a lot more interesting in ME2 if we'd recruited her earlier, like at Freedom's Progress. I'd have loved to see how she would have fit into the early Miranda, Jacob, Shepard, TIM/Cerberus dynamic. By the time you get her though that's all over and done with.

A missed opportunity on Freedom's Progress I think would have been Shepard threatening Miranda that he'd be just as content to take Veetor and leave with the quarians.

Yeah. Leave with the quarians and miss out on getting one of the most advanced warships in the galaxy back in your hands.

And how does Tali's timing affect her thoughts about Cerberus at all?

[Someone With Mass]

Again, I doubt the quarians will be there for simple brute force, like most other races will.

They can be more than that. Access to new upgrades, more people who can repair ships and such. Think outside the box, instead of going "the geth have a larger fleet, and therefore they're better"

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tali would have been a lot more interesting in ME2 if we'd recruited her earlier, like at Freedom's Progress. I'd have loved to see how she would have fit into the early Miranda, Jacob, Shepard, TIM/Cerberus dynamic. By the time you get her though that's all over and done with.

A missed opportunity on Freedom's Progress I think would have been Shepard threatening Miranda that he'd be just as content to take Veetor and leave with the quarians.

You know, when I first played the game, I thought that Tali was gonna join my squad after Haestrom.

But now you mention it, it would have been pretty cool to be able to recruit Tali early on.

[lovgreno]

jacobOriley wrote...

The Garrus thread is here Garrus thread....that is the character that you prefer, if I'm not mistaken.

Garrus fans and Tali fans have always been friends and allies in the glorious fight for xenophilia, dextro bros and mocking haters. Let's stay allied please, I belive most of us are strongly pro team dextro anyway.

[jacobOriley]

lovgreno wrote...
Garrus fans and Tali fans have always been friends and allies in the glorious fight for xenophilia, dextro bros and mocking haters. Let's stay allied please, I belive most of us are strongly pro team dextro anyway.

Very true and he is tied with Tali as my favorite. Although I have a choice to be silent.....I don't always excercise good judgement. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Shepard didn't know about the SR2 at that point and as I said regarding Tali it was how she'd interact with Miranda, Jacob, and Shepard when they still settling in on the mission. When they didn't quite trust one another yet.

Shepard would still miss out on the ship big time if he had left with Tali, regardless of his knowledge.

And Tali had her own stuff to do.

It's not that easy.

[Nashiktal]

Don't just toss Arcian's opinions just because he has a different view folks. He brings us some interesting points that should at least be considered.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Actually
the geth are pretty much useless. What did they offer you in ME2? A
single platform and a sniper rifle. Otherwise they just used you to
eliminate their enemies.  

Considering the Geth are trying to stay as far away from the organics as possible in order to prevent any sort of conflicts, I am of the opinion that even one platform is an extremely generous motion from them. Most organics do not know the difference between the Heretics and the True Geth, not even the Quarians. Any large offer of aid, like a ship of platforms traveling through *organic* space could very well cause a panic the Geth have been seeking to prevent in the first place.

Aside from that the Geth don't even know about sheps mission, at least not until Legion contacts them for permission to use geth Tech. They sent legion to find shep to learn more about the human who can defeat the old machines, not to fight the collectors.

An ironic statement considering we have ever only
seen an actual desire for peace (and actions taken to facilitate it) on
the part of the quarians. The geth meanwhile remain completely neutral
about the whole thing. For ever Xen there is a Koris.

There is
nothing illogical or bigoted about the quarians desires. They want their
homeworld back and they are divided about how to go about obtaining it.
Far from being impractical, people like Xen are taking a very realistic
approach to such an endeavor. As Gerrel says if they are to fight the
Reapers they need a place to shelter their noncombatants while they do
it.

You must consider how the Geth see this. The Geth may not know about the Quarians offer for peace. The last direct racial interaction between the Geth and the Quarians is the Morning War. Not only that, but Rannoch is the GETH homeworld as well. However the Geth do favor peace if such a thing can truley be achieved, as evidenced by Legion and in lore actions. 

The Geth take care of Rannoch. They keep it tidy for the potential return of the creators, and unlike the Quarians. The Geth achieved consensus about such an opinion.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 30 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

lovgreno wrote...

jacobOriley wrote...

The Garrus thread is here Garrus thread....that is the character that you prefer, if I'm not mistaken.

Garrus fans and Tali fans have always been friends and allies in the glorious fight for xenophilia, dextro bros and mocking haters. Let's stay allied please, I belive most of us are strongly pro team dextro anyway.

+72

[Link112]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Link112 wrote...

Before Koris and others attempt to make peace overtures with the Geth, I'm sure they would want a majority of the Quarian race on their side, something that isn't going to happen with Xen and Gerrel pushing for war or mind control.

What is your point? Peace has to work both ways, my friend. If only the quarians are pushing for peace it will never happen. Koris' minority will never ge the support it needs if the geth never make an open attempt to support him.

This is why it is so ridiculous when people condemn the quarians for being warmongers and bigots but give the geth a free pass. Some quarians at least have taken a public stance in support of reconciliation with the geth, even going to far as to take the geth's side during the morning war. It isn't the first tiem organics have done this for the geth (the Council took the geth's side).

It is the geth who are violent and "bigots" (more apathetic than bigoted).

No one is asking the geth to expose their bellies to the quarians, but they need to make an effort (more than just one off-hand comment from a solitary platform that isn't there as an official ambassador) if peace is ever to stand a chance. Of-course the quarians have the desire for the means to attack the geth; they'd be stupid not to. The geth aren't making any noticable effort to improve relations but they won't give up the homeworld either.

Again, why would the Geth attempt to make peace when they would be attacked if the Quarians felt they had an advantage?  A Quarian majority needs to prove that they are willing to live side-by-side with the Geth, and not try and kill them at the first sign of weakness or superior numbers.

Let's say that my people and your people live together in a country.  I get over-ambitious, and you move in to quash said over-ambitiousness.  I respond quite violently (perhaps a bit over enthusiastic in my response), and I oust you from the motherland.  Let's say that in the future, every time you've outnumbered me, you've attacked, even if I hadn't instigated in this case.  Now let's fast forward three hundred years.  My descendants want to be left alone to live in peace, as no one else likes us much anyway, and your descendants continue to attack mine if they think they have the advantage.  Let's say a small contingent of your population comes to mine wanting peace.  Perhaps my people will let in the small group if they can prove that they really want peace and aren't looking to weaken/sabotage us from the inside.  The rest of your exiled people still want war and still attack my people.  What logical sense does it make for me to allow all of you back or approach you for peace if you've shown that you will attack if you have numerical superiority?

And it may be one platform, but there are over a thousand Geth housed within it.  From a statistics standpoint, it's a decent representation of the population, seeing as how the Geth usually reach consensus on their views anyway and almost all of them feel the exact same way.

[Nashiktal]

And it may be one platform, but there are over a thousand Geth housed within it.  From a statistics standpoint, it's a decent representation of the population, seeing as how the Geth usually reach consensus on their views anyway and almost all of them feel the exact same way.

I think its safe to assume that Legion's opinion on peace is the same as the rest of the geth, granted no major changes have occured within the True Geth during his absence. (In which case he probably would have been informed when he got access to his sniper tech, but that runs into pure speculation)

[Spartanburger]

Might have been posted here before...
Notice the "Starring" list.
*happies*

[Nashiktal]

Spartanburger wrote...

Notice the "Starring" list.
*happies*

Suddenly I am happy.

[itwilleatyou]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

In ME1, she was pretty much the only introduction you had to the quarian race, so she was the only way you could learn about the quarian race. But I agree, she seemed like a walking codex.

But in ME2, she really gained a great personality. Her character really developed and her enthusiasm is really kinda contagious! (In a good way )

As for Daddy issues. Not nearly as much as some other squaddies.

In ME2 he did seem a little more of a character but not too much. Hell even his loyalty mission was just an excuse to highlight the Geth/Quarian struggle. To me I just find there's no actual character but rather a bridge the writers use to make the Quarians seem relevant to the game (their struggle isn't really relevant in ME2).