16775 réponses à ce sujet

[Satsuma]

Think about this, they've only said that there will be some kind of option for same sex relationships for both Shepards in Mass Effect 3... and based on mere speculation some people are reacting INCREDIBLY adversely and getting rather up in arms about the whole thing.

If you have a problem with the VERY CONCEPT of a decision which may or not even have been made for Tali to turn out as bisexual, REGARDLESS of the quality and believability of the writing and character development involved then... well, I don't want to play some immature homophobe name calling game, but I'd like to hear a legitimate argument against quality character development for Tali in a way that also comments on a complex social issue that human culture is still facing today that also continues to keep in with the theme of her character's romance, that of overcoming barriers that stand between Tali and what she wants in her heart.

http://twitter.com/C...4@CaseyDHudson: I'm confident that our writing team will handle LI's in #ME3 with sophistication and preserve character continuity.

Honestly, the same person that wrote Tali in both previous games is writing Tali in ME3, and it's HIS call if she will be bisexual in ME3 or not. It she is, then it will be handled well. It will not be disappointing. Fullstop. As in STOP FREAKING OUT ABOUT IT ALREADY.
Patrick Weekes KIND OF SORT OF knows a thing or two about writing Tali'Zorah's character. If you have a concern that Tali being revealed as bi in ME3 won't make sense for her character or be handled terribly, then let it rest already.

We'll see when the time comes for ME3's release, and I'm confident that no matter where Tali'Zorah's sexuality lies in the end, her character will still be the better for the further development she will have recieved.

[Captain Crash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tali is currently open to interpretation, but enough so that implementing her as s/s would still make sense.

Yep, glad so many people in here are open to it. IT does make sense and I understand why people are concerned about it, but I believe there is little to be concerned about.  It seems like it could develop naturally into something more and Bioware certainly have left an open hand to its possibility.

I created a poll for fun anyway :happy:

http://social.biowar...1&poll_id=20080

[Collider]

Since all the audio is there

It isn't though. There's only a small fragment. There's no audio for the second romance conversation (where Tali leads Shepard to the engine core) or the third looping romance conversation, or the romance scene. If you modded the game to and messed with the gender flags, you'd only get the voiced lines to start the romance and just about nothing else.

The interesting thing about the video being posted (that I made) is that the dialog there can point to Tali having feelings or just being friends with female Shepard. It's up to interpretation. Personally I saw it as a clear sign of platonic friendship, but other people will point to the fact that she still sounds a bit flustered around female Shepard.

[Formis_Sage]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Formis_Sage wrote...
I have a theory that Reapers actually created themselves.
An amazingly advanced race, driven by motives we yet cannot comprehend has chosen this way of existence.
I think the harmony those minds inside a Reaper must live in to act as one being is what some people would call a paradise. Not a place but a state of mind or soul. But it also means to give up your individuality which is something we value the most. So they decided to force us into that state.
The theory's  got some holes and is crazy but I like it

My reaction

Paradox you say... I'm lucky to have no brain to explode

Hah! I first entered this thread to you and KFD having an epic debate about the morality of the Justicar code. You can't fool me!

Seriously tho, that's a pretty deep theory. Anything can happen.

You've got better memory than I do then
The theory used to be longer but I don't remember all of it, some ideas just pop in my head and disappear right away.
And I didn't want to spam too much off-topic here :innocent:

DrRedrum wrote...
That picture made me realize, no matter
what Bioware reveals to be Tali's face, people are going to argue over
it, right down to the Eye color (In this case, purple). "It can't happen
because the reflecting light would be much darker" or whatever.

I
am starting to think that Tali may be an experience the "Blank Canvas"
effect a little too much. The only way we will all be slightly satisfied
is if they don't do it all.

People always argue even when there's nothing left to argue about.
I say, let them argue and justify their subjective truth and just enjoy Tali that will BW show us

wolfennights wrote...
every face pic of tali has looked way too human.

i dont want her to look pretty, i want her to look like an alien.

Eh... Last time I saw a Quarian skeleton the skull looked pretty human-like to me.
Maybe it seemed like that because of the light, who knows.

FsDxRAGE wrote...

Or she could just be holding it in. we will just have to see for ourselves.

Quole wrote...

The fact is; unless Tali actually says that she feels that way about femshep, its all interpretation.

These are the only reasonable types of opinions on the topic of bisexual Tali.
It seems people forget that ME is RPG and that means making your own choices.
If you don't like Tali-femShep romance then don't romance her a femShep if it will be possible in ME3.

And just like I said before about DA2 LIs where everyone were available to both male and female.
That doesn't make them bisexual as the male and female playthroughs are separated worlds.
Playing a female Hawke? Then every male companion is heterosexual and female companions are homosexual (If you romance them all to be sure of course) That's all you know for sure.
Playing a male Hawke? The opposite it true.

Same goes for Shepard and Tali and every other LI except for those who mentioned something related to their orientation. Thane for example.
As a maleShep if you romanced Tali, you know for sure that she's heterosexual but can't confirm or deny if she's homosexual.
As a femShep you can't confirm or deny any of these two possibilities.

Modifié par Formis_Sage, 16 mai 2011 - 12:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

I've never seen the big problem about it, other than that some people seems to outright hate the idea of Tali flying both ways.

If it's written well, (Which I think it will be, because Patrick is a very good writer) then I don't think it matters that much, as long as it doesn't contradicts the facts established about her character.

[Captain Crash]

Troodon80 wrote...

Since all the audio is there (and all it requires is a simple modification to the save game), why didn't they implement it already?

[...]

it wasn't implemented; meaning that they chose not to make her bi.

Come on thats a little naive isnt it.  Dont want to sound brash, but there are dozens of potential reasons why she was never a LI in ME2 for femshep.   I dont need to list them as im sure you can work out the major reasons why. Anyway I know its still speculative.   We dont know Biowares reasons so lets nip this in the bud because its opinion afterall.   But you are right, they chose not to make her a LI for femshep in ME2. 

Yet it is still irrelevant to ME3,  the potential is still there and its something that could quite easily happen.  Just because it wasnt implimented in ME2 doesnt mean it wont be in ME3.   It still seems like a natural development and something that could easily happen.    

I admit, after hearing S/S romance my first thought was Tali.  Why?  Because the potential is there and it is the most likely of all existing squadmates.     If it happens I would be quite happy.  If it doesnt, I always know she will be a close friend.  

[Satsuma]

 

Troodon80 wrote...
Since all the audio is there (and all it requires is a simple modification to the save game), why didn't they implement it already?


It's only a safe conclusion that, while Tali trusts Shepard, there's no romantic tendencies. Noting, of course, that while trust could lead to something more, if it were possible, why didn't they do it in ME2, since (as I said) the audio is already there? Why dodge and dance around the possibility?

According to the audio she's ready to fall for female Shepard, but she doesn't in-game without the savegame editor to advance the romance. This means, that, while the trust is there, the romance isn't. Therefore, if the romance isn't there, they are now changing the character.

ME2 was when Tali comes out and tells Shepard of her adoration, etc. but it doesn't go anywhere with female Shepard. This should speak for her sexuality that while the possibility was there, it wasn't implemented.

Because of orders or standards from above that could have prevented Patrick Weekes from writing the character in the direction he otherwise would have been just fine with writing for her?

It's isn't a safe conclusion, because Tali has always excepted that she was attracted to men and might have never even once considered before being attracted to a woman. The idea of that kind of attraction to her being foreign is FAR AND AWAY enough to say that she wouldn't immediately reciprocate the same advances that FemShep made compared to how she reacted to MaleShep.

It was ONCE AGAIN not possible because they probably still had a NO FULL Love interest that is S/S of any kind for Shepard rule. That means that while the trust is there, the romance still could be there regardless of what you would prefer. Therefore, Patrick would not be changing her character.

Tali comes out and tells Shepard of her adoration, and there could be considered chemistry there between the two voice actors regardless of it actually going anywhere or not, which lends credence to the concept that she is simply still trying to compute if she is actually interested in Femshep or just confused because of everything going on around them, because her lack of reciprocation was simply that of avoiding the topic rather than saying a firm and defining "No, I'm DEFINITELY not bisexual and will never turn out to be because it's impossible." 

Thus, the lack of implementation of a BI Tali in ME2 does not speak for her sexuality because while the possibility was there, there could have been any number of reasons for it not being implemented besides it being out of character for her.

[Capt_Flashheart]

SilentNukee wrote...

Tali doesn't say her sexual preferences.

She doesn't need to...



And I certainly don't remember Tali giving FemShep this "action".

Modifié par Capt_Flashheart, 16 mai 2011 - 12:14 .

[Evil_Sarevok]

Personally I dont care about such things but it does annoy me when characters try and dry hump your leg after a few conversations trying to either 'view' their dialogue or trying to find out bits about their character.

I had this issue in the first dragon age too, I took on Morrigan, tried to get to know Zevran, who tried it on, and then got to know Leliana who also tried to dry hump my leg just for getting to know her then suddenly Morrigan goes bat**** and I have to tell the other two 'it' cant happen when nothing happened, so utterly pointless and badly designed.

I'd rather have characters than you just 'friend' rather than EVERY character swinging both ways and creating a ****storm just for having a chat, or like the old posts for 'phantom' romances showing they essentially bug out from nothing.

Sometimes the romances just get in the way and become annoying, so I'd rather not have every character swing both ways for that reason.

I'm normally friendly to Garrus, if he suddenly turned Bi and caused all sorts of issues I'd just probably ragequit due to honestly getting bored with all the issues with romances, there needs to be a point where everyone just leave you alone knowing that you're happy with who you choose, and dont make insinuations that you want to cheat.

I mean yeah you can shut them down but that normally causes a rift between characters.

Modifié par Evil_Sarevok, 16 mai 2011 - 12:26 .

[Troodon80]

Collider wrote...

The interesting thing about the video being posted (that I made) is that the dialog there can point to Tali having feelings or just being friends with female Shepard. It's up to interpretation. Personally I saw it as a clear sign of platonic friendship, but other people will point to the fact that she still sounds a bit flustered around female Shepard.

This is pretty much the way I saw it too. When she says about linking suits, I imidiately though about Tali's mother and Shala linking suits. (Not to sound sarcastic or rude, but)Does this mean that those two were bi too?

Just because Tali says she would link suits with female Shepard, doesn't mean that she's in any way romantic towards female Shepard.

It seems people forget that ME is RPG and that means making your own choices.

But BioWare limited that exact choice in ME2 with regards to S/S. This is what I'm getting at. Why didn't they implement that very choice in ME2 when they had the option of doing so? (And I shouldn't have to say it, but I will anyway; I'm talking specifically about not using a save game editor.)

I've never seen the big problem about it, other than that some people seems to outright hate the idea of Tali flying both ways.

If it's written well, (Which I think it will be, because Patrick is a very good writer) then I don't think it matters that much, as long as it doesn't contradicts the facts established about her character.

I'm never going to play as a female Shepard, so it doesn't affect me, but I hate that they might change a character so drastically. Or that people are arguing that she is and that is makes so much sense, especially since it's already safe to say that there's nothing really there to indicate that she is (Or, in fairness, that she isn't; other than not actually being able to romance her in ME2).

[Collider]

This is pretty much the way I saw it too. When she says about linking suits, I imidiately though about Tali's mother and Shala linking suits. (Not to sound sarcastic or rude, but)Does this mean that those two were bi too?

Just because Tali says she would link suits with female Shepard, doesn't mean that she's in any way romantic towards female Shepard.

This is why if they do allow for female Shepards to romance Tali in ME3, I would like the platonic friendship with her that's already been (possibly, depending on how your Shepard has acted) established in ME2 to continue and continue in a platonic fashion unless the player specifically wants romance to come into play.

But BioWare limited that exact choice in ME2 with regards to S/S. This is what I'm getting at. Why didn't they implement that very choice in ME2 when they had the option of doing so? (And I shouldn't have to say it, but I will anyway; I'm talking specifically about not using a save game editor.)

There could be any number of reasons, among them being time restraints, resource restraints, possibly the higher ups didn't want it at the time. I wouldn't be surprised, considering the dodging some Mass Effect developers have been doing regarding whether female Shepard's romance with Liara is actually "lesbian." Casey Hudson's most recent statement on it is that the romance is either "asexual" (which an interestingly incorrect way of saying it) or pan/omnisexual. There seems to be some reluctance over admitting that it's F/F at the end of the day.

[Homebound]

ive always thought tali was like the bi-curious collegegirl on campus. She likes the dudes, but she wonders what its like on the other side.

[Pride Demon]

I'm unsure about my opinion on the matter of a bi Tali...
I didn't like the way the "canon" baldur's gate book made Imoen a lesbian for instance, it just seemed to be totally unlike what I saw in the game, though if a character is presented as such since the beginning and the thing is done tastefully I have no problem with romances being bi (Zevran and especially Leliana are good examples)...

In the end I'll just abstain from judgement till we actually know what's what...

Just one thing however...
Kelly is incredibly good at reading people, even other species (that's her job). If you are a Male!Shep, as soon as you recruit Tali she immediately tells you she feels simple friendship isn't exactly what Tali wants your relationship with her to be, hinting she may want to be more... This piece of dialogue is not present for a Fem!Shep...

So, is the dialogue there and simply not trigged for Fem!Sheps or it actually is not present? Because if it's the latter case that's a good hint towards a not bi Tali... Or at the fact Kelly isn't a good shrink, which basically makes her char pointless, given she is there for the sole reason to monitor the crew... XD

[Formis_Sage]

Troodon80 wrote...

It seems people forget that ME is RPG and that means making your own choices.

But BioWare limited that exact choice in ME2 with regards to S/S. This is what I'm getting at. Why didn't they implement that very choice in ME2 when they had the option of doing so? (And I shouldn't have to say it, but I will anyway; I'm talking specifically about not using a save game editor.)

I'm not using any editor or mod, don't worry.
They aparently considered the thought of femShep romance because some audio files can be found but why they decided to not implement it is in their heads. They surely had some reason.
What I was trying to say is that if Tali will be potential LI for femShep in ME3, I don't know where's the problem with that. Since you can make your own decisions that possibility doesn't have to exist in your playthrough if you don't want to. And I doub't BW would force every femShep to suddenly romance Tali so it'll be completely in players' hands.

Modifié par Formis_Sage, 16 mai 2011 - 12:50 .

[Homebound]

considering tal-tal wears a mask, id say kelly-kelly knows what she's doing. although bicurious isnt the same as bisexual. I think tali's at the age where shes exploring herself and thats where the cut femshep romance content came from.

[Collider]

What Kelly says about Tali has no gender pronouns recognizing Shepard's gender so far as I know, so it's not really a matter of being "there" or not. It just doesn't trigger for female Shepard.

Interestingly though, I've just looked and there is some recorded dialog for female Shepard where she tells Kelly that "I've always thought there was some chemistry there" about Tali.

[Troodon80]

Collider wrote...

This is why if they do allow for female Shepards to romance Tali in ME3, I would like the platonic friendship with her that's already been (possibly, depending on how your Shepard has acted) established in ME2 to continue and continue in a platonic fashion unless the player specifically wants romance to come into play.


There could be any number of reasons, among them being time restraints, resource restraints, possibly the higher ups didn't want it at the time. I wouldn't be surprised, considering the dodging some Mass Effect developers have been doing regarding whether female Shepard's romance with Liara is actually "lesbian." Casey Hudson's most recent statement on it is that the romance is either "asexual" (which an interestingly incorrect way of saying it) or pan/omnisexual. There seems to be some reluctance over admitting that it's F/F at the end of the day.

I think (as a matter of personal opinion, of course) the 'romance' should be platonic for female Shepard, thereby allowing the friendship to be full and all that.

But this is interesting; the very people (not aimed at you Collider, or Captain Crash) who are saying that people like me and quite a few others should 'not take the game so seriously' want ME3 to basically be a S/S dating sim apparently.

We dont know Bioware's reasons so lets nip this in the bud because its opinion afterall.

Heh, alright, lets let this opinionated discussion end. I don't want to annoy people with it.

I'm not against S/S romances, I'd just prefer that they leave existing characters alone as they currently are.

Modifié par Troodon80, 16 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Pride Demon]

Collider wrote...

What Kelly says about Tali has no gender pronouns recognizing Shepard's gender so far as I know, so it's not really a matter of being "there" or not. It just doesn't trigger for female Shepard.

Interestingly though, I've just looked and there is some recorded dialog for female Shepard where she tells Kelly that "I've always thought there was some chemistry there" about Tali.

Of course, I was referring to Shep's response more than to Kelly actual dialogue... I was just curious...
Thanks for answering my question Collider...

Still, I'll abstain from saying if I like this (possible) development or not till we know what's what, it all turns around how they'll handle it mainly... XD

[Goat_Shepard]

ADLegend21 wrote...
ORLy, cuz Virmire doesn't count. since you're just meeting up with her if she's with the Salarians and getting her back to the ship after she's wounded if she's with the bomb.

That's the definition of damsel in distress.

She's also holdingher own against the Geth on Eden prime when she joins up with Shepard on Eden Prime

She's fleeing from 2 assault drones while 2 geth are off in the distance caressing a human preparing him for the spikes. Pretty sad.

and it's assumed she fights her way to shepard on Horizon. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png

She was one of the 25% of colonists who the collectors mercifully didn't kidnap. She's lucky Shepard showed up just like Tali was

Damsel's don't go out like badasses. Tali threw a grenade and rolled into cover and did nothing while Shepard killed said Mercs with Ashley/Kaidan/Garrus/Wrex. Anyone that's not an infant can throw grenades well but "you've seen what I can do in the alley commander" was enough to get Udina to put he on my crew.

Instead of running away from the mercs in the alley, Tali engaged them in 1 vs 3 combat. She did not ask you to save her. That was pretty badass albeit naive.

Now if she'd busted out a shotgun and pumped some suckers full of high velocity lead slugs THEN I'd be impressed.

She did.

She couldn't keep her team in line on Freedoms Progress and they betray her not 1 minute after she agrees to work with Shepard, Jacob, and Miranda.

Because Cerberus showed up and caused everyone to panic. Miranda also did a good job installing mistrust in the quarians with her little comment. Shepard said he wanted to help. I don't hold anything against Tali for the fact that she couldn't control a squad of lunatics like Praza.

I won't begrudge her getting her team killed in Geth space, when she was the only one important on that mission anyway. I'll be waiting for your return.

You expected Tali to save a science team from a geth drop ship on a mission the Admiralty administered? And there's something you should know, Tali was not in distress then either, she was prepared to die to get that information, Shepard showed up on his own accord.

You're a pretty effective troll, AD

ADLegend21 wrote...
Seems canon cuz Bioware put it in there. Anythign that happens in game is canon Modds or not. Bioware took the
time to record the dialogue soit's canon alright. Tali seemedto think ti was canon too.../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png

Mods =/= canon. You realize you're inadvertently hurting your arguments by trolling, right?

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 16 mai 2011 - 01:02 .

[Goat_Shepard]

Captain Crash wrote...

Anyway heres another fact to jog the mind.  If Tali Loves Shepard because of his personality and deeds then
why is gender that important?

I know, why is it important? As Sians pointed out, once the species line is crossed, the gender crossing seems minor in comparison, right? So why does it determine which gender can romance Tali? The only logical conclusion is that Tali doesn't like females in that way. The LotSB dossier only proves that she likes humans. If more information is presented, it can be realistically implemented.

After all Shepard does the same actions regardless of gender. 

By that reasoning, every alien should be bisexual, and the humans as well if you look deep into the romances.
It's all preference. I find the DA2's approach to be unrealistic: not everyone is bi, that's just how it works even in a fantasy setting(because they write the characters to be realistically believable). I understand the mechanical reasoning behind the characters of DA2's Hawke-o-sexuality, but I don't prefer it.  Regardless of what happens, if it is well-written, then nobody can complain.

Formis_Sage wrote...
And just like I said before about DA2 LIs where everyone were available to both male and female.

That doesn't make them bisexual as the male and female playthroughs are separated worlds.

Playing a female Hawke? Then every male companion is heterosexual and female companions are homosexual (If you romance them all to be sure of course)
That's all you know for sure.

Playing a male Hawke? The opposite it true.

You're asking people not to metagame. It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous!

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 16 mai 2011 - 01:05 .

[Troodon80]

Formis_Sage wrote...

I'm not using any editor or mod, don't worry.
They aparently considered the thought of femShep romance because some audio files can be found but why they decided to not implement it is in their heads. They surely had some reason.
What I was trying to say is that if Tali will be potential LI for femShep in ME3, I don't know where's the problem with that. Since you can make your own decisions that possibility doesn't have to exist in your playthrough if you don't want to. And I doub't BW would force every femShep to suddenly romance Tali so it'll be completely in players' hands.

I know, I've been through all 36,000+ audio files ((And then some for the DLC (which was tedious beyond belief, yeah, I have no life, oh joy is me)).

I would have assumed that any romance would be continued from a platonic friendship from ME2 to ME3.

Activating some unseen romance between games just doesn't seem right.

But enough, I said I'd let it drop.

[Homebound]

anyways..back to tali.

[Formis_Sage]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Formis_Sage wrote...
And just like I said before about DA2 LIs where everyone were available to both male and female.

That doesn't make them bisexual as the male and female playthroughs are separated worlds.

Playing a female Hawke? Then every male companion is heterosexual and female companions are homosexual (If you romance them all to be sure of course)
That's all you know for sure.

Playing a male Hawke? The opposite it true.

You're asking people not to metagame. It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous!

What can I say, I'm a terrible person :innocent:
That doesn't change the fact it's true.
It's either male or female, can't be both (Not in ME's case) and the charater development depends on that.

Only because in one reality the character is heterosexual and different reality is homosexual, you can't immediately assume he/she is bisexual in each of these realities until he/she shows that kind of affection to both genders in each of them.

Modifié par Formis_Sage, 16 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[Zall]

Tali is not the right person to be in command, for she neither radiates authority or confidence during her times as a leader, nor can I imagine her shouting orders during a battle. As a subordinate, on the other hand, she would be an immense help on account of being a great techincian. Same is with Mordin. Genius doctor, but squishy and not much of a leader, but the thing is - nobody cares about his flaws.

Tali was not in distress then either, she was prepared to die to get that information, Shepard showed up on his own accord.

Preparing oneself to die sounds pretty much like distress to me...

[Homebound]

usually when someone cuts something out of a game, it means they dont want it to be part of the game in the first place. the femshep/tali romance was removed. Not only was it removed, it was removed with the desire to remove it from the game. Since it is not part of the game, it is just garbage data that we are sifting through.