16775 réponses à ce sujet

[Troodon80]

@ "I think it's obvious what I am."

Actually the Panda has me confused.

Heh, that's done deliberately. That and the widdle panda is adorable and fuzzy. Just kidding.

But what I'm getting at, is that people don't usually announce their sexuality. You know "actions speak louder than words". That sort of thing. So bolstering up non-existing evidence with something that is almost never done in real life scenarios is largely irrelevant and doesn't add to the discussion.

XX55XX wrote...

*Snip*

I agree, very much.

Edit: Top (Since the picture I wanted to put here is a little too big, here's linked thumb instead):

Modifié par Troodon80, 20 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[AnimaTempli101]

It is indeed adorable, so much so it keeps on distracting me from writing Varren-slaying with naught more than a pointy stick in my latest chapter.

EDIT: New page, new discussion? This really isn't going anywhere.

Modifié par AnimaTempli101, 20 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[T.Attwood]

Collider wrote...

One of the reasons why I don't agree with the wounded/dying Tali shows her face approach is that Tali's face is no longer significant to Shepard himself. He's already seen it. A scene where Tali takes off her mask as she is dying or some such would be far more significant if Shepard hadn't already seen her face...but he has.

ME2 was their opportunity for a dramatic reveal and that window is passed now. I'm not saying that they shouldn't do a nice scene for when her face is revealed to the player, but at this point (Shepard's already seen face in ME2) I don't think it would warrant that much drama.

True. However, my point is that while Shepard himself has seen her face, the player hasn't. Taking into account the large amount of interest regarding what Tali looks like, and the fact that it seems to have been building since the release of the first game, I thought it would be good for Bioware to do something interesting and (perhaps) take a more dramatic route. After all, if it were done in a Blasé way, this interesting and significant part of the game may end up being an anti-climax.

The main point I was attempting to make, is the fans 'reaction' to how Tali actually looks, and how Bioware are working on coming up with something favourable, without alienating fans. Bioware must have thought long and hard about what to do with her appearance under the helmet. There will be those who like the result, and those who don't. My point is, what if there was a way to 'present' the result in such a way, that removes the focus on 'how' she actually looks, (and downplay's the resulting 'judgement' about Tali's appearance), by presenting it in a dramatic scene?

[AnimaTempli101]

@ T.Attwood

Sorry, nice idea, but it just wouldn't work. People are focussed on aestethics (s.p) these days (at least those who avidly want to see Tali's face) and if they saw something they didn't like they'd still complain. Hell, maybe they'd complain more for it ruining that scene.

[Collider]

My point is, what if there was a way to 'present' the result in such a way, that removes the focus on 'how' she actually looks, (and downplay's the resulting 'judgement' about Tali's appearance), by presenting it in a dramatic scene?

To be honest. There are always going to be people who have a certain expectation about what she looks like, or a certain desire about what she looks like. If they show her face to any notable degree, there are going to be people disappointed, upset, blah blah, etc etc.

I would argue that you could say it's their own problem if they got too attached with one fan depiction of her face. There's a saying that in trying to please everyone, you may very well end up pleasing no one. I think a great number of fans of her character will be reasonably happy with whatever they come up with, and those who are so fixated on whether her face is beautiful or matches their expectations are not a great loss.

[Troodon80]

I would argue that you could say it's their own problem if they got too attached with one fan depiction of her face. There's a saying that in trying to please everyone, you may very well end up pleasing no one.

This is the problem, and no matter what BioWare comes up with, someone will complain profusely that it wasn't up to their expectations.

I think the general consensus is that most people in this thread, right now, don't particularly care what she looks like. Since you can't see her face, or what she looks like in general under the suit, the only real appeal is the personality.

And, to be honest, anyone who is 'put off' by what she looks like is probably only there for looks, and not for who she actually is.

[absolutegus]

Still irks me whenever I watch the romance scene and Shepard (the person I'm supposed to be), sees her face and I don't. Very immersion breaking.

Tali is not a fan creation, she belongs to Bioware. The fans can imagine what she looks like, but Bioware shouldn't keep her face concealed just because what appears to be a minority of fans need to pretend she looks exactly the way they want or they won't be happy. That just seems shallow to me and makes me wonder if they like Tali for the right reasons.

I would have been okay with them keeping her concealed if they hadn't shown her face to Shepard, but now that Shepard has seen her face I'm going to be rather bothered if they don't show her to the audience. Really, either we should have already seen her or Shepard should not have.

Modifié par absolutegus, 20 mai 2011 - 04:10 .

[ADLegend21]

Captain Crash wrote...

Troodon80 wrote...

I don't really see any irony, I wasn't one of the people who demanded that she be included as a romance option. If you see the post above yours, I've already mentioned that.

Thats fine, but if your not concerned she wasn't included as a romance option to begin with. Its a bit hypocritical to now demand she remain as she is.   

this. She wasn't the least bit interested in Shepard at all in the first game, but people still wanted her to be romanceable and they got it. Now that she's romanceable to one Shepard and fans want her to be with both Shepard's suddenly it's bad to ruin her "established" character. Yet she still mentions that she'd liketo share suits with femshep, the most intimate thing you can do with a quarian.

[Troodon80]

That's fine, but if your not concerned she wasn't included as a romance option to begin with its a bit hypocritical to now demand she remain as she is.

Not really. As far as the majority can see, her character is established in ME2, and that's what I, and quite a few other people, want to stay as it is.

How about I reverse the question you keep asking. Show us proof that Tali isnt Bi? Or show us proof she "is what she is" and wont ever consider it?

Fine, I'll just post the video you keep posting as the sole evidence for your argument.

Right, this is, basically put, the point where female Shepard doesn't get the romance option and male Shepard does. That video is as much your proof as it is mine, and doesn't help your argument.

There is very little to suggest that Tali is, was intended to be, or will be a romance option for female Shepard. And plenty to suggest that she wouldn't be; including the cut audio and that video. While it's open to interpretation, it's more open to interpretation in one direction than another.

Simply put, it didn't happen for female Shepard's, the audio isn't used in-game under normal means, and she only show a romantic interest in male Shepard; while, yes, she does show a large amount of trust towards female Shepard, this doesn't mean she wants a romance.

Using the same piece of audio in response for female Shepard as was used for male Shepard could, and can, very well be chalked up to resource limitations; i.e. having to record all new dialogue, and limitations on space (disc space, HDD space, etc), etc. If they recorded all new dialogue instead of reusing some other piece, then it means more time, more money, and more space, this applies to all characters. This is more apparent with models and textures than dialogue, but it stands to reason why they'd reuse something they already have.

That, and, as it has been said, the actual cut dialogue may have been recorded and then BioWare decided that they didn't want it after all. Or it may have been due to time restraints, which seems unlikely since they could have postponed the release just like they have with ME3, so that makes little sense.

As for linking suits, it's already been said before, this doesn't have to mean anything romantic. It can mean a gesture of trust rather than some romantic inclination.

While there's no actual proof, there's plenty of examples to the contrary than there is for you argument.

Exactly! So we are asking for Bioware to give us a choice.

Well, then say it once, and have done with it or take it to the S/S thread, make a poll or two and PM the devs, but don't keep saying it until the point where you annoy people.

Modifié par Troodon80, 20 mai 2011 - 04:25 .

[AnimaTempli101]

Seriously people. THis conversation? It's going nowhere and fast.

[Destroy Raiden_]

When Tali says to fshep she hasn't trusted anyone enough to link suits but she hints she might trust fshep for such doesn't mean she's bi. Rann linked suits with her mom as a sign of extreme friendship the Quarian equivalent to BBFs she exposed herself again to the open air when Tali was born so willingness to open your mask doesn't mean she's bi. Now with Mshep that same conversation takes place with one large difference she tells him its intimate and if you link suits with a male in her culture it is an intimate gesture more so then a girl/girl version.

I doubt Rann would've been so casual if she was in a s/s relationship to Tali and with her dad's death and infront of outsiders to boot. Rann thought of the gesture as purely friendship no that her and Tali's mom where lovers.

I really like the fact that Tali is with Mshep I wouldn't feel the same about her if she broke the friend status with fshep and decided to ask her for more. Tali is hetro and should remain that way for ME3. Get a new Quarian for ME3 who is a militant one to be bi for ME3 if you need that Quarian option that I would be fine with so long as I can have this new Quarian and Tali on the ship or excluded the new one and only have Tali on the ship or vis versa.

[Troodon80]

Seriously people. This conversation? It's going nowhere and fast.

Tell me about it.

I think this thread needs more Tali:

[Influ]

Troodon80 wrote...

That's fine, but if your not concerned she wasn't included as a romance option to begin with its a bit hypocritical to now demand she remain as she is.

Not really. As far as the majority can see, her character is established in ME2, and that's what I, and quite a few other people, want to stay as it is.

So, you and quite a few people have the opinion that Tali's character was established in ME2. I'm sure there are people that think her character was established in ME1. Opinions. They can still add to her character in ME3.

In my opinion, her sexual orientation is not written in stone. No conclusive evidence about it whatsoever. Sure, it might be odd if she's romanceable by femshep in ME3, while she was not in ME2. But not any more than the fact she was not a LI option in the first game for either gender.

[ADLegend21]

Influ wrote...

Troodon80 wrote...

That's fine, but if your not concerned she wasn't included as a romance option to begin with its a bit hypocritical to now demand she remain as she is.

Not really. As far as the majority can see, her character is established in ME2, and that's what I, and quite a few other people, want to stay as it is.

So, you and quite a few people have the opinion that Tali's character was established in ME2. I'm sure there are people that think her character was established in ME1. Opinions. They can still add to her character in ME3.

In my opinion, her sexual orientation is not written in stone. No conclusive evidence about it whatsoever. Sure, it might be odd if she's romanceable by femshep in ME3, while she was not in ME2. But not any more than the fact she was not a LI option in the first game for either gender.

Agreed. Characters are only established when the story is over and This story isn't over which gives the characters more room to growlike finding out that in the face of war that they have feelings for Commander shepard regardless of their gender.

[Troodon80]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

When Tali says to fshep she hasn't trusted anyone enough to link suits but she hints she might trust fshep for such doesn't mean she's bi. Rann linked suits with her mom as a sign of extreme friendship the Quarian equivalent to BBFs she exposed herself again to the open air when Tali was born so willingness to open your mask doesn't mean she's bi. Now with Mshep that same conversation takes place with one large difference she tells him its intimate and if you link suits with a male in her culture it is an intimate gesture more so then a girl/girl version.

I doubt Rann would've been so casual if she was in a s/s relationship to Tali and with her dad's death and infront of outsiders to boot. Rann thought of the gesture as purely friendship no that her and Tali's mom where lovers.

I really like the fact that Tali is with Mshep I wouldn't feel the same about her if she broke the friend status with fshep and decided to ask her for more. Tali is hetro and should remain that way for ME3. Get a new Quarian for ME3 who is a militant one to be bi for ME3 if you need that Quarian option that I would be fine with so long as I can have this new Quarian and Tali on the ship or excluded the new one and only have Tali on the ship or vis versa.

I so very much agree.

And as I have said before, I'm not against having bisexuals in the game. But I do question the reason why people can't simply live with Tali as a friend. I'd be able to live with that option if that was the only one they gave male Shepard in ME2, as I've already said.

[Capt_Flashheart]

Captain Crash wrote...


 Why does the third game have to round off old romances and not start new ones?    Bioware stated they will have new LI already and potentially existing ones.   Just because its new doesnt make it less meaningfull.

Then why can't you just stop with that? Why must you continue to push for retconing Tali when you're already getting other meaningful s/s romances? If you'd just leave the old LI's alone practically half of all the opposition to s/s romances would join the s/s supporters against the people who don't want any bi romances at all.

Male Sheps had a platonic a meaningful friendship with her in ME1. Then due to feedback Bioware took that platonic relationship and made it a romance in ME2.   So why should Bioware stop there just for you?

Crash, there's a huge difference in the feedback this time. There are more people against changing the sexuality of old LI's (including Tali) than there are supporting it, unlike last time where there was unanimous support for Tali being a romance option in ME2. Many of the people against retconing were the ones who asked for a Tali romance in the first place. 
The same fans who devoted hundreds of thousands of posts and many hours of their lives towards Tali over the last year and a half since the release of ME2. The fans who wrote countless fanfictions about her, discussed her character endlessly into the night, and shared hundreds of fanarts between each other. These acts of appreciation were done for a character which, over this year and a half, was not bisexual. Now they hear that the character they know so intimately could, in effect, not be the Tali they fell in love with? How could they possibly object to that? 

...you agree its open to interpretation.  You can see why people are construed to think theres something more to it, even if you dont agree. Then straight away you ask for proof knowing there is none.  There are however a lot of hypotheticals which show potential:  Tali tone with femshep can be seen as flirty.  Tali clearly adores Shepard of either gender. 

The Washinton monument can be interpreted a symbol of Amerian freedom. It can also be seen as a giant ****.  That doesn't meant that's what its architects saw it as. In fact it's fairly obvious they didn't mean that.
Interpret. Misinterpret. Which do you think you're doing by viewing awkward dialogue as suggestive in a situation that doesn't progress into romance?

Tali never states at any point her sexuality.

Correct, she didn't state it. She screamed it by being romanceable by ManShep and not FemShep. It's a case of actions speaking louder than words. It's enough to establish beond reasonable doubt that Tali prefers men over women. It's all the proof we'll ever need.

 Afterall Mass Effect is about choice.

It's about Shepard's choices. You can choose your sexuality, but not another person's alignment. What's that chat they used to say at mardi gras, "We're gay, get over it"?
That goes both ways. Tali is straight, get over it.

[AngelicMachinery]

Our obvious goal is to make Tali bi so she eventually leaves all male Shepherds for asari, OBVIOUSLY.

[AnimaTempli101]

jdaelrae/hydfh/kla'dprya'prkysdf;vsdryhjkal

(That was me bashing my head against my keyboard because of people still having a conversation that will never end due to A. The lack of evidence for either side B. The fact neither side will give ground. Just give it up everyone.)

[Influ]

Troodon80 wrote...
But I do question the reason why people can't simply live with Tali as a friend. I'd be able to live with that option if that was the only one they gave male Shepard in ME2, as I've already said.

Well, okay. Let's reverse the question again. Why couldn't you live with the option of Tali being a bisexual LI in ME3? I know I'm fine with it if she is or isn't. She has been one of my favourite characters since ME1 and even more so in ME2. I really don't care which way they go, if it's written well.

[AngelicMachinery]

Influ wrote...

Troodon80 wrote...
But I do question the reason why people can't simply live with Tali as a friend. I'd be able to live with that option if that was the only one they gave male Shepard in ME2, as I've already said.

Well, okay. Let's reverse the question again. Why couldn't you live with the option of Tali being a bisexual LI in ME3? I know I'm fine with it if she is or isn't. She has been one of my favourite characters since ME1 and even more so in ME2. I really don't care which way they go, if it's written well.

Truthfully, people already romancing Tali won't even notice a change.  It's not like she can flirt with femmeshep when she doesn't exist in your playthrough and as we all know squad mates ignore the fact that the others exist so you won't have to worry about her hooking up with Samara/Liara/Ashley/etc behind your back.  

[Troodon80]

(That was me bashing my head against my keyboard because of people still having a conversation that will never end due to A. The lack of evidence for either side B. The fact neither side will give ground. Just give it up everyone.)

Have a look at my avatar, and all will be calm.

Failing that, more Tali:

[ADLegend21]

Capt_Flashheart wrote...

Then why can't you just stop with that? Why must you continue to push for retconing Tali when you're already getting other meaningful s/s romances? 
. Many of the people against retconing were the ones who asked for a Tali romance in the first place. 
The same fans who devoted hundreds of thousands of posts and many hours of their lives towards Tali over the last year and a half since the release of ME2. The fans who wrote countless fanfictions about her, discussed her character endlessly into the night, and shared hundreds of fanarts between each other. These acts of appreciation were done for a character which, over this year and a half, was not bisexual. Now they hear that the character they know so intimately could, in effect, not be the Tali they fell in love with? How could they possibly object to that?

Correct, she didn't state it. She screamed it by being romanceable by ManShep and not FemShep. It's a case of actions speaking louder than words. It's enough to establish beond reasonable doubt that Tali prefers men over women. It's all the proof we'll ever need

It's about Shepard's choices. You can choose your sexuality, but not another person's alignment. What's that chat they used to say at mardi gras, "We're gay, get over it"?
That goes both ways. Tali is straight, get over it.

There are fans who did EVERYTHING the Tali fans did since Game one in support of same sex romance, thousands upon thousands of posts, hours of lives, fanfictions, etc. But one thing  they didn't do was go around bashing others and gettign their trhead's closed due to massive flame wars, forgotten about that have you? So You're saying that since it was "for a charcter that wasn't bisexual" you'll disown Tali and kick her out of the captains Cabin in ME3 if on some other persons game disc she's with a  femshep?

you might as well do so since she's with other dudesheps anyway since you're obviously not willing to "share" her. Tali's Dossier and the recording of Same Sex dialogue in Every Mass Effect game betrays her "screaming" that she's only heterosexual by being with male shep. She still has a human fetish and wants to link suits with Shepard regardless of gender. She's 24-25 in Me2 and that's hardly an Age when everything about a person is set in stone. She's growing as an adult quarian and as a woman so who are you to e mad if she discovers that in some other universe that has nothing to do with yours she decides to pursue romance with a female commander Shepard? (Also, please don't pick apart this post like crash's, it makes it hard to quote. Thank you.)

[ADLegend21]

rynluna wrote...

Can anyone tell me how Tali is retconned into being bi if she never romances anyone in a FemShep playthrough?  Also, how is she retconned into being bisexual in ME3 if she romanced MaleShep in ME2?  Are you guys afraid that even if she's in a relationship with you, she'll tell you her true bicurious feelings?  If she does end up being available to FemShep, are you guys going to have a hard time sharing this forum with a bunch of new romance fans?

You'd think they'd like the addition of new fans? It'd make Tali more popular than she already is, so arguing against it seems counter productive. Along with her bisexuality with Femshep I'd like to see Tali at least admit that her people wronged the geth, you'd think working with Legion would help her see the error of her way of thinking in ME1 but....no growth sadly.