16775 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

Oh.

The way you worded that phrase, it sounded like you were literally there.

My bad.

[Bright_Ops]

You want to know what the fun thing is?

Everything Shepard did was all perfectly legal and honest, for the given value of honesty.

After all, he didn't exactly lie. He was completely truthful the whole time. He just proved his point before he needed to bring forth physical proof.

[Someone With Mass]

Bah. Swallow your pride for once.

[MadMapper]

*turns cloaking device off*

I won't be the one to stop you guys from talking - because talking is good - but you guys are forgetting about the Holy Tradition of the Tali Picture and this is bad!



*turns cloaking device on*

[Spartanburger]

MadMapper wrote...

*turns cloaking device off*

I won't be the one to stop you guys from talking - because talking is good - but you guys are forgetting about the Holy Tradition of the Tali Picture and this is bad!



*turns cloaking device on*

So be it.
Half of the Tron-Tali project I paused work on a while back

Modifié par Spartanburger, 21 mai 2011 - 05:15 .

[Troodon80]

MadMapper wrote...

*turns cloaking device off*

I won't be the one to stop you guys from talking - because talking is good - but you guys are forgetting about the Holy Tradition of the Tali Picture and this is bad!



*turns cloaking device on*

Not me.

I've been adding pictures where I can... interspersed through all the back and forth..

Speaking of which, one made by you (Because I think it's very good):


Edit: dun goof'd

Modifié par Troodon80, 21 mai 2011 - 05:20 .

[Influ]

Troodon80 wrote...

I said I was fine with it whichever direction they went. Jeez!

And yet you, and the others, keep arguing about it. So clearly you're not fine with it. If you were fine with it, you'd look at the comments already in the thread and just say, "fine, fine, you don't want Tali to be (x)... lets move onto a different topic" as I've tried this in the past and yet this pointless and endless debate continues.

Still, I'm not going to hang myself if she won't be, but it kinda seems the ones arguing against it might...

Well, sure, I think you might be right; Let's take a look at this:
*snipped*

Why are you quoting a bunch of other people? I can't speak for other people.

I have in no point dismissed any of your opinions or reasonings in the argument. I can understand both sides and only voiced my own opinion on the matter. I've only continued, because you keep contradicting me completely pointlessly. Try to work out that arrogant attitude and stop dismissing other peoples differing opinions. Then be amazed how the arguments suddenly stop.

And I'm sorry, I know you people are tired of this topic. I just can't appreciate being raged upon for voicing my opinion.


And just so this post won't consist entirely of my irritated ramblings, here's a random Tali.

[Gust4v]

Spartanburger wrote...

So be it.
Half of the Tron-Tali project I paused work on a while back

*snip*

Wow, that looks very good.

[Troodon80]

I have in no point dismissed any of your opinions or reasonings in the argument.

Uh huh. Right.

Okay, I'll quote this, just in case you don't "remember posting it":

Influ wrote...

I'm not going to hang myself if she won't be, but it kinda seems the ones arguing against it might...

Right. Not dismissive in the least.

I can understand both sides and only voiced my own opinion on the matter.

Uh, okay, so that's why you decided to get involved in the first place. To voice you opinion, and thereafter decided to bash those who actually dared oppose a bi Tali?

Please. Leave the topic alone.

Try to work out that arrogant attitude and stop dismissing other peoples differing opinions.

It's not arrogant to look at what is actually in the game. So don't start with personal attacks.

Then be amazed how the arguments suddenly stop.

Someone always has to bring up an old topic when it's done and dusted. *Cough*.

And I'm sorry, I know you people are tired of this topic. I just can't appreciate being raged upon for voicing my opinion.

First, you should have left the topic alone, where it was. Second, it wasn't rage, just pointing out that the other side is equally at "fault" for the "those against it might hang themselves" thing you so graciously decided to add. And third, please leave the topic alone. It's been finished for quite a few hours.

Here, have a Tali:

[Zulmoka531]

I'm just gonna leave this quote here:

jeweledleah wrote...
depends on how its handled. I mentioned it before on this thread, but in ME1 Kaidan and Ash are in love with oposite sex Shepard with the slightest encouragement (or no encouragement at all, depending on how you see it) they get enfatuated starting with Eden prime and from then on feelings only get stronger. all you have to do is be nice to them. but they don't feel the same way about same sex Shepard - there's nothing but friendship and/or respect there. so if they show it as them hiding those feelings for so long, even though I have seen them as completely incapable of hiding their atraction even despite the regs? to me that would be changing their character. but if its handled as if your Shepard was pining and just now has a choice to see if he/she can get them to reciprocate (or even if the Shepard just now sees them as more then just a friend and relationship starts from there) - then it won't change their character one bit, only some of the Shepards relationship with them

to quote a tweet from Casey Hudson

BablAqUA
Patrik Mysterious

@CaseyDHudson Is Retribution canon? Did it happened if Anderson is councilor and I destroyed collectors base?

23 hours ago

in reply to ↑



@CaseyDHudson
Casey Hudson
.@BablAqUA Yes, we design all of our cross-media stories so they don't trample on whatever choices you might have made in the games.

all I personaly want is that they treat whatever character expansion they do in the same way. I want these characters and their behaviour to make sense concidering all the possible ME universes, not just each individual one.

That's from the s/s thread, and one of the most reasonable responses I've seen in there. Pretty much what I'd use as the standard for such conversations in the future.

[ADLegend21]

Bright_Ops wrote...

You want to know what the fun thing is?

Everything Shepard did was all perfectly legal and honest, for the given value of honesty.

After all, he didn't exactly lie. He was completely truthful the whole time. He just proved his point before he needed to bring forth physical proof.

Shepard had to cover up War crimes, that's not exactly a Legal thing for her to do. I'll admit it was a great display of distracting from the point and making the admiralty board look foolish, but there was no need for Tali to cover up war crimes which could have been exposed to the geth be legion and caused a war which would be completely the fault of the quarians due to their shortsightedness. You'd think after 300 years more quarians would think like Qwib Qwib and want to make peace with the Geth especially after interacting with Legion who has no harmful intentions toward them.

[Troodon80]

That's from the s/s thread, and one of the most reasonable responses I've seen in there. Pretty much what I'd use as the standard for such conversations in the future.

It is quite a reasonable stance to take, if only all those who were in support of it were that reasonable. But really, this topic is done. Any future people who want to talk about S/S romances, please, keep it to the S/S thread. It's for everyone's benefit that I say this.

[AnimaTempli101]

@Troodon

And the integrity of my keyboard.

[Zulmoka531]

Yeah, I fully admit. By putting in there I was no different that any others who refuse to let it die. But I felt it was needed.
Anyways, back to lurking at the topic. I was actually enjoying the back and forth about the trial, was insightful to see how people varied with handling the quarian politics.

[ADLegend21]

Troodon80 wrote...

That's from the s/s thread, and one of the most reasonable responses I've seen in there. Pretty much what I'd use as the standard for such conversations in the future.

It is quite a reasonable stance to take, if only all those who were in support of it were that reasonable. But really, this topic is done. Any future people who want to talk about S/S romances, please, keep it to the S/S thread. It's for everyone's benefit that I say this.

If it involves Tali it an be talked about in the thread. personally I'm more interested in her growth as a person since she's still clinging to her ways in ME1 which means the past 2 years only got her a new suit and name and she's till the same girl we met in the Ally.

[Troodon80]

And the integrity of my keyboard.

I've gone for the projection keyboard. So I'm literally banging my head against the desk. Thankfully it means I don't end up breaking my keyboard, but the only downside is that I end up with a headache and a half.

Yeah, I fully admit. By putting in there I was no different that any others who refuse to let it die.

No worries, man, I just hope that the topic remains dead.

Edit: Spoke too soon, huh?

If it involves Tali it an be talked about in the thread.

Fine, you're right. But you already know what the responses are that you're going to get. So it can really considered trolling since you'll only be saying it because you know you can get a rise out of people.

Personally I'm more interested in her growth as a person since she's still clinging to her ways in ME1 which means the past 2 years only got her a new suit and name and she's till the same girl we met in the Ally.

I really don't see the problem there. She is what most people are happy with right now. There's only a few who aren't. There's only a few who want more.

Modifié par Troodon80, 21 mai 2011 - 07:09 .

[ADLegend21]

Troodon80 wrote...

I really don't see the problem there. She is what most people are happy with right now. There's only a few who aren't. There's only a few who want more.

So you don't see the problem of a character being the same throughout two games with span 3 years while most of the other characters around her have grown? Some of which are only in one game but they have more character development adnyou're okay with that? tali's remained a foot soldier while Wrex has gone on to bringing his race together into a unified government ashley and Kaidan have become spectres (Ashley' being only a few years older than Tali and having much more influence and power shocks me considering She's the daughter of an admiral) and Liara, who's not even in her matron stage, is the Shadow Broker with power in every sapient government in the Galaxy. I'd have thought after that there'd be "Tali should be a part of the quarian government" or "Let her take her fathers spot in ME3". Instead it's "If Tali's not on my squad in ME3 I'm rioting at Bioware". It's astounding how popularity can actually stunt a characters growth.

[Zulmoka531]

Tali, has remained anything but stagnant. In ME1, she was on her pilgrimage, her journey into adult hood. By stopping Saren, Sovereign and gathering data on the Geth she ultimately proves her worth as an adult in the quarian world and as Mass Effect 2 is leading (however doing a terrible job at it) Quarian recon teams. We see that both on the very first mission we are assigned to and then again on Haestrom. She's not a leader, doesn't mean she's a follower, and her character defintely has grown.

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 21 mai 2011 - 07:39 .

[Troodon80]

Okay, now this is better, I can talk about this; It's a decent topic(s).

So you don't see the problem of a character being the same throughout two games with span 3 years while most of the other characters around her have grown? Some of which are only in one game but they have more character development and you're okay with that?

If you look at real life, some people don't change all that much. Take a normal working person. I think (don't quote me on the actual figure) the mean average for staying in any one job is somewhere between 5 to 15 years. Do people change all that much when they are only in one job?

Most people don't. Now, being younger than the "average working person", she might change a little, but again, some people don't change all that much. It's not a requirement that people have to change over the course of three years.

tali's remained a foot soldier while Wrex has gone on to bringing his race together into a unified government

Wrex has influence within and on Tuchanka, mainly the Urdnot clan.

ashley and Kaidan have become spectres (Ashley' being only a few years older than Tali and having much more influence and power shocks me considering She's the daughter of an admiral)

Ashley and Kaidan are both humans. Within the military. Serving under someone who was already a Spectre. Who know the reason behind that. Political, military, who knows. But since quarians aren't part of the Council species, they couldn't (even if they wanted to) become Spectres.

and Liara, who's not even in her matron stage, is the Shadow Broker with power in every sapient government in the Galaxy.

She held a grudge against the previous Shadow Broker (which I can understand), once she (and Shepard) killed the previous Shadow Broker, Liara didn't want to waste that opportunity.

No such opportunity has been presented to Tali. Yet.

I'd have thought after that there'd be "Tali should be a part of the quarian government" or "Let her take her fathers spot in ME3". Instead it's "If Tali's not on my squad in ME3 I'm rioting at Bioware". It's astounding how popularity can actually stunt a characters growth.http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png

Because people are happy with their current Tali. Including Tali's current personality and character. Most people don't see Tali as a political leader (I'm not one of those people, by the way, but I don't shout about it). Most people don't believe that Tali has the age or experiance to be on the Admiralty board or part of the major decision making processes.

Most people are happy with Tali.

[ADLegend21]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

Tali, has remained anything but stagnant. In ME1, she was on her pilgrimage, her journey into adult hood. By stopping Saren, Sovereign and gathering data on the Geth she ultimately proves her worth as an adult in the quarian world and as Mass Effect 2 is leading (however doing a terrible job at it) Quarian recon teams. We see that both on the very first mission we are assigned to and then again on Haestrom. She's not a leader, doesn't mean she's a follower, and her character defintely has grown.

that's all well and good, but that's only her circumstances changing. She still has the sme ignorant view of the Geth (the heretics weren't helping) and she's still intolerant of Legion even if he's brough on before her (the encounter on haestrom) her "it's bad enough we gave them more power be rewriting the heretics" yeah it's bad that we made all geth not hate Organics Tali instead of it being the other way around. Her attitude towards Jacob is the same, it's blind hatred. Jacob was being completely civil towards her and had no conenction to the incident on the Flotilla and has been serveing with Shepard the whole time in ME2 and she's all "don't play nice" Way to try and mess up the team chemistry. I could understand an attitude towards Miranda, but Jacob deserved better than that but there's no renegade option to tell Tali to cool it.

[Zulmoka531]

With respect. The Geth nearly wiped out the Quarian people, it may have been their fault in the first place, but when your entire race and livelihood is nearly wiped out, you are going to have a very biased view regardless of what's in front of you.

Cerberus is a known terrorist organization (so much for secret huh? Go figure) They killed a large amount of quarians, nearly destroyed parts of the Flotilla, and then for good measure throw in everything Tali witnessed of Cerberus in Mass Effect 1 and tell me had you been in her position you would not be wary or out right hostile to members of said group?

Our circumstances can also help us grow as people. Putting real life things in this thread would be silly, but for the sake of conversation I'll bite. I've gone from living in a nice house, to living in a box on the street and then back to a normal life. Experiencing these changing circumstances has definitely given me a new world view on all sorts of things and greatly changed who I once was.

[Influ]

Troodon80 wrote...
I really don't see the problem there. She is what most people are happy with right now. There's only a few who aren't. There's only a few who want more.

I agree, she's a wonderful character right now. But it doesn't necessarily mean there's no room for character development or that it would be a bad thing. She's still young and some growth as a person could be expected.

On to the Tali trial matter. I don't think Shepard covering up the events on the Alarei is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, bascially the right thing would be to present the truth, but would it be a good or smarth thing in that case? As Tali warns, it could tear the fleet apart. In the conversation after the mission with Tali she tells the fleet is already dividing into groups by their stance against the Geth. Some are even spltting away from the fleet. In this light, hiding the evidence actually makes senes.

Also that's what I really like about the choice. It's not so clear cut do the good or bad thing kind of choice. Hopefully there will be more stuff like this in ME3.

[ADLegend21]

Troodon80 wrote...

If you look at real life, some people don't change all that much. Take a normal working person. I think (don't quote me on the actual figure) the mean average for staying in any one job is somewhere between 5 to 15 years. Do people change all that much when they are only in one job?

Most people don't. Now, being younger than the "average working person", she might change a little, but again, some people don't change all that much. It's not a requirement that people have to change over the course of three years.

Urdnot clan.

Ashley and Kaidan are both humans. Within the military. Serving under someone who was already a Spectre. Who know the reason behind that. Political, military, who knows. But since quarians aren't part of the Council species, they couldn't (even if they wanted to) become Spectres. She held a grudge against the previous Shadow Broker (which I can understand), once she (and Shepard) killed the previous Shadow Broker, Liara didn't want to waste that opportunity.

No such opportunity has been presented to Tali. Yet.

Because people are happy with their current Tali. Including Tali's current personality and character. Most people don't see Tali as a political leader (I'm not one of those people, by the way, but I don't shout about it). Most people don't believe that Tali has the age or experiance to be on the Admiralty board or part of the major decision making processes.

Most people are happy with Tali.

Tali also has influene within the Quarian governments since her father was on the admiralty board. Another reason Ashley's rise to power is immpressive is that her entire family is blacklisted within the Allince so she had extra hurdles to jump through while Tali can basically be given any position she wants because of her father's influence AND the quarians alredy wanting her to fill her fathers spot as an admiral. I know Ashley would ahve loved to have the brass on her side promoting her every time she so much as looked at an enemy (planned exxageration). Part of my "problem" is that people are happy with Tali (and Garrus as well) just being stuck under Shepard's command, especiall yafter the Yagh Shadow Broker put in his dossier that he's never reach his full potential if he keeps staying under Shepard's command. also the point Iw as trying to make by mentioning Liara's ascent to being the shadow Broker is that she had no connections yet rises to the pinnacle of her potential.

[GuardianAngel470]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Bright_Ops wrote...

You want to know what the fun thing is?

Everything Shepard did was all perfectly legal and honest, for the given value of honesty.

After all, he didn't exactly lie. He was completely truthful the whole time. He just proved his point before he needed to bring forth physical proof.

Shepard had to cover up War crimes, that's not exactly a Legal thing for her to do. I'll admit it was a great display of distracting from the point and making the admiralty board look foolish, but there was no need for Tali to cover up war crimes which could have been exposed to the geth be legion and caused a war which would be completely the fault of the quarians due to their shortsightedness. You'd think after 300 years more quarians would think like Qwib Qwib and want to make peace with the Geth especially after interacting with Legion who has no harmful intentions toward them.

If we actually wanted to get in a discussion about Legal, we could say that covering up crimes is basically the job description of a defense lawyer, and that's legal.

[Troodon80]

Tali also has influene within the Quarian governments since her father was on the admiralty board.

Well, I'm not too sure. I think it was said somewhere that (don't quote the exact phrasing) all quarians were equal, and they all worked together for a common interest. And I seem to remember that Tali herself said that being the daughter of an admiral didn't really mean much, other than others may have high expectations of her.

Tali can basically be given any position she wants because of her father's influence AND the quarians alredy wanting her to fill her fathers spot as an admiral.

As I said above. Quarians hold each other in pretty much the same light, regardless of heritage. The rise to Admiral would (as far as I can remember) would be voted upon. This being as it is, I see no reason why not. But like I said, quite a few people don't think she's leadership material. In some senses I'd agree. But since it's a vote, it may have more to do with Tali's reputation and the fact she (according to Shepard) knows more about the Geth than anyone else.

I know Ashley would ahve loved to have the brass on her side promoting her every time she so much as looked at an enemy (planned exaggeration).

As was said in the game; Spectres are born and picked, not trained.

So, it might not have mattered how classified the Vermire Survivor's file is, or what they done in the past, if the Council deems that they would make good Spectres, then that's all that matter in the Councils eyes. But yes, it would most likely have been good for them if the brass were on their side.

Part of my "problem" is that people are happy with Tali (and Garrus as well) just being stuck under Shepard's command, especiall yafter the Yagh Shadow Broker put in his dossier that he's never reach his full potential if he keeps staying under Shepard's command.

If Garrus and Tali are happy that way, then they are happy.

Garrus certainly seems to suggest with his "I'm with you regardless" line, that he is, and that he is a LI.

Tali is also a LI, and she supports Shepard. So both seem happy.

also the point I was trying to make by mentioning Liara's ascent to being the shadow Broker is that she had no connections yet rises to the pinnacle of her potential.

I understand that. But Liara rises to the pinnacle of her potential simply out of the opportunity that was presented. If she hadn't found out where the Shadow Broker was, she wouldn't have been able to get to that pinnacle. It was an opportunity. And I'm certainly not saying that an opportunity like that can't or won't be presented to Tali.