16775 réponses à ce sujet

[DrRedrum]

Holy ****, FreezaSama was damn close on Legion!

And Lol at Mr.Blueberry.

[NuclearBuddha]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I think so too, which I think undermines the entire Renegade/Paragon system. Paragon/Renegade should depend upon Shepard's motivations and behavior, not the consequences of his actions.

The game has no way to determine the motivation of the player, and therefore Shepard.  Thus other metrics are needed to determine paragon/renegade.  Sorry, but that's never going to happen.

[NuclearBuddha]

jacobOriley wrote...
Wasn't it Admiral Gerrel who you could report that to, after the trial ?

edit, I didn't realize I got ninja'd on the Gerrel thing, oops.

Interestingly, if you take the "it's up to Tali" option in that conversation, she doesn't tell him.

[NuclearBuddha]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes it can and it does. Shepard's motivations are quite clear. They are represented by the dialogue choices you get and by Shepard's tone when he actually speaks those chosen dialogues.

Renegade is doing whatever is necessary to get the job done, regardless of cost. Thus a Renegade will hide the proof since the goal is to get Tali ready for the mission.

Paragons are supposed to stand by their virtues, always. It makes more sense then that the Paragon way would be to prove Tali's innocense and expose Rael's crimes so justice could be served.

The fact is though, like you said, it isn't about the motivation or the attitude, it is ultimately about the result. If something has a bad outcome it will be Renegade.

NuclearBuddha wrote...
Interestingly, if you take the "it's up to Tali" option in that conversation, she doesn't tell him.

Interesting? I'd say it is pretty predictable.

Those are your motivations projected onto the game.  The game does not know that, or agree apparently, and thus it rates them differently on the paragon/renegade scale.

It's interesting due to her earlier statement of "no secrets between shipmates."  Gerrel is from her ship.  Though... it's her former ship at that point.  And it's interesting because if Shep chooses to tell Gerrel, she has noproblem with that, either.

[NuclearBuddha]

Saphra Deden wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Those are your motivations projected onto the game.  The game does not know that, or agree apparently, and thus it rates them differently on the paragon/renegade scale.

Shepard's motivations are quite clear and are expressed in his dialogue. If you feel otherwise then show me how this is wrong.

For example if you reveal the data all the stuff I talked about is talked about by Shepard. He did it because he wouldn't let his crewmate fall on the sword for the admirals' politics, because not being exiled was better for Tali in the long run, and because the quarian people need all the facts to make an intelligent decision.

This isn't me projecting anything.

NuclearBuddha wrote...

And it's interesting because if Shep chooses to tell Gerrel, she has noproblem with that, either.

I wouldn't say she has no problem with it. She just seems to know there's nothing she can do about it.

I'd previously suggested a better determinating factor:  paragon assists alien races, renegade disrupts them.  It's shown in that loyalty mission, it's consistent in Legion's loyalty mission (a choice that's provoked a lot of debate), even in the decision to call in the Alliance Fleet at the end of ME1.

She has no problem with it, otherwise the game would show her having a problem.  Like breaking off all contact with Shepard, as she does in the event of betraying her at the trial.

[NuclearBuddha]

Saphra Deden wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
I'd previously suggested a better determinating factor:  paragon assists alien races, renegade disrupts them.

That's a trend, not a morality, and it contradicts Shepard's motivations if he releases the evidence. Paragon and Renegade are meaningless if they can only be applied labels or descriptors after the fact. They are supposed to dictate how you behave, not what results from your behavior.

She has no problem with it, otherwise the game would show her having a problem.

It does. If you leave the choice up to her she doesn't reveal the truth, so obviously she doesn't want the truth revealed. When you do tell Gerrel she also pipes in and makes him promise not to tell anyone else.

Paragon/renegade is not good/evil or any other morality.  At the most it's "work with others/go it alone" be it on a personal or species-wide level.

She might choose differently, but she doesn't have a problem with it because she takes no negative action in the game.

Modifié par NuclearBuddha, 22 mai 2011 - 07:36 .

[Troodon80]

She might choose differently, but she doesn't have a problem with it because she takes no negative action in the game.

Or perhaps a better example is the second half of the trial, where when asked by the Admirals if Shepard has any new evidence, Tali then decides to say something, albeit only two words.

Instead Tali chooses to let Shepard tell Han what was found, then asks that the Admiral promise not to say anything. So, while she might have a slight sinking feeling in her gut, nothing further is said, indicating that she doesn't have much, or any, problem with the choice that Shepard made.

[NuclearBuddha]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Also Tali does have a problem with telling anyone about the evidence. She just doesn't act on it.

That is your interpretation.  Given that the other example of Shep betraying her has her acting very definitively, I think there's better evidence for the interpretation that she doesn't consider that a betrayal.

[Lenimph]

For my fellow Chrome Techs

Tali Chrome Theme

Modifié par Lenimph, 22 mai 2011 - 08:52 .

[Troodon80]

Lenimph wrote...

For my fellow Chrome Techs

Tali Chrome Theme

Looks very nice.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Hehe, my google homepage has a Tali on too. And my wallpaper has a Garrus.

And after someone on here did a photoshop for me This is my avvie for other forums now!

[MadMapper]

Jhonny Nocturne wrote...

 Huh....
Anyway, I was randomly looking through the old forum and found a very early discussion of Tali.

This was after the first (I believe) screen of her dropped and before her name was given. I thought it fun to read through the early speculation.

That's interesting! I've never read ME1 first discussions...

[Runescapeguy9]

Lenimph wrote...

For my fellow Chrome Techs
Tali Chrome Theme

I'll stick with my FF theme but very nicely done.

[NuclearBuddha]

That is pretty, Lenimph.

[Collider]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Collider wrote...
I do think that the revealing the evidence should have been the paragon option, though. I sort of felt that the reason it wasn't in-game was because most players probably just spam the upper right dialog option.
Ideally though, there would be no paragon and renegade option. Like Dragon Age.

I think it's renegade because it affects an alien species negatively.

I imagine that may have been their reasoning.

[Mresa]

 Hey there! Long time lurker here 
I thought I'd pop by and shamelessly promote some art of mine that I did of Tali.



Would really appreciate any possible feedback!
Also, I love Tali, almost as much as Garrus~~

[AlexShepard89]

hey guys...maybe i'm saying something that you already know...but today I did the shadow mission with liara the second time and after the mission I didn't romanced her. Better so because after I invited her on the Normandy she asked to me: "Shepard...what are you fighting for? tell me the truth...are you fighting to build a house for you and miss vas normandy?"...of course I answered YES...so in ME3 there must be the possibility to realize my shepard's dream in the happy ending Did you already noticed this dialogue??

[Collider]

Looks great, Mresa!

[Collider]

AlexShepard89 wrote...

hey guys...maybe i'm saying something that you already know...but today I did the shadow mission with liara the second time and after the mission I didn't romanced her. Better so because after I invited her on the Normandy she asked to me: "Shepard...what are you fighting for? tell me the truth...are you fighting to build a house for you and miss vas normandy?"...of course I answered YES...so in ME3 there must be the possibility to realize my shepard's dream in the happy ending Did you already noticed this dialogue??

I would imagine so. Maybe not exactly building her the house, but moving towards the quarians getting their homeworld back, certainly.