118 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Markinator_123 wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Personally, what I don't understand is why Miranda *tells* Shepard that she wanted to include a control chip but wasn't allowed to do so. I mean, the idea of a control chip might not have even occurred to Shepard at that point. But, once it's mentioned, if Shep feels s/he doesn't yet have a reason to trust Miri, her denial of the chip is no real reassurance at all and is more likely to estrange Shepard....

That's the issue with her, I think. It felt like she told me that just so she could let me know how cold-hearted and superior she is, and to establish herself as a dominant character. It makes her ice-queen facade very obvious when she spouts such an un-needed, emotionally-driven declaration of her distinct lack of empathy, and it ironically points out just how contradictory she is - a true unemotional, unsympathetic character would have known that revealing information like that to the person she's going to be following into battle isn't a smart move. It's strange how this line actually summarises Miranda's character as a whole.

I've always loved the ice-queen-in-denial characters, and I've always loved watching all their emotional armor crack and fall apart as the game/series progresses. Miranda could have done with a smoother transition, I think, but I still think she's wonderfully written.

You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

  


I liked the way she is at the start of the game because i like that she is a strong and ruthless woman. she reminds me of Diana from the Original V mini series. and i really liked that 

[Zan Mura]

Well, people are different. For my part, I have worked as a specialist of sorts for several years of my life, and the amount of people in this business who are otherwise so intelligent, yet socially stupid as walls, is so mind-boggling that I can't help but feel a part of Miranda's character is all too familiar.

Making enemies and burning bridges where they are not needed, is beyond a doubt the easiest and easily the most destructive way to screw up everything your potential could have gained you. It is - quite literally - as stupid as it gets. But on the other hand, I don't see Miranda as all that bad. She isn't willingly burning bridges everywhere she goes, there are many things she could say, yet doesn't. Her character clearly has a lot of strong opinions on a lot of your actions, teammates etc... it's just that she's more direct about her opinions than most, and like an emotionally underdeveloped teenager feels this need to sometimes just lash out for the sake of it.

This is especially apparent with the Jack & Miranda fight on the Normandy, where if you don't use either of the persuasion options and pick Jack's side, Miranda will start pouting like a teen. As you ask her if you and her are ok, she says "not even remotely". One would assume that someone with her IQ and training could understand the purpose for taking the side of a mentally unstable biotic A-bomb, over a trained and disciplined officer, just for appearance's sakes. But no.

To be fair though, Shepard's following dialogue options about pouting about it and reporting to the illusive man are hardly the actions of a mature never mind exceptionally capable military leader, either.

So to end this banter, while BW does an amazing job, there will always those few incidents that probably represent less intended character personality and more unintended oversights in writing. Or just our own subjective opinions. Who's to know?

Modifié par Zan Mura, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Breakdown Boy]

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

[Breakdown Boy]

Zan Mura wrote...

Well, people are different. For my part, I have worked as a specialist of sorts for several years of my life, and the amount of people in this business who are otherwise so intelligent, yet socially stupid as walls, is so mind-boggling that I can't help but feel a part of Miranda's character is all too familiar.

Making enemies and burning bridges where they are not needed, is beyond a doubt the easiest and easily the most destructive way to screw up everything your potential could have gained you. It is - quite literally - as stupid as it gets. But on the other hand, I don't see Miranda as all that bad. She isn't willingly burning bridges everywhere she goes, there are many things she could say, yet doesn't. Her character clearly has a lot of strong opinions on a lot of your actions, teammates etc... it's just that she's more direct about her opinions than most, and like an emotionally underdeveloped teenager feels this need to sometimes just lash out for the sake of it.

This is especially apparent with the Jack & Miranda fight on the Normandy, where if you don't use either of the persuasion options and pick Jack's side, Miranda will start pouting like a teen. As you ask her if you and her are ok, she says "not even remotely". One would assume that someone with her IQ and training could understand the purpose for taking the side of a mentally unstable biotic A-bomb, over a trained and disciplined officer, just for appearance's sakes. But no.

To be fair though, Shepard's following dialogue options about pouting about it and reporting to the illusive man are hardly the actions of a mature never mind exceptionally capable military leader, either.

So to end this banter, while BW does an amazing job, there will always those few incidents that probably represent less intended character personality and more unintended oversights in writing. Or just our own subjective opinions. Who's to know?

We need except that not all diologue binds to a persons character. The whole Jack/ Miranda loyalty keeping aspect seems a bit off from a character perspective.

But then again if you agree with Jack then you are basically applying all Cerberus' missdeeds to Miranda although she had no part in the mistakes the other cells made. That type of judgement would obviousely not go well in regards to the relationship.

[KainrycKarr]

Eh, I completely understand the reasoning behind it. I don't like Miranda. Not because she's bad writing or anything, or even because of her outfit(thought it does suck).

I don't like her cause her character archetype is pretty common in sci-fi and I find it uninteresting.

Of course, just as many people don't like my favorite character either(tali) so in the end it's just personal taste.

Member since january...why in the world is this bothering you JUST NOW?

And like I said...the logic as to why, is there. Shepard is an unknown quantity, and an expensive investment. It's quite reasonable for them to want a leash.

whether or not the leash is in fact there, remains to be seen.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[KainrycKarr]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

During the briefing for the SM, when Jack says "Not so fast cheerleader, no one wants to take orders from you", you can see Garrus shaking his head in agreement with Jack's statement.

Other than that? Nothing really.

[Breakdown Boy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

During the briefing for the SM, when Jack says "Not so fast cheerleader, no one wants to take orders from you", you can see Garrus shaking his head in agreement with Jack's statement.

Other than that? Nothing really.

I understood it as him shaking his head at Jack's petty attitude and not Miranda's ability to lead, he would have nodded if he agreed with Jack.

[Elyvern]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

During the briefing for the SM, when Jack says "Not so fast cheerleader, no one wants to take orders from you", you can see Garrus shaking his head in agreement with Jack's statement.

Other than that? Nothing really.

If Jack dies because you didn't upgrade the Normandy's armour, it's Garrus who will speak up in her place. And he says something along the lines of not trusting her because she's Cerberus.

But in all honesty, I find Miranda's bluntness extremely refreshing. She could always use her spy training and physical assets to blind and lie her way into people's good books, but she doesn't. What you see is what you get. The alternative is to take on a more diabolic and morally reprehensible approach and make her someone like TIM, who will nod his head and agree with you up to the moment he drives a dagger into your back. My point is her confrontational nature may earn her detractors, but it's also a strength worthy of admiration and respect.

And Killjoy Cutter you are right, she would be a very difficult person to work or live with, which is why I leave that entirely to Shepard. I'm happy to appreciate her from a distance.

Modifié par Elyvern, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Lord_Tirian]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

But then again if you agree with Jack then you are basically applying all Cerberus' missdeeds to Miranda although she had no part in the mistakes the other cells made. That type of judgement would obviousely not go well in regards to the relationship.

Y'know, it actually occurred to me that the idea of a control chip isn't too unreasonable, because:
a) In the ME universe, computers occasionally go sentient. And homicidal (see Geth, see the "Tracking Signal" sidequest in ME1). And when they were rebuilding Shep, there wasn't a way to tell what exactly would come out.
EVERY Cerberus experiment has blown up in their face - Jack, Husks, Creepers, etc. - all of that would've been much less of an issue with control chips.

So, if Miranda wanted to put in a chip, it essentially only makes here the only person in Cerberus with a) a clue and a survival instinct. Can't fault her for that - after all, you can always decide *not* to use the chip.

[Major Truth]

I actually never took this comment litterally to be honest.

I always saw it as, given the context and timing of the conversation, Miranda "Putting Shepard in his place"

To me, she was looking to gauge his reactions to such a statement, while at the same time time telling him, I'm not your friend, I'm not buying into the hype around you, and as far as I'm concerned your little more then a Cerberus tool/weapon

I don't see actually impanting Shepard as inkeeping with Miranda's personality

Modifié par Major Truth, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:14 .

[lovgreno]

Whatever her reasons for putting that ship in my Shepards heads I can't see why they would trust her after that.

[Markinator_123]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

If Jack is dead, when Miranda offers herself to be team leader, Garrus says, "I don't want you leading the same team, half of us don't even trust you."

[ExtremeOne]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

If Jack is dead, when Miranda offers herself to be team leader, Garrus says, "I don't want you leading the same team, half of us don't even trust you."

   



Oh so if this was the almighty Liara I guess garrus would be hell yeah lets go. you know its one thing to not like a character but lets be honest she one of the best fire team leaders in the game and thats just cold hard truth 

[Mir5]

Miranda:"Hey Shepard, we like totally didn't put a control chip in your brain, so you don't have to bother about it."

Shepard:"Okay, thanks."

My face:

Follows an extremely paranoid feeling throughout the game.

Also, Shepard got hacked in Overlord. The scary thing is that I can't differentiate where the storytelling mistakes end and stuff I should take seriously begin.

Modifié par Mir5, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Markinator_123]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You are perfectly right about one thing. The way she treats you at the beginning of the game was not a smart move at all. I wonder if she ever understands why people like Jack and Garrus can't stand her.

When can Garrus not stand her? In fact when does Garrus even interact with Miranda in the game?

If Jack is dead, when Miranda offers herself to be team leader, Garrus says, "I don't want you leading the same team, half of us don't even trust you."

   



Oh so if this was the almighty Liara I guess garrus would be hell yeah lets go. you know its one thing to not like a character but lets be honest she one of the best fire team leaders in the game and thats just cold hard truth 

Garrus would be the more obvious choice.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[AntiChri5]

Garrus is an actual competant leader.



Anyway, this reduces Miranda to another pathetic slaver.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I always pick Garrus to lead the other team in both stages, it has always been the obvious choice to me. Miranda would be my second choice, followed by Jacob.



But I always use Jacob to escort the freed crew back to the Normandy.

[TuringPoint]

I like to compare this to Miranda turning on the Illusive Man at the end.

The irony is that if she had gotten her way, TIM would've made Shepard keep the base, and she wouldn't have liked that or been able to do anything about it.

So that much is evidence that she was just full of it when she said that, or at least that the comment didn't express the deepest parts of her character.

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
But in all honesty, I find Miranda's bluntness extremely refreshing. She could always use her spy training and physical assets to blind and lie her way into people's good books, but she doesn't. What you see is what you get. The alternative is to take on a more diabolic and morally reprehensible approach and make her someone like TIM, who will nod his head and agree with you up to the moment he drives a dagger into your back. My point is her confrontational nature may earn her detractors, but it's also a strength worthy of admiration and respect.

Exactly.

As for the control chip issue: considering the results of certain earlier Cerberus experiments, there's no reason to blithely assume Shepard won't turn into an omnicidal maniac after waking up. A control chip would've been useful in that case. Apart from that, I can understand TIM wanted to protect his investment. Sure it's morally unjustifiable, but guess what - morals aren't the only consideration in the universe. I don't exactly *like* that Miranda says that, but I understand her.

[Major Truth]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I always pick Garrus to lead the other team in both stages, it has always been the obvious choice to me. Miranda would be my second choice, followed by Jacob.

But I always use Jacob to escort the freed crew back to the Normandy.

Gotta disagree with the above. For me Miranda is the logical choice to lead the fire team.

Garrus has no experience of command with the exception of Omega where he got his unit killed

This is a human mission to look after human interests. I'm not questioning Garrus's loyalty, but he is loyal to Shepard (for the moment), not humanity. Would you take a bullet for a Turian.

Garrus is too emotional by far and loves nothing more then to meat out justice in the form of execution.

Miranda is human, an experienced commander, and does not allow her emotions to get the better of her. She is by far the only choice to lead in Shepards absense

[Markinator_123]

Major Truth wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I always pick Garrus to lead the other team in both stages, it has always been the obvious choice to me. Miranda would be my second choice, followed by Jacob.

But I always use Jacob to escort the freed crew back to the Normandy.

Gotta disagree with the above. For me Miranda is the logical choice to lead the fire team.

Garrus has no experience of command with the exception of Omega where he got his unit killed

This is a human mission to look after human interests. I'm not questioning Garrus's loyalty, but he is loyal to Shepard (for the moment), not humanity. Would you take a bullet for a Turian.

Garrus is too emotional by far and loves nothing more then to meat out justice in the form of execution.

Miranda is human, an experienced commander, and does not allow her emotions to get the better of her. She is by far the only choice to lead in Shepards absense

Did you forget that everybody on Lazarus station died except Miranda, Jacob, and Shepard? The only reason Garrus's unit died was because of a traitor (just like in Miranda's case by the way). In other words, it was not Garrus's fault at all. His team was doing extremely well on Omega. He got his team together just like Shepard did in ME1 and accomplished so much that he managed to get the attention of the three most powerful merc groups in the Terminus Systems.

Tell me what evidence do you have that Miranda can lead a fireteam? Sure, she lead Lazarus but that was a science project. There is a difference between leading a science team and a combat fireteam. You actually have proof that Garrus has lead a team that fights before in the game. Besides, like I said before, half of the team doesn't trust Miranda.

PS: The fight between Jack and Miranda felt like I was in high school all over again. Miranda would make a very poor commander in Shepard's absence.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Caihn]

Major Truth wrote...
She is by far the only choice to lead in Shepards absense

Not the only one, but certainly the best choice.

[snfonseka]

Garrus was my squad leader for both times and Miranda was with Shepards squad for each time.

[Xilizhra]

Major Truth wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I always pick Garrus to lead the other team in both stages, it has always been the obvious choice to me. Miranda would be my second choice, followed by Jacob.

But I always use Jacob to escort the freed crew back to the Normandy.

Gotta disagree with the above. For me Miranda is the logical choice to lead the fire team.

Garrus has no experience of command with the exception of Omega where he got his unit killed

This is a human mission to look after human interests. I'm not questioning Garrus's loyalty, but he is loyal to Shepard (for the moment), not humanity. Would you take a bullet for a Turian.

Garrus is too emotional by far and loves nothing more then to meat out justice in the form of execution.

Miranda is human, an experienced commander, and does not allow her emotions to get the better of her. She is by far the only choice to lead in Shepards absense

I'm not doing this for humanity, or at least not humanity because it is humanity. If these were turians or asari getting kidnapped in huge numbers, I'd be going after the Collectors with just as much fervor. And yes, if need be, I would take a bullet for a turian.
And I don't fully trust Miranda; if things went downhill and I died, I'd appoint Garrus to be my successor.

[Major Truth]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I always pick Garrus to lead the other team in both stages, it has always been the obvious choice to me. Miranda would be my second choice, followed by Jacob.

But I always use Jacob to escort the freed crew back to the Normandy.

Gotta disagree with the above. For me Miranda is the logical choice to lead the fire team.

Garrus has no experience of command with the exception of Omega where he got his unit killed

This is a human mission to look after human interests. I'm not questioning Garrus's loyalty, but he is loyal to Shepard (for the moment), not humanity. Would you take a bullet for a Turian.

Garrus is too emotional by far and loves nothing more then to meat out justice in the form of execution.

Miranda is human, an experienced commander, and does not allow her emotions to get the better of her. She is by far the only choice to lead in Shepards absense

Did you forget that everybody on Lazarus station died except Miranda, Jacob, and Shepard? The only reason Garrus's unit died was because of a traitor (just like in Miranda's case by the way). In other words, it was not Garrus's fault at all. His team was doing extremely well on Omega. He got his team together just like Shepard did in ME1 and accomplished so much that he managed to get the attention of the three most powerful merc groups in the Terminus Systems.

Tell me what evidence do you have that Miranda can lead a fireteam? Sure, she lead Lazarus but that was a science project. There is a difference between leading a science team and a combat fireteam. You actually have proof that Garrus has lead a team that fights before in the game. Besides, like I said before, half of the team doesn't trust Miranda.

PS: The fight between Jack and Miranda felt like I was in high school all over again. Miranda would make a very poor commander in Shepard's absence.

On Lazarus station once the attack occurred her only priority was to get Shepard out alive. She succeeded. In her own words "Everyone else is expendable" on Lazarus station

She is also a cell leader of Cerberus, and if you look at her "Cerberus Officer" skill it clearly mentions her ability to lead. Their is a reason why TIM installed her as Shepards number two