153 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

--Master of All-- wrote...


I don't know, if you read Admiral Hackett's dossier, it sounds like the Alliance is giving him a free pass.

I did read Hackett's dossier, and so what? Doesn't really change anything. If the Alliance insists on it, they will get to Shepard eventually. Hackett may only be the reason Shepard gets out of prison.

[--Master of All--]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

--Master of All-- wrote...


I don't know, if you read Admiral Hackett's dossier, it sounds like the Alliance is giving him a free pass.

I did read Hackett's dossier, and so what? Doesn't really change anything. If the Alliance insists on it, they will get to Shepard eventually. Hackett may only be the reason Shepard gets out of prison.

It'll be hard for them to overstep an admiral, but not impossible I suppose. I still think there's going to be more to it than that... maybe some external event or complication that he'll get blamed for.

[--Master of All--]

^These are all very sensible reasons, he may get called out on all of them, for all I know. If the game opened up with some type of interrogation regarding these issues, it could be constructed in a way that it also serves to catch new players up to speed on what's happened in the storyline so far. I like it.

Modifié par --Master of All--, 18 septembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[krimesh]

Graz73 wrote...

I just read this other topic about Shepard's resurrection and the afterlife:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/4787199/2#4793729

It got me thinking, "What was the point of the whole death and resurrection plot?" I kept expecting that plot point to have some payoff.  Would Shepard turn out to be a clone or a robot or a duplicate?  Would the Illusive Man have some kind of secret control of Shepard?  Some sort of enlightenment?

Nope, none of that. So far, Shepard's resurrection has not had any negative consequences! 
And if there are no consequences, then why include it? They could have just started the game with "Two years later"

Here are a few of my theories about why it was included:
1) It puts Shepard into the monomythic heroic story arc, which Joseph Campbell explained.  Part of the "Hero's Journey" deals with conquering death.  Shepard can now enter that club with the likes of Hercules, Anakin, and Harry Potter...  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heroesjourney.svg
2) Bioware wanted to start the game with a BANG.
3) An excuse to let 2 years pass in game, so that the player could rediscover everything along with Shepard.
4) An excuse to update the Normady.
5) An excuse to gather a new squad. (The game would have been much quicker if it started with the ME 1 Squaddies already on the team)
6) It set the collectors up as a real threat.
7) It partially redeemed Cerberus. I mean, even if I hated an organization, if they brought me back to life I'd have to at least hear them out, right?
8) MAYBE the resurrection plot will indeed pay off in ME3?!?!

What do you think?

I'd not say "excuse". It's a design to make those things possible. There is nothing "cheap" about it - a word which is always lurking in the wake of an "excuse".
I'd not say "redeem" either. But resurrection does nonetheless put Shepard into a situation where cooperation with Cerberus is necessary, no matter if Shepard likes it or not.
Shepard hasn't just been rebuilt. The Commander has been re-engineered. There is no knowing what long time consequences that will have, but for know Shepard has a harder punch, takes more punishment, and is easily upgradeable with new tech.

People who think that Shepard's skills have been undone at re-birth should think about this: in two years tech has changed. Some things work differently now, and have to be learned again. If you are playing an imported Adept, say, notice how you can actually start the game with a lot of the powers you had in ME (you can't have stasis *and* barrier at the same time, but that's about it.) The fact that all those powers are down to level 1 does not undo what you learned in ME - it's simply a new scale. You say your powers had more punch back than? Well, your enemies had different defenses back then. So Shepard's death is no excuse to reset Shepard's skills. There is no need, because there never was a reset.

Modifié par krimesh, 18 septembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Gibb_Garrus]

honestly i think an intro where you're brought in would be pretty epic. Like in the opening cut scenes the council/alliance ambush your ship to take you in, and you can have the choice to co-operate or resist.



Then when your in their custody, you can tell them everything you've learnt, and if they still don't believe you, there will be an epic jailbreak scene.



Sounds good to me.

[krimesh]

I don't think that Shepard will allow the Alliance to take him/her into custody. After LOTSB it seems much more likely that the commander and his squad will be a faction all by themselves. And the Alliance sure doesn't want to spoil relations with them. Besides, it is possible that Shepard is a Spectre at the beginning of ME3. No jailing a Spectre.

[Siegdrifa]

Graz73 wrote...

Here are a few of my theories about why it was included:
1) It puts Shepard into the monomythic heroic story arc, which Joseph Campbell explained.  Part of the "Hero's Journey" deals with conquering death.  Shepard can now enter that club with the likes of Hercules, Anakin, and Harry Potter...  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heroesjourney.svg
2) Bioware wanted to start the game with a BANG.
3) An excuse to let 2 years pass in game, so that the player could rediscover everything along with Shepard.
4) An excuse to update the Normady.
5) An excuse to gather a new squad. (The game would have been much quicker if it started with the ME 1 Squaddies already on the team)
6) It set the collectors up as a real threat.
7) It partially redeemed Cerberus. I mean, even if I hated an organization, if they brought me back to life I'd have to at least hear them out, right?
8) MAYBE the resurrection plot will indeed pay off in ME3?!?!

What do you think?

While all your theories fit, i think the 2 was their main reason.
Give a begining player never lived in a game and would never forget.

But for me it's going stupidly too far.
If you want the people to be attracted to the story and univers you are describing, you have to move in the "fiction" little by little".
If you give something that big to take, it give a really bad impact.

"you die at the begining of the game lulz !"
and your are resurected... how ?
"because it's ****ing badass cutting edge technologie LULZ !!!"
mmmyeah ... so we could resurect anybody that are not dead from natural cause or sickness?
"no no because ..... it's too expensive LULZ !"
...

The begining of ME2 is in my opinion one of the badest i ever played in 26 year of gaming experience.

I hope they will make it turn into something better in ME3, or they will just forget about it.

[--Master of All--]

krimesh wrote...

I don't think that Shepard will allow the
Alliance to take him/her into custody. After LOTSB it seems much more
likely that the commander and his squad will be a faction all by
themselves. And the Alliance sure doesn't want to spoil relations with
them. Besides, it is possible that Shepard is a Spectre at the beginning
of ME3. No jailing a Spectre.

The point is, they need some way to plausibly reset Shepard's skills and abilities going into the final chapter, and interrogation/prison is a good way to do it. I think it's one of the most likely scenarios for the opening of ME3.

Modifié par --Master of All--, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[--Master of All--]

Shandepared wrote...

--Master of All-- wrote...

The point is, they need some way to plausibly reset Shepard's skills and abilities going into the final chapter, and interrogation/prison is a good way to do it. I think it's one of the most likely scenarios for the opening of ME3.

It is not about reseting Shepard's skills and abilities. That kind of thing shouldn't ever be part of the narrative. The point is to put Shepard in a position in which he needs to be reintroduced to his ship and his crew and needs to recruit his squadmates again.

We also need some passage of time in which Shepard wasn't saving the galaxy. Jail solves this nicely. He gets locked up for a few years so that the his actions in ME2 can start having consequences and such.

Right, I am well aware of some of the other reasons a reset is necessary, I just don't want to go there, since there are a lot of people that don't want to give up their ME2 squad. But yes, you are absolutely correct that jail solves a lot of issues. Maybe when the Reapers actually show up, they'll decide it's a good time to put Shepard out on parole

Modifié par --Master of All--, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[krimesh]

--Master of All-- wrote...
The point is, they need some way to plausibly reset Shepard's skills and abilities going into the final chapter, and interrogation/prison is a good way to do it. I think it's one of the most likely scenarios for the opening of ME3.

How does interrogation and jail reset your powers? Anyway, as I said, your powers are not reset, just rescaled. It's a question of how they are represented on your screen. That does not need justification.

[--Master of All--]

krimesh wrote...

--Master of All-- wrote...
The point is, they need some way to plausibly reset Shepard's skills and abilities going into the final chapter, and interrogation/prison is a good way to do it. I think it's one of the most likely scenarios for the opening of ME3.

How does interrogation and jail reset your powers? Anyway, as I said, your powers are not reset, just rescaled. It's a question of how they are represented on your screen. That does not need justification.

Whether you call it 're-scaling' or not, it's effectively reducing Shepard to a level of ability at which most enemies will offer a challenge, and there is room for progression throughout the game. While he is in prison, things can change. He can become physically weaker, or technology can advance and force him to re-learn basic concepts. Regardless, in effect, it acts as a 'reset' mechanism for Shepard's skills and abilities.

Spending time in prison isn't quite as effective as the resurrection plot for explaining a loss of ability, I'll admit, but since that one's already been used, prison and/or amnesia are a couple of your other main options, and since prison fits the evidence better than anything I've heard so far, I'm going with that.

Modifié par --Master of All--, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[krimesh]

^^

Even if you do not accept the starting powers as a new representation of what you finished the previous game with, I doubt that there will be a major story line twist to explain such a small detail away. A Spectre, the person who went to the Collector Base and blew it up with nothing more than a team of 12, the one to bring down the Shadow Broker with one fireteam, someone who Hackett and Anderson are loyal to, will not be jailed and interrogated by the Alliance. "You really think you can arrest a (former) Spectre?"

[krimesh]

^^

Yeah, okay. Alliance's hero will get arrested. And the Commander will let it happen, because there is no hurry with stopping the Reapers. Obviously this is what will happen. I see the errors of my ways now.

[Sable Phoenix]

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

This is the future, anything is possible, don't bring real world **** into a fictional universe.

Right.  Tell that to BioWare's writing team who took extensive pains to build a hard SF universe built on mostly real-world physics or acceptable quantum theory in the first game.  They should've kept that real world science out of their science fiction!  It's just dragging things down!

Some of us like SF because of the extrapolation of the real world into the fantastic.  The more achievable and realistic the fantastic is, the better.  The Lazarus Project was a massive blow to the very nicely coherent and (mostly) hard SF universe that BioWare had set up, all for a questionable gain.

[krimesh]

I love Mass Effect, and I love Mass Effect 2. I think all writers did a great job. That's why I am on this forum. I felt that this had to be said at this point.

[General User]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

This is the future, anything is possible, don't bring real world **** into a fictional universe.

Right.  Tell that to BioWare's writing team who took extensive pains to build a hard SF universe built on mostly real-world physics or acceptable quantum theory in the first game.  They should've kept that real world science out of their science fiction!  It's just dragging things down!

Some of us like SF because of the extrapolation of the real world into the fantastic.  The more achievable and realistic the fantastic is, the better.  The Lazarus Project was a massive blow to the very nicely coherent and (mostly) hard SF universe that BioWare had set up, all for a questionable gain.

Exactly. I love Science fiction because  it makes the fantastic believable, and the best (maybe only) way to do that is to use real-world science as it is understood today.
 
That being said… I must disagree on the idea that the Lazarus concept makes ME2 less believable.
 
 If 175 years ago a person who wasn’t breathing and had no pulse was brought to a doctor, the poor bloke would probably have been pronounced dead, today there is a possibility of resuscitation. 
 
The idea that, 175 years from now, people who we consider dead could be candidates for revival (or reconstruction may be a better word) is far from unbelievable.

[krimesh]

^^

Agreed.

[General User]

Shandepared wrote...

--Master of All-- wrote...

I don't know, if you read Admiral Hackett's dossier, it sounds like the Alliance is giving him a free pass.

Hackett gave Shepard a free pass, likely with Anderson's help. However neither of them is the final authority. It's clear that elements in the Systems Alliance want Shepard brought in for questioning. Just because Hackett shut them down once, and they were polite enough not to go around him or over his head, doesn't mean they've given up. In light of Anderson's actions against Cerberus you can bet the Systems Alliance is going to be damned eager to find out from Shepard just what the hell is going on.

In addition to that, the Council may want to bring in Shepard. Whether you've been paragon or renegade they have plenty of reason to be worried. If you did Garrus or Thane's loyalty missions then you either:

A.) Were not a Spectre at the time and thus severely broke the law

B.) Were  a Spectre but went back on your promise to keep your activites in the Terminus, violating the conditions under which you were granted Spectre status again

Then of-course there is the death of Tela Vasir.

If you rewrote the heretics then you knowingly aided a Council enemy (as far as they're concerned).

Did you keep the genophage cure data? That's a big no-no.

Who knows what might happen, but it is certainly plausible that the Council might turn on you.

Hackett seems to be an ardent Shepard supporter, it’s one of the reasons I’m such a strong Hackett supporter. But he is the commander of 5th Fleet, he has a boss, it may be an American style major command/joint chiefs system, or British style Lords of the Admiralty system, but if the very top levels of the Alliance government or military decide to bring in Shepard, Adm. Hackett really can’t stop them, but they would have to be the very top levels.
 
Consider this; if the Alliance is anything like a modern nation then it could very have more than one intelligence agency, all of whom could probably think up a question or two they’d like to ask ol’ Shep, 5th Fleet’s NAVINT department is the only one that even needs Adm. Hackett’s approval. For that matter there are probably a few STG, and turian intel. officers who would love to have a sit down with the commander…

[Sable Phoenix]

General User wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

This is the future, anything is possible, don't bring real world **** into a fictional universe.

Right.  Tell that to BioWare's writing team who took extensive pains to build a hard SF universe built on mostly real-world physics or acceptable quantum theory in the first game.  They should've kept that real world science out of their science fiction!  It's just dragging things down!

Some of us like SF because of the extrapolation of the real world into the fantastic.  The more achievable and realistic the fantastic is, the better.  The Lazarus Project was a massive blow to the very nicely coherent and (mostly) hard SF universe that BioWare had set up, all for a questionable gain.

Exactly. I love Science fiction because  it makes the fantastic believable, and the best (maybe only) way to do that is to use real-world science as it is understood today.
 
That being said… I must disagree on the idea that the Lazarus concept makes ME2 less believable.
 
 If 175 years ago a person who wasn’t breathing and had no pulse was brought to a doctor, the poor bloke would probably have been pronounced dead, today there is a possibility of resuscitation. 
 
The idea that, 175 years from now, people who we consider dead could be candidates for revival (or reconstruction may be a better word) is far from unbelievable.

I can't agree.  After ten minutes of asphyxiation, there is no clinical way to reverse brain death.  You can keep the body processes going, you can keep the heart beating, the body will still live, but the person inside the body is irreversibly gone.  To say that 175 years is all we need to reverse two years of brain death, to say nothing of the destruction of or severe damage to every other part of the body, is optimistic in the extreme and, in my opinion, totally unrealistic.

Now if newShep is a synthetic construct based on brain scans in Alliance medical records, that's a different story.  I can accept spending two years and hundreds of billions of dollars (or whatever the exchange rate to credits is) to create what is essentially an organic geth.  But oldShep from the first game is dead, and will never come back.  NewShep is not, technically, a real person.  NewShep is a synthetic.  The major thing that sets newShep apart from a standard AI is that newShep has emotions, something which nobody else has been able to accomplish with an AI up to this point.

If the BioWare writers don't capitalize on this in ME3, it will have been a wasted opportunity and we'll all know it was simply a cheap way to 'reset' the series for ME2.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:56 .

[eternalnightmare13]

 I'd say # 3,4, and 5.

Also it is a gimmick.  Remember the old trailer for the game that hinted/revealed that Shep was dead.  It stirred up a lot of hype/speculation as to how/why  Shep died.  True, ME1 was a big deal, but nothing stirs up controversy/interest/hype like someone dieing or getting caught in an affair a la Tiger Woods.  They went with death, this time.  I'm hoping ME3 opens with Shep spending his down time shagging every asari on Illium.