153 réponses à ce sujet

[krimesh]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
I can't agree.  After ten minutes of asphyxiation, there is no clinical way to reverse brain death.  You can keep the body processes going, you can keep the heart beating, the body will still live, but the person inside the body is irreversibly gone.  To say that 175 years is all we need to reverse two years of brain death, to say nothing of the destruction of or severe damage to every other part of the body, is optimistic in the extreme and, in my opinion, totally unrealistic.

Now if newShep is a synthetic construct based on brain scans in Alliance medical records, that's a different story.  I can accept spending two years and hundreds of billions of dollars (or whatever the exchange rate to credits is) to create what is essentially an organic geth.  But oldShep from the first game is dead, and will never come back.  NewShep is not, technically, a real person.  NewShep is a synthetic.  The major thing that sets newShep apart from a standard AI is that newShep has emotions, something which nobody else has been able to accomplish with an AI up to this point.

If the BioWare writers don't capitalize on this in ME3, it will have been a wasted opportunity and we'll all know it was simply a cheap way to 'reset' the series for ME2.

Remember medigel, and how combat armor with upgrades in ME and without upgrades in ME2 injects it automatically into damaged tissue? Is it so hard to imagine, that while medigel cannot stop death it can at least conserve the brain? Actually some plants are able to do something not unlike this. They add in special molecules into their structure when drying out. Thus the cells remain intact, although they are not functioning and basically dead. When water gets introduced into the system again, those molecules get washed out and the plant comes to life again.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

If the BioWare writers don't capitalize on this in ME3, it will have been a wasted opportunity and we'll all know it was simply a cheap way to 'reset' the series for ME2.

I honestly don't think they will, but you never know.

In any event, as it has been said several times now, the main point of all this is to simply "reintroduce" Shepard in specific and the Mass Effect universe in general. BioWare realizes that there are people who haven't and will never play the previous game(s), so they take that into account. They just chose to do it this way.

In light of this, it's pretty much guaranteed that Shepard will get busted to the ground again in the time period separating ME2 and ME3. And given the current state of the story, an imprisonment is the single most likely candidate as to how this will be done again.

[krimesh]

^^

I think Bioware will be able to come up with something better than this.

[Fiery Phoenix]

krimesh wrote...

^^
I think Bioware will be able to come up with something better than this.

It could be anything; I was only saying that an imprisonment subplot would be the most fitting given how the story has advanced thus far.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 18 septembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[General User]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

General User wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

This is the future, anything is possible, don't bring real world **** into a fictional universe.

Right.  Tell that to BioWare's writing team who took extensive pains to build a hard SF universe built on mostly real-world physics or acceptable quantum theory in the first game.  They should've kept that real world science out of their science fiction!  It's just dragging things down!

Some of us like SF because of the extrapolation of the real world into the fantastic.  The more achievable and realistic the fantastic is, the better.  The Lazarus Project was a massive blow to the very nicely coherent and (mostly) hard SF universe that BioWare had set up, all for a questionable gain.

Exactly. I love Science fiction because  it makes the fantastic believable, and the best (maybe only) way to do that is to use real-world science as it is understood today.
 
That being said… I must disagree on the idea that the Lazarus concept makes ME2 less believable.
 
 If 175 years ago a person who wasn’t breathing and had no pulse was brought to a doctor, the poor bloke would probably have been pronounced dead, today there is a possibility of resuscitation. 
 
The idea that, 175 years from now, people who we consider dead could be candidates for revival (or reconstruction may be a better word) is far from unbelievable.

I can't agree.  After ten minutes of asphyxiation, there is no clinical way to reverse brain death.  You can keep the body processes going, you can keep the heart beating, the body will still live, but the person inside the body is irreversibly gone.  To say that 175 years is all we need to reverse two years of brain death, to say nothing of the destruction of or severe damage to every other part of the body, is optimistic in the extreme and, in my opinion, totally unrealistic.

Now if newShep is a synthetic construct based on brain scans in Alliance medical records, that's a different story.  I can accept spending two years and hundreds of billions of dollars (or whatever the exchange rate to credits is) to create what is essentially an organic geth.  But oldShep from the first game is dead, and will never come back.

If the BioWare writers don't capitalize on this in ME3, it will have been a wasted opportunity and we'll all know it was simply a cheap way to 'reset' the series for ME2.

Two years was the approx. time Cerberus spent rebuilding Shepard. Shepard’s body was acquired by Miranda from Liara relatively quickly. But I take your point.
 
There is no current way to reverse brain death, the progress of medical science over the past two hundred years makes believing this will always be the case easily as fantastic as any resurrection plot. 
 
Nor is time the only factor, the knowledge gained from interacting with alien races is a highly plausible explanation for medicine being advanced even beyond what one would expect even given the passage of time.
 
And so what if Shepard has synthetic (or synthetic portions of) the bones, muscles, organs, or even the brain! People with a prosthetic limb or other artificial components are still the same people they were. If organs and limbs can be regenerated, synthesized or replaced, is it really so improbable to think that the brain might be as well? As you wrote, extremely detailed brain scans could even provide the template. It wouldn’t make Shep any less Shep. S/he would have the same memories,  emotions, sense of identity, etc. 
 
As for ME3, “Reapers make their own Shepard” is one of my favorite theories…

[krimesh]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
It could be anything; I was only saying that an imprisonment subplot would be the most fitting given how the story has advanced thus far.

I just can't wrap my head around Shepard being arrested. It's like arresting a mountain. Besides if the Alliance tries anything like this Anderson will never stop punching people.

[krimesh]

What about his Spectre status? Shepard can get reinstated, even while he is actually working with Cerberus. Only thing that could possibly happen is that Shep gets arrested because of Vasir, but it's not as if there is no evidence against her.

[Gibb_Garrus]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

General User wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

This is the future, anything is possible, don't bring real world **** into a fictional universe.

Right.  Tell that to BioWare's writing team who took extensive pains to build a hard SF universe built on mostly real-world physics or acceptable quantum theory in the first game.  They should've kept that real world science out of their science fiction!  It's just dragging things down!

Some of us like SF because of the extrapolation of the real world into the fantastic.  The more achievable and realistic the fantastic is, the better.  The Lazarus Project was a massive blow to the very nicely coherent and (mostly) hard SF universe that BioWare had set up, all for a questionable gain.

Exactly. I love Science fiction because  it makes the fantastic believable, and the best (maybe only) way to do that is to use real-world science as it is understood today.
 
That being said… I must disagree on the idea that the Lazarus concept makes ME2 less believable.
 
 If 175 years ago a person who wasn’t breathing and had no pulse was brought to a doctor, the poor bloke would probably have been pronounced dead, today there is a possibility of resuscitation. 
 
The idea that, 175 years from now, people who we consider dead could be candidates for revival (or reconstruction may be a better word) is far from unbelievable.

I can't agree.  After ten minutes of asphyxiation, there is no clinical way to reverse brain death.  You can keep the body processes going, you can keep the heart beating, the body will still live, but the person inside the body is irreversibly gone.  To say that 175 years is all we need to reverse two years of brain death, to say nothing of the destruction of or severe damage to every other part of the body, is optimistic in the extreme and, in my opinion, totally unrealistic.

Now if newShep is a synthetic construct based on brain scans in Alliance medical records, that's a different story.  I can accept spending two years and hundreds of billions of dollars (or whatever the exchange rate to credits is) to create what is essentially an organic geth.  But oldShep from the first game is dead, and will never come back.  NewShep is not, technically, a real person.  NewShep is a synthetic.  The major thing that sets newShep apart from a standard AI is that newShep has emotions, something which nobody else has been able to accomplish with an AI up to this point.

If the BioWare writers don't capitalize on this in ME3, it will have been a wasted opportunity and we'll all know it was simply a cheap way to 'reset' the series for ME2.

There is no "Old Shep" and "New Shep". There is shep, only one. He is not an AI ffs. 

In Mass Effect, a FICTIONAL universe set HUNDREDS of years in the future, people can be brought back to life. 

Plus he was recovered very quickly after he was spaced, his brain wasn't dead for two years, where the hell did you get that info from? It took them two years to rebuild him, but not necessarily repair his brain. They could have done that fairly quickly.

Point is, Shepard is not a ****ing AI with emotions, he is not to be compared with a godamn geth, he is still shepard; a person with a few enhancements.

Modifié par Gibb_Garrus, 18 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[General User]

We're all fans here, discussing the ins and outs of a game we all enjoy. No need to get personal

[krimesh]

Why should it though?

[krimesh]

^^

Okay, read it. Doesn't convince me though. Remember what it took to get Saren's status revoked? Vasir just shows how far a Spectre can go, and that only another Spectre can stop it. Besides I get the feeling that the Council lets Shepard do run around, just in case his "Reaper" theory turns out to be true. What other motivation could they have had to reinstate the Commander, while the same was working with Cerberus?

A small excursion to Citadel space won't change matters. Besides, a Spectre cannot by deffiniton commit a crime. Torture, killing, threatening - a Spectre may choose to do those things, if he or she deems it necessary.

[General User]

I got the impression that the naval intelligence major who sent the email to Adm. Hackett was planning on detaining and questioning Shepard, not arresting him. That’s an important distinction in my mind.



Bringing in operatives who exhibit unusual behaviors (which is the very least you can say about Shepard), seems to be a reasonable thing for an intelligence agency to do, even if it would have been monumentally stupid (on a couple levels) in this case. Shepard is a galactic hero who, by the very nature of his job (Spectre and N7), swims in some very murky waters.



The right call in this case was to call Shepard personally and ask him/her to explain themselves. This is exactly what happens when Shepard goes to speak to the Council. I would be very surprised if the subject of “Shepard” doesn’t come up frequently when ever Adm. Hackett and Councilor Anderson speak, which is likely to be often. Each should have all the info the other has on our favorite N7.



If this major sent the request to detain Shepard after Shep visited the Council, that major should have been relieved of duty.

[Fiery Phoenix]

General User wrote...

We're all fans here, discussing the ins and outs of a game we all enjoy. No need to get personal

Seconded.

[krimesh]

^^
Well, it never crossed my mind that the Alliance would actually try to detain a Spectre, or that the council would revoke Shepard's Spectre status. And you are not convincing me that any of this is plausible at the moment. As far as I know there is no recording of Shepard saying that his attack on some colony with a prothean relic of interest to the council was a major victory.
Saren's status was revoked when it became clear that he was planing a war against the council. Shepard never ever did anything like that. Conections to Legion? Well, Shepard made peace with the main faction of the Geth who never attacked Council space. Good work. Hell, they did not even revoke Shepard's status for freeing a Rachni queen!

Modifié par krimesh, 18 septembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

krimesh wrote...

^^
Well, it never crossed my mind that the Alliance would actually try to detain a Spectre, or that the council would revoke Shepard's Spectre status. And you are not convincing me that any of this is plausible at the moment. As far as I know there is no recording of Shepard saying that his attack on some colony with a prothean relic of interest to the council was a major victory.
Saren's status was revoked when it became clear that he was planing a war against the council. Shepard never ever did anything like that. Conections to Legion? Well, Shepard made peace with the main faction of the Geth who never attacked Council space. Good work. Hell, they did not even revoke Shepard's status for freeing a Rachni queen!

Believe me, Krim, the Alliance doesn't view it the way you do. The fact that Shepard was directly involved in a major Cerberus operation and was one of them (although temporarily) is enough justification for the Alliance to want to bring Shepard in. This is even hinted on in the Hackett dossiers, despite Hackett's response.

[krimesh]

^^
That would require the council's cooperation, and it is not clear whether they would cooperate on this or not. I see where you people are coming from, but I can't see some Alliance idiot stalling Shepard. EDIT: Those people were not even able to get past Hackett. How are they supposed to get at Sheaprd? I don't see them as a threat.  Another reason to look forward to ME3 though. We will only know for sure, when we play it.

Modifié par krimesh, 18 septembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Lyrandori]

In my opinion...



Because Shepard would have never accepted to "work for" nor "work with" Cerberus on his/her own, on purpose in his/her life time, the only way for Shepard to end up "with" or "at" Cerberus and finally resign on the context and situation and resume the "work with them" is by killing Shepard. In fact I WOULD certainly think that Shepard, alive, would have said something along the lines of « I'd rather die than join Cerberus » ... so that's how I see it, it's a plot mechanism that explains (or excuses) the acceptance of the situation by Shepard and the "why" and "how" he/she ended up with Cerberus.



If they hadn't killed Shepard we'd have still played with the Alliance in ME2, I'd bet money on it, but at this point we'll never know, and honestly there's no purpose in trying to know why they decided to do it, we can't force the writer nor BioWare to make a completely new alternative ME2 story based on "what if Shepard had survived the attack".

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

krimesh wrote...

^^
Well, it never crossed my mind that the Alliance would actually try to detain a Spectre, or that the council would revoke Shepard's Spectre status.

The Council and Alliance would probably cooperate to make it happen. Either the Council was saved and so the Alliance is on good terms with them or the Council died and is now basically just an extension of the Alliance.

Actually the Council already did revoke Shepard's status once simply because they believed him dead. When he was found to be alive, it was Anderson who called Shepard back to the Citadel. It wasn't an official council summons. Shepard was never directly informed of the change in status, nor was the rest of the galaxy.

There are no news bulletins nor any suggestion anywhere of any treason on the part of Shepard, nor was Shepard ever officially announced dead, nor was there any suggestion that Shepard might have chosen retirement. Even Conrad simply laments that Shepard simply 'vanished.' He doesn't say anything about the Council betraying Shepard or revoking Shep's status.

So if noone is actually informed (other than Shepard's clearance at the Citadel, which was assumed by Bailey to be an oversight), in what way was Shepard's status even really revoked. The only one who seems to mention being a former Spectre is Shepard, if he helps the Quarian accused of stealing the credit chit.

I guess what I am saying is that no matter what we theorize, Bioware has made it clear they will "ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL. "