148 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

Terraneaux wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
 Having her actually attack Shepard in ME3 would be very out-of-character.

I disagree.  She's willing to kill for the code; six or six trillion, she's still willing to do it.  Her code isn't about preserving lives, it's about ass-backwards archaic ideas about honor and 'eye-for-an-eye' style justice.  

Yeah, and Bioware really dropped the ball with the lack of a dossier for Morinth (or putting Samara's in).  I think they are just ignoring the idea that Morinth is even a viable character option.

Kind of hard not to considering how much Bioware left wanting in regards to Morinth, but still made sure that everyone and their grandmother viewed her as a pariah who probably didn't have any drives beyond what makes her stronger or future goals she may have had.  It's probably for the best though.  If they had made Morinth to be absolutely hellbent on just killing people to sustain her I would write Bioware off as good story tellers completely.

[BHRamsay]

I realize everyone is tired of of someone harping on this point but....Hello...Nef, anyone....Nef's mom? Was this not a significant enough reason to put the kibosh on the Morinth's whirlwind tour of the Terminus Systems?



Yes I get the whole sexy-evil motif is compelling as hell but she slaughtered a lonely girl whose only crime was wanting to be loved for her talents ... Call me provincial if you want but in my book, that's wrong.

[Xeranx]

BHRamsay wrote...

I realize everyone is tired of of someone harping on this point but....Hello...Nef, anyone....Nef's mom? Was this not a significant enough reason to put the kibosh on the Morinth's whirlwind tour of the Terminus Systems?

No.  I don't find it a significant enough reason to kill Morinth.  Why?  Because the circumstances aren't known.  Morinth killed her, but we don't really have a good case for why.  I'll come back to this later.

That portion of Samara's mission was the best avenue for investigation that we were never given the chance to explore.  One of Shepard's responses is "When we have all the facts..." or something to that effect, but as soon as we get to the club it's "this is how we'll lure Morinth out so we can kill her".  We get some idea that we'll have branched paths to take, but are put back on rails to an outcome that doesn't have any real justification for it.  I find it utterly juvenile it how it doesn't expand on the investigation piece that was hinted to come later.  What's worse is that this was hinted at just minutes earlier.  It goes from Morinth is a suspect to she's the killer with nothing in between.

BHRamsay wrote...
Yes I get the whole sexy-evil motif is compelling as hell but she slaughtered a lonely girl whose only crime was wanting to be loved for her talents ... Call me provincial if you want but in my book, that's wrong.

If you thought people were tired of others bringing up Nef, I would say that this grates on me a lot more considering it is a prelude to how you view anyone who likes the Morinth character.  It implies that those who like Morinth are your constantly alluded to average horny teenage male.  If that were the case I'd be clamoring for more shots of Miranda's rear, but the funny thing is I couldn't care less about Miranda's assets or that Samara's boobs are almost out in full view or even that Jack's belt bra should have me begging for a nip slip.  I found most of those nigh insulting to me as a straight male because it assumed that that's what I'd go for.  The PG-13 that Hudson said he wanted seems to have been achieved in this regard as far as I'm concerned.

You say that Nef was killed for simply wanting to be loved for her talents.  In Morinth I see someone who would like to love unconditionally.   The psychological aspects raised in many areas of the game would have been fun and interesting to explore, but they're raised and simply left to rot never to be touched again.  Maybe I'm romanticising Morinth, but I truly wanted to get her side of things.  We are given so much about Samara and from Samara and then get nothing from her daughter.  Also the fact that Samara tells us her daughter "goes by the name Morinth" and never calls her daughter by her given name in the confrontation is a big let down.

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

[Dr. Megaverse]

Any Shepard that recruits Morinth is bat**** insane anyways...

My Shepard's galaxy is a little bit safer for spacing her...

[Dr. Megaverse]

Xeranx wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I realize everyone is tired of of someone harping on this point but....Hello...Nef, anyone....Nef's mom? Was this not a significant enough reason to put the kibosh on the Morinth's whirlwind tour of the Terminus Systems?

No.  I don't find it a significant enough reason to kill Morinth.  Why?  Because the circumstances aren't known.  Morinth killed her, but we don't really have a good case for why.  I'll come back to this later.

That portion of Samara's mission was the best avenue for investigation that we were never given the chance to explore.  One of Shepard's responses is "When we have all the facts..." or something to that effect, but as soon as we get to the club it's "this is how we'll lure Morinth out so we can kill her".  We get some idea that we'll have branched paths to take, but are put back on rails to an outcome that doesn't have any real justification for it.  I find it utterly juvenile it how it doesn't expand on the investigation piece that was hinted to come later.  What's worse is that this was hinted at just minutes earlier.  It goes from Morinth is a suspect to she's the killer with nothing in between.

BHRamsay wrote...
Yes I get the whole sexy-evil motif is compelling as hell but she slaughtered a lonely girl whose only crime was wanting to be loved for her talents ... Call me provincial if you want but in my book, that's wrong.

If you thought people were tired of others bringing up Nef, I would say that this grates on me a lot more considering it is a prelude to how you view anyone who likes the Morinth character.  It implies that those who like Morinth are your constantly alluded to average horny teenage male.  If that were the case I'd be clamoring for more shots of Miranda's rear, but the funny thing is I couldn't care less about Miranda's assets or that Samara's boobs are almost out in full view or even that Jack's belt bra should have me begging for a nip slip.  I found most of those nigh insulting to me as a straight male because it assumed that that's what I'd go for.  The PG-13 that Hudson said he wanted seems to have been achieved in this regard as far as I'm concerned.

You say that Nef was killed for simply wanting to be loved for her talents.  In Morinth I see someone who would like to love unconditionally.   The psychological aspects raised in many areas of the game would have been fun and interesting to explore, but they're raised and simply left to rot never to be touched again.  Maybe I'm romanticising Morinth, but I truly wanted to get her side of things.  We are given so much about Samara and from Samara and then get nothing from her daughter.  Also the fact that Samara tells us her daughter "goes by the name Morinth" and never calls her daughter by her given name in the confrontation is a big let down.

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

Sorry, I read your wall-o-text justification for why Morinth is ok and I don't buy it. 

Shes a serial killer. 

A sociopath. 

Regardless of how much you think she was "wronged" it doesn't make it right to go out and kill people for 400 years. 

She gets the airlock. 

[PsyrenY]

Mummolus wrote...

Also dominate is awesome.

I picked it up for completeness then reloaded my save and killed the crazy ****. Lorewise though it makes absolutely no sense to be learnable (Biotics Do Not Work That Way except for Asari, Rachni and possibly Hanar) so I haven't been able to convince myself to use it.

As for Morinth, even her SISTERS want her dead/stopped, and they are AY too!

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Xeranx]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

Sorry, I read your wall-o-text justification for why Morinth is ok and I don't buy it. 

Shes a serial killer. 

A sociopath. 

Regardless of how much you think she was "wronged" it doesn't make it right to go out and kill people for 400 years. 

She gets the airlock. 

Should I assume you feel Samara is better?  If I may be allowed to do so, need I remind you that Samara is a willing mass murderer?  Samara tells you that Morinth brainwashed people on an Asari world, but she willingly tells you that she killed every single adult and left the children in someone else's care?  

Thinking that Samara is that powerful I would think that she would be able to subdue whom she can so they can raise the kids left over, but that didn't happen.  Oh, that's right.  She is bound by her code and will perform as her code directs her:  "We will spread westward and settle the Californias.  And we will wipe out any and all savages who attempt to thwart our attempts to settle west.  It is our God given right."  "I was just following orders."

Maybe it's more a case of: "then you start to like it" (paraphrasing Grosse Point Blank).

Samara's justfication cracks under any scrutiny you employ when talking to her.  
Shepard: "Sounds like you."
Samara: "And you too."

Samara states that she has a deep seated belief in her code, but she feels she has to justify her actions at every turn.

Morinth has 400 years to kill people.  Samara didn't have that same length of time herself to kill people to get information out of them?  Yet she's a pillar of virtue.  Samara states that she would intentionally upset the balance of a world's law and order to get to one person by killing any police officer that attempted to detain her for her violent actions.  What?  What's more is that she says this in the presence of a police officer.  Yet she's a pillar of virtue.  I'd imagine that Samara's body count is higher than Morinth's given what we know about her.  In fact I'd bet it eclipses Morinth's body count, but Morinth is the bad guy.

Of course this is all stated under the premise that I'm allowed to assume that you feel Samara is better.

One last thing: I never said Morinth was ok.  I said I don't feel Nef's death is justification for her to be killed.  We don't know what the circumstances were (again) that led to Nef's death.  There's a slew of things that could have happened especially on Omega where someone dying is just a regular occurrence.

[Dean_the_Young]

We're supposed to care about if someone's psychotic or not? About such a pitiful death toll?

Us? Shepard? The (wo)man who sets out to recruit a war criminal who effectively re-established a 99.9% still birth rate across an entire species, a euginics-happy mad scientist, said mad scientist's blood-thirsty savage, two vigilantes who kill more on an average week than Morinth does in a year, one of whom feels obliged to wipe out entire police stations if they get in her way, an alien who has repeatedly defended the attempted genocide of an infant AI race, and of course one such AI gestalt who, at the time, the only proof it wasn't part of the same group that attempted galactic genocide was its word?

And those are just the aliens. You know, not the human-supremacist group operatives, the kleptomaniac serial burgler, a(nother) unrepentant sociopath considered the worst of the worst of the galaxy's worst criminals, or Zaeed God-Damn Massani.

And we're supposed to be all aghast at a sex-murderer who kills rarely, with the more or less seduced consent of her prey? Just because we saw one crying mother? As opposed to, say, all the orphans, wives, and lovers of all the mercenaries we killed just to get to that point?

Morinth fits right in.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Elyvern]

I usually choose to save Samara during her loyalty quest, but on one of my renegade playthroughs I saved Morinth instead. Now, it's true that she doesn't have as many lines as Samara on board the Normandy, but I appreciated getting the other side of the story: how she felt Samara was a cold mother and how her (Morinth)'s escapade could be seen as someone who decided not to be controlled by her own fate. It really brought back what Samara said about Morinth running away from a death sentence when she was literally a mere child. In a weird sense, she was the best of Samara's daughters.

I'd still kill Morinth off on my other playthroughs, but I appreciated knowing all that about her.

[Killjoy Cutter]

BHRamsay wrote...

I realize everyone is tired of of someone harping on this point but....Hello...Nef, anyone....Nef's mom? Was this not a significant enough reason to put the kibosh on the Morinth's whirlwind tour of the Terminus Systems?

Yes I get the whole sexy-evil motif is compelling as hell but she slaughtered a lonely girl whose only crime was wanting to be loved for her talents ... Call me provincial if you want but in my book, that's wrong.

Agreed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xeranx wrote...

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

Morinth killed Nef, as she killed many others. 

Pretending something else might have happened... well, never mind, I'm trying to be civil. 

We know that Morinth didn't need to kill to survive -- we have the existance of Samara's other two daughters, alive and not killing, as proof of that.

Morinth killed for enjoyment, and nothing else.  There's no other side to that, no justification, and there can be no sympathy.  She was a monster.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Himmelstor]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

Morinth killed Nef, as she killed many others. 

Pretending something else might have happened... well, never mind, I'm trying to be civil. 

We know that Morinth didn't need to kill to survive -- we have the existance of Samara's other two daughters, alive and not killing, as proof of that.

Morinth killed for enjoyment, and nothing else.  There's no other side to that, no justification, and there can be no sympathy.  She was a monster.

Morinth kills for addiction. It may increase Morinth's power, but Samara says outright that Ardat-Yakshi get a narcotic effect from their victims. And the other option is a gilded-cage imprisonment. It's less of a choice than one would think.
Morinth may be 'evil' now, but she started running when she was forty. How evil was she then, when Samara started hunting her?

For Samara: She hunted what she thought a monster by becoming one.
For Morinth: The only way to have any semblence of freedom was to be a monster

Modifié par Himmelstor, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Himmelstor wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

Morinth killed Nef, as she killed many others. 

Pretending something else might have happened... well, never mind, I'm trying to be civil. 

We know that Morinth didn't need to kill to survive -- we have the existance of Samara's other two daughters, alive and not killing, as proof of that.

Morinth killed for enjoyment, and nothing else.  There's no other side to that, no justification, and there can be no sympathy.  She was a monster.

Morinth kills for addiction. It may increase Morinth's power, but Samara says outright that Ardat-Yakshi get a narcotic effect from their victims. And the other option is a gilded-cage imprisonment. It's less of a choice than one would think.
Morinth may be 'evil' now, but she started running when she was forty. How evil was she then, when Samara started hunting her?

For Samara: She hunted what she thought a monster by becoming one.
For Morinth: The only way to have any semblence of freedom was to be a monster

Do you have any sympathy for people who murder to get money for a drug habit?  

We always have a choice.  Morinth made her choice, and continued to make her choice.   

And if she was no longer acting on choice, no longer capable of making a choice, then she was just an animal that needed to be put down.

[Ashira Shepard]

Himmelstor wrote...

Morinth kills for addiction. It may increase Morinth's power, but Samara says outright that Ardat-Yakshi get a narcotic effect from their victims. And the other option is a gilded-cage imprisonment. It's less of a choice than one would think.
Morinth may be 'evil' now, but she started running when she was forty. How evil was she then, when Samara started hunting her?

For Samara: She hunted what she thought a monster by becoming one.
For Morinth: The only way to have any semblence of freedom was to be a monster

I would ask what you're basing that on, but all most will do is point out "she's a murderer as well, she's no better!"

What some don't seem to realize is that while, yes, she would have had to kill people because her code demanded it such as the police officers, 98% of her kills are likely to be criminals. Her code strictly demands that she protect the innocent, therefore she cannot and will not hurt them unless they attack her. Preaching "thou shalt not kill" in some form or another isn't all that great when you consider that any pawns Morinth may have used against her mother might have been armed, therefore able to kill Samara; so she had use lethal force.

The problem with the Samara character is that most can't get their head around how someone can so blindly follow a strict black and white Code such as hers. Someone who deals in absolutes can seem like a heartless killer to many; they don't care about the why.

Don't get me wrong, I find Morinth interesting, and I'm inclined to be sympathetic. When she ran, it was probably just the want of getting away that went through her mind, not killing. But fastforward 400 years and the thought of her victims makes her death seem like long-awaited vengeance.

[Ashira Shepard]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
And if she was no longer acting on choice, no longer capable of making a choice, then she was just an animal that needed to be put down.

I'm inclined to agree, considering what all of this could do to someone's mind from where she and her sisters discovered they were AY, to her running, killing and over the 400 years of knowing this was her life. No love, no family, no true bond with any living being.

In that respect, killing her is almost a mercy.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
 Having her actually attack Shepard in ME3 would be very out-of-character.

I disagree, yorkj86, but not for the same reason as Terraneaux. I can elaborate in the Samara thread if you'd like.

Terraneaux wrote...
I disagree.  She's willing to kill for the code; six or six trillion, she's still willing to do it.  Her code isn't about preserving lives, it's about ass-backwards archaic ideas about honor and 'eye-for-an-eye' style justice.

False. The Code aims at protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty. The example of her encounter with Nihlus confirms it. The continued existence of the Order in a global networked democracy indicates the Code (whatever it is) is aligned with the asari concensus of justice. If it wasn't, the Justicars would have been eradicated like the Templars on medieval Earth. The Code may not be perfect (no system of Law ever is) but it works for the asari.

Yeah, and Bioware really dropped the ball with the lack of a dossier for Morinth (or putting Samara's in).  I think they are just ignoring the idea that Morinth is even a viable character option.

True, Bioware used the "Morinth disguises herself as her mother" trick to save themselves work. But Shepard IS the only one who knows: to the Shadowbroker, only Samara survived and Morinth is dead... so there's little point in keeping a dossier on her.

[jwalker]

Flamewielder wrote...

True, Bioware used the "Morinth disguises herself as her mother" trick to save themselves work. But Shepard IS the only one who knows: to the Shadowbroker, only Samara survived and Morinth is dead... so there's little point in keeping a dossier on her.

No. Talk to Kasumi (after the SM). She tells you, she warns you. "Shepard, don't listen to Morinth. She will kill you"
Or something like that.

[Roamingmachine]

I was kinda disappointed that Morinth didn't have a dossier.The sb certainly knew who she was and would have porpably been flagged in her and Samaras' files that she had replaced her.Something like the Garrus kill list but a lot more grim would have fitted perfectly along with, say, personal correspondence from her youth before she ran away.



As for for keeping her instead of Samara, my renegades keep her because she is far more useful than her mother.Not just her combat talents but her talent for persuasion could be infinitely useful in the days to come.So long as you remember that she's toxic.Shepard isn't exactly collecting these people because of their stellar morals anyway.Who she killed and why don't really matter to my renegade characters or me and i actually like it that, unlike some members of the crew, she doesn't try to explain it away.She's an unrepentant murderer and i can respect that a lot more than someone who tries to justify what can't be justified.She'll fit in well with the various murderers and Mengeles you allready have on your crew.So would Samara, though.

[Xeranx]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Nef's death is tragic, but again we don't know the reasons for her death.  We don't know how or why she was given the password and let into the VIP portion of Afterlife.  There's so much disjointed pieces that just don't fit.  It seems like Morinth was ham-fisted into being Nef's killer, but regarding the aforementioned lack of reasons for Nef being in the VIP section to begin with I can't really believe that it was intended for Morinth to be the killer.  At least not in the way it's alluded if she was to be at all.  

Morinth killed Nef, as she killed many others. 

Pretending something else might have happened... well, never mind, I'm trying to be civil. 

We know that Morinth didn't need to kill to survive -- we have the existance of Samara's other two daughters, alive and not killing, as proof of that.

Morinth killed for enjoyment, and nothing else.  There's no other side to that, no justification, and there can be no sympathy.  She was a monster.

Why would pretending something else may have happened be stupid, idiotic, naive or infinitely assinine?  There's no stated reason as to why it happened.  I know what we got in game.  I also know that there could have been many things that led to that encounter.  Morinth is a calculating individual which means she will safeguard herself first before doing anything unconscionable.   While, admittedly, she can be found abhorrent considering what she does she is miles better than a single raving lunatic (mind you I'm not implying that Samara is the raving lunatic). 

The idea that the guy we meet on entering the VIP section is completely safe from Morinth, but wouldn't be safe from Samara speaks volumes.  If Samara had to go in herself she would lay waste to anyone who put up the slightest resistance whereas Morinth has already seen them (many times over) and not touched a single one.  That's what I feel to be the secondary reason for sending Shepard in to talk to Morinth and lure her to somewhere away from the crowd.  But wait, if she knew to employ Shepard to avoid needless killing couldn't she have done the same in that Asari village?  I don't mean use Shepard, but knock out those under control rather than kill them outright leaving a mass amount of orphans in her wake.

We don't know that Morinth doesn't need to kill to survive.  In fact I'd say she relies on it because of the benefits she incurs with completion of every act.  She's being hunted by her mother for choosing something other than death or exile.  Also, who's to say she isn't using her burgeoning intellect to find some way to fix her situation.  She would be an infinitely poor character if she only existed as a one or two-demensional character.

To the bolded part all I'll ask is: Where is your proof?

[Himmelstor]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I would ask what you're basing that on, but all most will do is point out "she's a murderer as well, she's no better!"

What some don't seem to realize is that while, yes, she would have had to kill people because her code demanded it such as the police officers, 98% of her kills are likely to be criminals. Her code strictly demands that she protect the innocent, therefore she cannot and will not hurt them unless they attack her. Preaching "thou shalt not kill" in some form or another isn't all that great when you consider that any pawns Morinth may have used against her mother might have been armed, therefore able to kill Samara; so she had use lethal force.

The problem with the Samara character is that most can't get their head around how someone can so blindly follow a strict black and white Code such as hers. Someone who deals in absolutes can seem like a heartless killer to many; they don't care about the why.

Don't get me wrong, I find Morinth interesting, and I'm inclined to be sympathetic. When she ran, it was probably just the want of getting away that went through her mind, not killing. But fastforward 400 years and the thought of her victims makes her death seem like long-awaited vengeance.

Did I ever claim to be against corporal punishment?

Samara is not Thane Krios. She is from a species that still takes personal responsibiliy. Just because she follows a Code does not excuse her from taking on the role of judge, jury, and executioner outright. The code has nothing to do with morals. Anyone who would willingly follow such a code is either desperate or already a little twisted.

Between Morinth and Samara? Honestly, if I had the option I would kill both. The galaxy would be better off without a hedonistic mind-vampire and a throwback to Dark Ages law and order. But of the two, the one that's been running for four hundred years from her own mother has more sympathy from me.

But in my playthroughs I have saved Samara and Morinth about equally. I tend to choose according to what I need. Morinth's abilities, like Dominate, is more useful to mee when playing an Infiltrator, and Samara's are better for a Vanguard.

[Alixen]

Wow, interesting thread here.



After reading through I have to admit, I see Morinth in a new light. I never considered before that she was little more than a scared child initially that simply wanted to be free. I knew; but the depth behind it never clicked. Nor the idea that she has been running from her own mother for hundreds of years, knowing that all that awaits her when they meet again will be her death. I can certainly see how that would make the fact that she becomes for powerful the more she 'feeds' even more of a draw. Then the addiction bit kicks in, and before you know it you have the cruel murderess that is Morinth.



Nor had I thought on Samara. It's true that if you look at her actions, she is potentially more of a monster than Morinth depending on your point of view.



This thread has certainly given a few more views on the characters, and I think my Renegade will definatly be picking Morinth up after all.

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

Dr. Megaverse wrote...



Shes a serial killer. 

A sociopath. 

So is Samara.

Samara operates with a code of conduct that while harsh is still recognized by the Asari, and does stop slavers, and others from hurting people.
Morinth is a 400 year old serial killer who gets off on mind raping innocent people for power and the sick thrill of it.

There is no comparison outside of them both doing what they feel they must.