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[Xeranx]

BHRamsay wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Dr. Megaverse wrote...



Shes a serial killer. 

A sociopath. 

So is Samara.

Actually no Samara isn't a Sociopath...a central feature of sociopathy is a compulsion to lie and decieve both onesself and those around you, like Morinth does. Say what you want about Samara but she dies not lie to you or to herself about what she does or why she does it.

Sociopaths also show little or no empathy or remorse --- Samara shows both if you care to chat with her enough. 

Sociopaths also show poor impulse and behaviour control --- often they will mock those who do not share their mindset or beliefs. Take a more paragon path through the seduction scene and Morinth will make fun of Shep's morality and aw shucks wonderment at the world around you. 

Samara on the otherhand, will accept Shep's views regarding her beliefs and devotion to the code. She will respond and defend her ideals but she never says that you are wrong in what you think of her or about the code.

Yes she took down the Eclipse Sisters --- brutally --- but she also implies that had they given her the name of the ship when she had asked for it they would still be alive. 

You want to call her brutal and harsh go right ahead, but that veiwpoint says more about the Shep you are playing then it does about Samara. She gives you a huge clue where she is coming from when she compares herself to a Samurai. The Bushido Code is harsh and uncomprimising for a reason, becasue its purpose was to encourage it's followers to be a symbol to the people they served and ruled over.

In otherwords to be a paragon ---nuff said.

When I looked up the Bushido Code this is what I got:

This is about doing the right thing or making the right decision, not because it's easy, but because it's ethically and morally correct.
No matter the outcome or result, one does not lose face if tempering proper justice.

Now I'm not sure how correct that is, but if it's close Samara's code doesn't look into morality.  A combatant is a combatant and the reasons for why they are mean nothing.  So a person feeling they are in danger and wanting to save themselves takes up arms against Samara is marked for death.

[DOYOURLABS]

Xeranx wrote...

Now I'm not sure how correct that is, but if it's close Samara's code doesn't look into morality.  A combatant is a combatant and the reasons for why they are mean nothing.  So a person feeling they are in danger and wanting to save themselves takes up arms against Samara is marked for death.

If you are referring to the situation with the village, Morinth had them brainwashed beyond help. If you are referring to Samara killing the Eclipse sisters, all of them were murderers. Remember what Pitne For said about how they get there uniform? Murder is the initiation test. 

[ObserverStatus]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Now I'm not sure how correct that is, but if it's close Samara's code doesn't look into morality.  A combatant is a combatant and the reasons for why they are mean nothing.  So a person feeling they are in danger and wanting to save themselves takes up arms against Samara is marked for death.

If you are referring to the situation with the village, Morinth had them brainwashed beyond help. If you are referring to Samara killing the Eclipse sisters, all of them were murderers. Remember what Pitne For said about how they get there uniform? Murder is the initiation test. 

Even if the villagers were brainwashed, does that make it ethical to murder them?

[NICKjnp]

Morinth's SB dossier says... Death by Snu Snu!

[DOYOURLABS]

 

bobobo878 wrote...

Even if the villagers were brainwashed, does that make it ethical to murder them?

No, it they hadn't attacked. Samara would have done her best to make sure they were hostile before attacking, that's what the code demands. The villagers attacked to let Morinth get away, and if Morinth got away, more people would meet the same fate. Samara had to sacrifice the villagers to try to prevent more of them from meeting the same end. Were the villager beyond saving? We don't have the information to answer that. But Samara can't just break everyone from brainwashing in the middle of a gunfight.

Shandepared wrote...


Pitne For said it so it must be true. Who needs courts and civil trials?

It was confirmed by the eclipse sister. Remember the one that was hiding, and you had a chance to let her live or not? Then there was a file that said she was an eclipse sister now that she murdered the volus? 

[upsettingshorts]

It's also more or less confirmed if you bring Zaeed:

"That's an Eclipse uniform. Up against the wall." Or somesuch.

I think Zaeed has as much knowledge of mercs and their reputation as, well, anybody. He's a pretty good source. Anyway, now I have to scroll up to see how that merc came up in the first place.

Edit:  Ah, different sister.  Still, Zaeed says it about one later just based on the uniform.  Still applies.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[stewie1974]

hmmmm if the villagers were attacking because they were brainwashed and giving morinth time to get away, couldn't samara have just used a biotic shockwave ((not that she has shockwave in game, but she can certiantly create a biotic barrier and knock everyone down on the collector ship)) and just kept knocking them on their asses as she chased morinth?


Surely it would take more effort to engage each of them in melee and shoot them, then it would just to shockwave past them and chase morinth..... just a thought.

 I mean they were "villagers " right... not well armed mercenaries..... or highly trained asari commandos.....but you know ..simple villagers... if she meant, well armed and well trained commandos, you think she would have said.

Modifié par stewie1974, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Morinth's SB dossier says... Death by Snu Snu!

Feel the power of the Ardat Yakshi!

I'd never hurt you Shepard!  You are like nobody I have ever met.

[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Morinth's SB dossier says... Death by Snu Snu!

Feel the power of the Ardat Yakshi!

I'd never hurt you Shepard!  You are like nobody I have ever met.

"You have the Prothean Cipher" (or whatever she says). Yeeeeah...sure....ok.  Well...just come on over here then, I think I'll take the chance.  While I'm at it, I might as well spin the cylinder and pull the trigger.

*evil smile*  "Embrace eternity!"

[Giggles_Manically]

Im trying not to laugh here but people are following the line of reasoning that its the right thing to recruit a 400 serial killer who kills for pleasure is better than her mother who kills the poor widdle mercs.



Wow. Samara has a dumb code for sure. Morinth has none.

I dont care what people say I am not going to recruit a 400 years serial killer.

[Boombox]

I don't think we can apply our reasoning to any of Samara's actions. She's a Justicar, she follows Asari law. She doesn't kill people because she wants to, she does it because she's doing her job.

Sure, in our culture the codes 'no grey area' doesn't make any sense but she's not a part of our culture. If she went to Earth and starting killing people she'd face our laws but in Asari culture Samara is just doing what she's supposed to.



Anyway, it's a shame Morinth doesn't have some kind of dossier.

[Xeranx]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Xeranx wrote...



I'm sorry but "harsh" doesn't begin to explain what those Asari children may feel.  

Morinth: One woman.  Many victims over the course of 400 years.  Possibly left parents without children or children without parents.  All this because of a biological condition.

Samara: One woman.  Many victims over the course of 400 years.  Has indeed left parents without children (considering her MO) and has left hundreds (playing it safe though I believe it's more because it was a village and not a hamlet) of children parentless.  This from her own mouth.  She does this because she follows a flawed code that doesn't allow for gray though she saw a gray area and used Shepard to facilitate moving Morinth to a secluded location to prevent having to kill those in the VIP section.  She does this willfully and you still think Morinth is worse?

That village was left untouched save a few people Morinth chose out of the masses.  Samara is a whirlwind of death that only knows combat/non-combatant and whatever side you fall on depends on what choices you, the potential victim/survivor, make.  I call that a hostage situation.

For one, it's Morinth's fault the people of the village died, not Samara. Samara was simply defending herself and trying to reach Morinth, so she couldn't do this again. The villages were probably armed or using biotics. The children would have died if not for Samara.

For one, we don't know who attacked first and we don't know exactly if the villagers attacked at Morinth's word or if they perceived Samara as a threat and then attacked.  The children would have died because of Samara?  For one who would tell me to do research and get my facts straight you haven't done so well in this regard have you?  Samara conciously left the children alone.  She took their parents out however.  Considering she has the means to not hurt someone I'm stumped as to why each and every child in that village was orphaned.  Of course we don't know how long the brainwashing lasts, but I believe Samara can do what Morinth can and about the time that said village slaughter occurred Morinth wasn't a match for Samara.  Evidence in game shows that Morinth was a match for Samara.  Before you tell me to do research again and get my facts straight. 

DOYOURLABS wrote...
Second, just because Morinth has a condition, doesn't justify hunting and killing innocents. She forced them against their will to sleep with her, and that killed them. She's a monster. When she ran away, she could have hid herself. Instead, she murdered people.

I gave theories as to how everything might not be exactly how it appeared.  And I'm a bit disgusted that people would think Samara is a shining pillar of all that is good despite how she, in all probability, has a higher death count than her daughter who is a quote/unquote serial killer.

I don't want to justify her actions in killing innocents, but I'm willing to give her latitude in some cases if she's killing mercs and such.  For instance I felt that Wasea allowed Morinth to stay because she could use Morinth as a probable deterrent against uprisings and disobedience.  Of course that's if I was writing the character and have her trying to find some way to cure herself so that she doesn't have to be hunted anymore.

As far as Morinth going into hiding is it not true that Samara pursued her as immediately as possible?  If so, what kind of hiding could she reasonably do?  

DOYOURLABS wrote...
Third, Samara killed people only if her code allowed it. The code is pretty much asari law. Modern law allows more of a grey area, but murders still get punished. The people she stopped were criminals. The reason she had Shepard move Morinth out of the VIP section wasn't to avoid killing everyone. That would be blatantly against the code. She did this to make sure Morinth wouldn't escape to kill again.

Please stop using that line.  I think it's become a crutch for her to use anytime she's questioned about anything she does.  It's not unlike the guy in Memento knowing that he has a condition that stops him from remembering events that happened a few seconds ago, but is able to recall that bit of information every time to recite it to someone new.  It allows for plausible deniability.  Again, "I was just following orders".

The Asari pay reverence to the Justicar, but they've moved beyond that brand of "justice".  Her code is black and white, but her actions have been contrary to what she claims.  When she kills the eclipse merc she tries to justify her actions saying that the merc was armed.  I have a screen shot that says otherwise.  Clearly unarmed and litterly under Samara's heel and she's snuffed out.  You can watch that scene again and see for yourself that the merc is unnarmed.  At that point she's a non-combatant, i.e.: not a threat.

DOYOURLABS wrote...
In short, learn more about a character's motivations and check your facts before you condemn them as a murderer.

Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what Morinth's motivations are because I sure don't.  Do you know that Samara is utterly and completely on the up-and-up with you?  Do you think Samara can never lie to you?  

You feel I'm wrong in labeling Samara as a murderer yet one specific example I've used several times already is pretty damning considering everything.  You contend that her code allows her to kill criminals yet know that those villagers were brainwashed (meaning that they were not in control of themselves) and you still give Samara a pass and make statements that would have me think you feel she's justified in what she does?

[Xeranx]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xeranx wrote...
I'm sorry but "harsh" doesn't begin to explain what those Asari children may feel.  

Morinth: One woman.  Many victims over the course of 400 years.  Possibly left parents without children or children without parents.  All this because of a biological condition.

Samara: One woman.  Many victims over the course of 400 years.  Has indeed left parents without children (considering her MO) and has left hundreds (playing it safe though I believe it's more because it was a village and not a hamlet) of children parentless.  This from her own mouth.  She does this because she follows a flawed code that doesn't allow for gray though she saw a gray area and used Shepard to facilitate moving Morinth to a secluded location to prevent having to kill those in the VIP section.  She does this willfully and you still think Morinth is worse?

That village was left untouched save a few people Morinth chose out of the masses.  Samara is a whirlwind of death that only knows combat/non-combatant and whatever side you fall on depends on what choices you, the potential victim/survivor, make.  I call that a hostage situation.

So the serial killer is the good guy, and the cop is the bad guy?  Or the serial killer is the bad guy, but the cop is just as bad, if not worse?  Cops leave children without parents every day, all over the world, in reality.

The part in bold.

And that's acceptable?  Especially given the circumstances that occur in this story?

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The Justicar Order was created by Asari society.  You condemn Samara, you condemn Asari society. The Justicar is the cop, judge, and executioner rolled up into one.  That's how they operate.  Similar to the "knight" in the "Dark Age".  It is what it is.

If I remember correctly, Asari society doesn't subscribe to that rule of law anymore.  They revere the Justicar and their oath and give them a wide berth, but wholly don't conduct themselves in those ways.  I believe Anaya said as much.  I may be wrong.

Modifié par Xeranx, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Geigerstorm]

jwalker wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

True, Bioware used the "Morinth disguises herself as her mother" trick to save themselves work. But Shepard IS the only one who knows: to the Shadowbroker, only Samara survived and Morinth is dead... so there's little point in keeping a dossier on her.

No. Talk to Kasumi (after the SM). She tells you, she warns you. "Shepard, don't listen to Morinth. She will kill you"
Or something like that.

When this first happened to me with my Renegade, I nearly fell out of my chair. No one knows Samara is Morinth... but you and Kasumi.

I've only played through Shadow Broker once so far, so along these lines, has anyone taken Morinth? I know the SB mentioned Jacob by name when I took him, so I'm wondering what he'd say when you have Morinth in the guise of Samara with you.

[Terraneaux]

Boombox wrote...

I don't think we can apply our reasoning to any of Samara's actions. She's a Justicar, she follows Asari law. She doesn't kill people because she wants to, she does it because she's doing her job.
Sure, in our culture the codes 'no grey area' doesn't make any sense but she's not a part of our culture. If she went to Earth and starting killing people she'd face our laws but in Asari culture Samara is just doing what she's supposed to.

But Samara does go outside of Asari space - Ilium has an Asari majority, but it doesn't follow their laws the same way.  She kills people not under the jurisdiction of Asari law.

[Casuist]

Xeranx wrote...

If I remember correctly, Asari society doesn't subscribe to that rule of law anymore.  They revere the Justicar and their oath and give them a wide berth, but wholly don't conduct themselves in those ways.  I believe Anaya said as much.  I may be wrong.

I believe you're wrong. Several characters (Anaya, Dara) make the point that Illium is not a society suited for Justicars given the necessity, by the code, to gun down people for actions which are commonplace, but they do not state any particular objection to Justicar punishment of Asari. They seem much more concerned about Samara imposing the code upon people who are outside of Asari society and causing an incident. No one questions Samara's right to act under the code.

[Casuist]

Terraneaux wrote...

Boombox wrote...

I don't think we can apply our reasoning to any of Samara's actions. She's a Justicar, she follows Asari law. She doesn't kill people because she wants to, she does it because she's doing her job.
Sure, in our culture the codes 'no grey area' doesn't make any sense but she's not a part of our culture. If she went to Earth and starting killing people she'd face our laws but in Asari culture Samara is just doing what she's supposed to.

But Samara does go outside of Asari space - Ilium has an Asari majority, but it doesn't follow their laws the same way.  She kills people not under the jurisdiction of Asari law.

Samara never kills any non Asari, to our knowledge, except as a member of Shepard's team.

...unless I'm mistaken...