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What does Morinth's SB dossier say?


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#126
AresXX7

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Geigerstorm wrote...

I've only played through Shadow Broker once so far, so along these lines, has anyone taken Morinth? I know the SB mentioned Jacob by name when I took him, so I'm wondering what he'd say when you have Morinth in the guise of Samara with you.


didy listed the entire set of the SB's comments in another thread

Here's the one for Morinth

didymos1120 wrote...

Recruit Morinth and he says:

"I'm surprised the justicar came, T'soni, considering her...changed agenda."


Modifié par AriesXX7, 16 septembre 2010 - 06:52 .


#127
Monochrome Wench

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If people remeber that "they" didn't want Samara on Illium because it was feared there would be a diplomatic incident if she had to kill a non asari she witnessed committing a (petty) crime.

#128
Dean_the_Young

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And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.

Any lack of history of killing non-Asari is because non-Asari are rare in Asari space or because she's failed, not for lack of trying or any prohibition by her code.


Frankly, I've always been dubious about how literally Samara's claim that the villagers were 'brainwashed' by Morinth. Dominate is a cool gameplay power, but it really doesn't have grounding in the lore that we know of: biotics certainly don't work like that. Morinth's powers of coercion are of force of persuasion and personality which can be refused by a strong enough will, and by what we know of her past history all her victims have more or less been willing to do anything for her, even die. She leads them there, and they happily follow by their own volition, but we've never seen her rape or force anyone. She doesn't have to, which is a large part of her danger.

What is to say the villagers were brainwashed, a condition that implies it was both unnatural and against their will? Why can't Morinth have just seduced them all, mind and soul to a point where they wanted to protect her? Plenty of people here will freely admit they'd fight to defend friends and family from an outside attacker, but that doesn't imply brainwashing.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:33 .


#129
BHRamsay

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.

Any lack of history of killing non-Asari is because non-Asari are rare in Asari space or because she's failed, not for lack of trying or any prohibition by her code.


Frankly, I've always been dubious about how literally Samara's claim that the villagers were 'brainwashed' by Morinth. Dominate is a cool gameplay power, but it really doesn't have grounding in the lore that we know of: biotics certainly don't work like that. Morinth's powers of coercion are of force of persuasion and personality which can be refused by a strong enough will, and by what we know of her past history all her victims have more or less been willing to do anything for her, even die. She leads them there, and they happily follow by their own volition, but we've never seen her rape or force anyone. She doesn't have to, which is a large part of her danger.

What is to say the villagers were brainwashed, a condition that implies it was both unnatural and against their will? Why can't Morinth have just seduced them all, mind and soul to a point where they wanted to protect her? Plenty of people here will freely admit they'd fight to defend friends and family from an outside attacker, but that doesn't imply brainwashing.


wait...what?

So your OK with the fact Morinth was cherry picking the best and brightest of that villiage to FEED on?

Your OK with her herding them to certain death when she was clearly capable of saving their lives either by facing her mother herself or by ordering them to stand down since she had enough infuence over them to induce them to fight on her behalf?

Can I assume you also subscribe to the idea that Samara, faced with a villiage of people who doubtlessly were willing to KILL her, should have used minimum force to defend her own life?

#130
Dean_the_Young

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BHRamsay wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.

Any lack of history of killing non-Asari is because non-Asari are rare in Asari space or because she's failed, not for lack of trying or any prohibition by her code.


Frankly, I've always been dubious about how literally Samara's claim that the villagers were 'brainwashed' by Morinth. Dominate is a cool gameplay power, but it really doesn't have grounding in the lore that we know of: biotics certainly don't work like that. Morinth's powers of coercion are of force of persuasion and personality which can be refused by a strong enough will, and by what we know of her past history all her victims have more or less been willing to do anything for her, even die. She leads them there, and they happily follow by their own volition, but we've never seen her rape or force anyone. She doesn't have to, which is a large part of her danger.

What is to say the villagers were brainwashed, a condition that implies it was both unnatural and against their will? Why can't Morinth have just seduced them all, mind and soul to a point where they wanted to protect her? Plenty of people here will freely admit they'd fight to defend friends and family from an outside attacker, but that doesn't imply brainwashing.


wait...what?

So your OK with the fact Morinth was cherry picking the best and brightest of that villiage to FEED on?

Where did I ever say that?

I have this peculiar belief that people should be accused of what they actually do, not what their detractors would like to sling at them. Plenty about Morinth is condemnable without accusations of witchcraft, and if removing the made-up issues changes your stance, that's your weakness.

Morinth may be a serial sex killer, but she is not a rapist, nor does she take the unwilling. She isn't upfront and honest about the full consequences with her mates, but can you honestly tell me that Nel would have cared or refused at that point? Did your Shepard care, if you didn't make the Paragon/Renegade check?

The worst part about Morinth isn't that she kills. It's that she seduces people to the point that they don't care about themselves, only her. They're value of self-preservation is already gone by the time she strikes.

Your OK with her herding them to certain death when she was clearly capable of saving their lives either by facing her mother herself or by ordering them to stand down since she had enough infuence over them to induce them to fight on her behalf?

If the villagers wanted to defend her, how is that herding them? How did she force them to keep fighting as she fled?  Or 'force' them to fight in the first place? 


The simplest, most likely, more appropriate answer is that she didn't force them to fight for her. They wanted to, acting like most people do when the ones they love are in danger. Parents, children, siblings, lovers, anyone can willingly throw themselves into certain death to buy time for a cherished one to escape.

Now, of her? Morinth flees. She always flees her mother. I'm hardly going to require her to submit to a suicide-by-justicar attempt now when she's been fleeing for hundreds of years.

Can I assume you also subscribe to the idea that Samara, faced with a villiage of people who doubtlessly were willing to KILL her, should have used minimum force to defend her own life?

If she didn't need to kill them, yes. I do not subscribe to a view that vigilantes, even when hunting down legitimate targets, should kill any more than they have to. The same sort of standard I apply to actual policemen. Samara certainly has the power and ability: perhaps not the first many, when the fight was most dangerous, but as the last were falling, and no longer a serious threat?

It does, however, beg the question. Given that Morinth was already fleeing, why should Samara have stayed to fight at all, instead of withdrawing?

Besides, of course, appeals to her code.

#131
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The point isn't that Morinth is justified at all in what she does, it's that she is no worse than Samara is.

#132
Dean_the_Young

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If, in the end, you care about lives lost as the measure of the good/bad of keeping someone in the galaxy versus what they can do for you, Morinth is negligible and Mordin is the worst party member you can have bar none.



Grunt would be least harmful to the galaxy, at least in past history, since he was only just born.

#133
Xilizhra

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I like them both. I wish I could have reconciled them.

#134
Dean_the_Young

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Well, I might have enjoyed a option to try to reconcile them, but it should be a definitely paragon option that wouldn't work out. But I don't really see a way you could reconcile them at this point: Samara would just wait until her oath was expired and resume the hunt, and Morinth would never trust her in the first place even if Samara did give up.

#135
Xilizhra

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Futile, certainly, but quite unfortunate. But in my canon playthrough, I killed Morinth because... well, honestly, because I thought Liara would never forgive me if I killed Samara. That was what swung the decision, at least. I wanted Morinth to give some sign of being repentant, or at least open to it, but there just wasn't enough before the moment of truth came crashing down.

#136
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Shandepared wrote...

The point isn't that Morinth is justified at all in what she does, it's that she is no worse than Samara is.


The two characters were intentionally written this way to create a neutral platform from which the player will choose, from a roleplaying perspective, one or the other depending upon his his/her Shepard's "alignment".

We've learned nothing new.

Modifié par yorkj86, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:39 .


#137
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Futile, certainly, but quite unfortunate. But in my canon playthrough, I killed Morinth because... well, honestly, because I thought Liara would never forgive me if I killed Samara. That was what swung the decision, at least. I wanted Morinth to give some sign of being repentant, or at least open to it, but there just wasn't enough before the moment of truth came crashing down.

Why would Liara know about the betrayal?

Or care?

Liara's life would be just as much at risk if Samara came across her, and it would hardly be the first Asari Shepard killed.

Not trying to condemn you or anything, I just don't see the concern.

#138
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Futile, certainly, but quite unfortunate. But in my canon playthrough, I killed Morinth because... well, honestly, because I thought Liara would never forgive me if I killed Samara. That was what swung the decision, at least. I wanted Morinth to give some sign of being repentant, or at least open to it, but there just wasn't enough before the moment of truth came crashing down.

Why would Liara know about the betrayal?

Or care?

Liara's life would be just as much at risk if Samara came across her, and it would hardly be the first Asari Shepard killed.

Not trying to condemn you or anything, I just don't see the concern.

Well, she likely wouldn't know; my IC reasoning there was heavily emotional. But she would almost certainly care; I don't think she's changed so much that she no longer respects the law, and the asari kind of revere justicars, and revile/are terrified of Ardat-Yakshi. Maybe if I learn in ME3 that Morinth can somehow be redeemed, I'll start a different playthrough and see what happens, but I doubt it.

#139
Killjoy Cutter

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Shandepared wrote...

The point isn't that Morinth is justified at all in what she does, it's that she is no worse than Samara is.


We'll have to disagree.

#140
Casuist

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.


For killing an unarmed civilian. She then lost track of him, choosing instead to save an innocent life. Is that a decision Morinth would make?

 

#141
Killjoy Cutter

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Casuist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.


For killing an unarmed civilian. She then lost track of him, choosing instead to save an innocent life. Is that a decision Morinth would make?


Morinth would death-by-smoochies Nihlus and the bystander.

#142
Xeranx

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Casuist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we know for a fact she's certainly tried to kill non-Asari before: Nihlus.


For killing an unarmed civilian. She then lost track of him, choosing instead to save an innocent life. Is that a decision Morinth would make?


Whom she thought (maybe?) was an unarmed civilian.  We already met Nihlus.  We don't know him through and through, but we know for a fact that he's not like Saren who will kill wholesale to take care of a singular issue...much like Samara would.  I never got the idea that Nihlus would kill "just because".  

Also asking the rhetorical question doesn't help that fact that arguments made aren't for Morinth, but against Samara.

#143
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Xeranx wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the serial killer is the good guy, and the cop is the bad guy?  Or the serial killer is the bad guy, but the cop is just as bad, if not worse?  Cops leave children without parents every day, all over the world, in reality.


The part in bold.

And that's acceptable?  Especially given the circumstances that occur in this story?

Cops kill criminals while doing their duty, and sometimes innocent people.  It's a fact of life.  It's a tradeoff.  We are not perfect beings in reality, and neither are the Asari, or the Justicar Order. 

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The Justicar Order was created by Asari society.  You condemn Samara, you condemn Asari society. The Justicar is the cop, judge, and executioner rolled up into one.  That's how they operate.  Similar to the "knight" in the "Dark Age".  It is what it is.

Xeranx wrote...
If I remember correctly, Asari society doesn't subscribe to that rule of law anymore.  They revere the Justicar and their oath and give them a wide berth, but wholly don't conduct themselves in those ways.  I believe Anaya said as much.  I may be wrong.

Asari society created the Justicar Order.  The "Code" was created by Asari society.  It has not been dissolved.  It is just as subscribed to in Asari society, as a trial judge, policemen, or executioner is, in any society.  Regardless of how antiquated it may seem, or be.  It exists, and is upheld and supported by Asari Society. 

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:38 .


#144
Xeranx

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the serial killer is the good guy, and the cop is the bad guy?  Or the serial killer is the bad guy, but the cop is just as bad, if not worse?  Cops leave children without parents every day, all over the world, in reality.


The part in bold.

And that's acceptable?  Especially given the circumstances that occur in this story?

Cops kill criminals while doing their duty, and sometimes innocent people.  It's a fact of life.  It's a tradeoff.  We are not perfect beings in reality, and neither are the Asari, or the Justicar Order. 

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The Justicar Order was created by Asari society.  You condemn Samara, you condemn Asari society. The Justicar is the cop, judge, and executioner rolled up into one.  That's how they operate.  Similar to the "knight" in the "Dark Age".  It is what it is.

Xeranx wrote...
If I remember correctly, Asari society doesn't subscribe to that rule of law anymore.  They revere the Justicar and their oath and give them a wide berth, but wholly don't conduct themselves in those ways.  I believe Anaya said as much.  I may be wrong.

Asari society created the Justicar Order.  The "Code" was created by Asari society.  It has not been dissolved.  It is just as subscribed to in Asari society, as a trial judge, policemen, or executioner is, in any society.  Regardless of how antiquated it may seem, or be.  It exists, and is upheld and supported by Asari Society. 


I know Asari society created the order.  I said I thought they adopted a new form, but still gave reverence to those who became Justicars.  Anaya expressed that she didn't want to die for doing her job yet she respected Samara.  So Anaya revered the code, but still felt it would be wrong for her to die when she's given orders to do her job.

#145
Xeranx

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Double post.  Sorry.

Modifié par Xeranx, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .


#146
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Xeranx wrote...
I know Asari society created the order.  I said I thought they adopted a new form, but still gave reverence to those who became Justicars.  Anaya expressed that she didn't want to die for doing her job yet she respected Samara.  So Anaya revered the code, but still felt it would be wrong for her to die when she's given orders to do her job.

That whole scenario involving Anaya and the Eclipse sisters, really didn't make much sense to me.  I would think that an institution like the Justicar Order, would integrate seamlessly with local law enforcement, and that there would be proper procedures for handling these particular situations.  I find it hard to believe that Asari Society has not implemented these mechanisms.

I don't know if that was bad writing, or if Bioware wanted to give us the impression that the Justicar Order has outlived it's time, and no longer has a place in Asari Society.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 16 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .


#147
Xeranx

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xeranx wrote...
I know Asari society created the order.  I said I thought they adopted a new form, but still gave reverence to those who became Justicars.  Anaya expressed that she didn't want to die for doing her job yet she respected Samara.  So Anaya revered the code, but still felt it would be wrong for her to die when she's given orders to do her job.

That whole scenario involving Anaya and the Eclipse sisters, really didn't make much sense to me.  I would think that an institution like the Justicar Order, would integrate seamlessly with local law enforcement, and that there would be proper procedures for handling these particular situations.  I find it hard to believe that Asari Society has not implemented these mechanisms.

I don't know if that was bad writing, or if Bioware wanted to give us the impression that the Justicar Order has outlived it's time, and no longer has a place in Asari Society.


Which is what I thought the case was.  Kind of like how the Ardat Yakshi were once revered as goddesses.

#148
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Xeranx wrote...
Which is what I thought the case was.  Kind of like how the Ardat Yakshi were once revered as goddesses.

I like the Samara character.  I feel there is  a lot of depth there.  The Justicar Order however, is hard to rationalize without there being some holes in one's argument.  I'm not going to split hairs, and try and defend the entire concept, and how antiquated and unjust certain aspects of it may seem.  The story itself, tends to imply that it no longer is compatible with mordern Asari Society.  I see it for what it is, and except that.  As a friend of mine on the forum here said about it:  "It's a moral quandary". 

I think from a role playing perspective, it's easier to go with Samara instead of Morinth.  If you're not meta-gaming, then you're really rolling the dice choosing Morinth over Samara, and taking a chance that you don't have to take, I think.  Although they both have killed, there motivations, reasons, and circumstances, are obviously not the same.  I picked Morinth with one of my Renegade Shepards, and I never was able to really justify doing it.  From a meta-gaming(combat) perspective, Reave is better than Dominate.  From a non meta-gaming perspective, bringing a serial killer aboard the Normandy, just doesn't feel right to me.:D

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 16 septembre 2010 - 08:36 .


#149
Casuist

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

I don't know if that was bad writing, or if Bioware wanted to give us the impression that the Justicar Order has outlived it's time, and no longer has a place in Asari Society.


It's bioware stating upfront that Justicars are rare, and rarer still on Illium, which is the absolute fringe of what could be considered Asari space. Justicars still have a place in Asari society, but not necessarily on that particular planet...