Aller au contenu

Photo

Are the Devs in any way effected by any of the threads here?


179 réponses à ce sujet

#126
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
IMHO, the best you can hope for with any suggestions, is that they might influence a future BIO game - since for the most part, things have already been decided.


That's often true. For smaller things, suggestions can still affect the current game-- but I notice the majority of fan suggestions are Big Things, stuff that's generally fundamental to a game's design and would tend to get decided on fairly early.

That doesn't mean you can't influence the designers, but it does mean that any influence is going to be felt down the line.

The same holds true, incidentally, for influence from other games that get released or even influence from one BioWare title to others from the company. People sometimes wonder why the next title out from a company doesn't take its cues from the one immediately preceding it... and the answer is that very likely the second title was in production at the same time as the first one, by an entirely different group of people. There is some trickle-down and sharing of thoughts/personnel, but the true influence of any title comes after everyone gets a chance to see how it's implemented and what the public reaction is to it.

Considering the length of the development process, there's always a delay. The idea that we would suddenly halt that process mid-stream and change everything just because someone had a brainstorm is a bit ridiculous-- that wouldn't happen unless the person who did it was very senior. That's their perogative, after all, but even then you could only do that so many times without completely disrupting the process. Indeed, my understanding is that this is how many modding groups fall apart, or any group where everyone wants to be a thinker but nobody wants to be a doer.

#127
Dynamomark

Dynamomark
  • Members
  • 1 009 messages

Estelindis wrote...

Are the devs in any way effected by the threads?

...I sincerely doubt it, since effect as a verb, spelled with an initial e, means "to cause."  So, no, none of the devs come into being as a result of forum threads.  (Though it would be kinda funny if they actually owed their existence to...  No, wait!)

Effect (noun) = the result of an action on an object
Affect (noun) = feeling, emotion
Effect (verb) = to cause, to bring about
Affect (verb) = to have an effect on something; to pretend or take on a false appearance

I am not posting this to be mean, by the way, just to inform, in case anyone would like to learn about the distinctions above.  I like words, and I hope I'm not the only one.  :)

I know, those two are arguably the most frequently confused words in English language. More so than "then" and "than" I think.

#128
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages

DragonRacer13 wrote...
Um, at the risk of sounding like an idiot... how does one go about sending telemetry data? Is that a beta testing thing? A PC player thing?


I think it's automatic unless you opt out, but to be honest I don't know. My initial reaction when we started getting telemetry data was, "There's telemetry data? Really?" Maybe someone like Seb could answer that question better for you. I consider it black magic.

#129
Meltemph

Meltemph
  • Members
  • 3 892 messages
Only 5% dwarf? Bah, to be expected... I think they have been the least popular in every single setting.



Could you, by chance tell us how much the others were played as well? More out of curiosity as to how bad Dwarfs did comparatively to everything not Human. Human is always going to be the most played it seems though, I don't get it personally, there is always less intrigue in your own race from a fantasy perspective, to me.

#130
DaringMoosejaw

DaringMoosejaw
  • Members
  • 1 340 messages

Meltemph wrote...

Only 5% dwarf? Bah, to be expected... I think they have been the least popular in every single setting.

Could you, by chance tell us how much the others were played as well? More out of curiosity as to how bad Dwarfs did comparatively to everything not Human. Human is always going to be the most played it seems though, I don't get it personally, there is always less intrigue in your own race from a fantasy perspective, to me.


Look at how dwarves and short people are usually portrayed in movies. Greedy, obnoxious comedy relief. They're usually walking punchlines, so no wonder why many wouldn't pick one as their primary PC.

#131
Brockololly

Brockololly
  • Members
  • 9 032 messages

David Gaider wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...
Um, at the risk of sounding like an idiot... how does one go about sending telemetry data? Is that a beta testing thing? A PC player thing?


I think it's automatic unless you opt out, but to be honest I don't know. My initial reaction when we started getting telemetry data was, "There's telemetry data? Really?" Maybe someone like Seb could answer that question better for you. I consider it black magic.


At least on the PC for both DAO and ME2, there is a little checkbox in the online options menu to check if you want to upload data. Are DAO and ME2 the first BioWare games that have used this sort of telemetry?

#132
DragonRacer13

DragonRacer13
  • Members
  • 519 messages

David Gaider wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...
Um, at the risk of sounding like an idiot... how does one go about sending telemetry data? Is that a beta testing thing? A PC player thing?


I think it's automatic unless you opt out, but to be honest I don't know. My initial reaction when we started getting telemetry data was, "There's telemetry data? Really?" Maybe someone like Seb could answer that question better for you. I consider it black magic.


*sigh*

Now I've got to go consorting with Desire Demons just to send you telemetry data? That's hardly conscionable of you guys.

*pause*
Oh, wait, you said black magic, not blood magic. Posted Image

#133
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages

sandslayer76 wrote...
So, basically, my question is this: How long does the average major (or minor) idea take to get implemented from the moment it is thought up to the moment it is first stuck into the game? I'll be satisfied with just a timeline that you feel fits, even if it's just "3 months" or something like that.


It's a big question. The easy answer is "it depends".

What does it depend on? How much the idea in question affects the overall game. Big stuff, the things that are fundamental to the design and which affect many other things, either are top-down directives (meaning they come from the senior leadership or higher-- many of those are just directional, but if they come from someone like the Lead Designer they can be specific design decisions as well) or they get run up the chain of command from below.

If it's a big thing that can have a direct impact on sales, it often takes a while for a change to be implemented. Or, if it's a change that's occurring mid-stream (such as when we decide something's just not working like we think it should mid-development) it can happen very quickly. Someone pulls the trigger (meaning someone with the power to make that call) and we rush to change it. You can only do that so much, however, as the entire process requires a certain amount of momentum. We're talking about a huge undertaking.

For smaller things, it really depends on what's part of your personal bailiwick. There are things I, as Lead Writer, have a certain amount of discretion over, for instance, even if ultimately everything I do is subject to the Lead Designer's approval. Part of that, of course, is the realization that my decisions can have an impact on other peoples' work. If I decide today that X follower is going to have a new conversation in a certain plot, that means I need to bring onboard the Tech Designer who needs to implement it and I'll possibly be affecting the flow of that particular plot entirely-- is there room for this dialogue? Did I just stick a conversation in the middle of what's meant to be an action sequence? The more effects a change can have the more careful one has to be. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but it does mean you have to be careful. This is how bugs get introduced. One programmer or scripter's innocent change suddenly breaks three different things they weren't even involved in working on.

If it's something small and only affects the writing, and doesn't compromise the vision of the project or the budget I have to work with? Sure, a change can be made rather quickly. But as I just said in a post above, the ideas that people here on the forums tend to offer don't tend to be those sorts of things. They're more concepts or fundamental ideas, which are fine... but they're rarely simple, and thus they're the sort of things that get discussed in these parts at the very beginning of a project when we first start talking about how we want the Big Things to work.


As an aside, I noticed that you're usually regarded as the lead designer for the Dragon Age Universe. I know the lore took years to devise, but how long has the idea been bouncing around in your head? Are you the one that thought the premise up in its entirety? If so, what does it feel like the have created a genuine, popular product out of such a personal thing as an idea in your head?


Careful when you say things like "lead designer". I know you didn't use caps, but there's a big difference between my position and the Lead Designer-- who is the person that determines the design vision for a game. I had a big hand in putting together the Dragon Age world, yes, but that includes the fact I did so under a lot of direction from the DA Lead Designer (who at the time was James Ohlen). There's a lot of personal ideas of mine in there, as with anything I work on, but a given project is always going to be a collaborative effort. I cannot take personal credit even for the story (or blame, if you prefer) as that's going to involve other stakeholders such as gameplay, art and programming.

Fans like to think of game-writing as being similar to writing a novel... but it's more like writing a screenplay for a movie (although even that comparison breaks down when the idea of interactive gameplay becomes involved). There's a lot of hands involved.

But more directly related to your question, I guess there's a great deal of myself in the setting. Like any geek I have a certain amount of preference for a type of fantasy world... I like tropes that get turned on their head without being rendered unrecognizeable. I like fantasy that's grounded in reality without entirely losing the fantastical, and making fantasy characters relate to the issues we see in real life. Regardless of how much of me is in the DA setting (THE DA Setting-- damn the forumites for putting that in our heads.. we actually had a temp name for the setting that we rarely used because we knew someday we'd simply rename it. And when that day came it turned out the forum's temp name for the setting had become stuck in our brains. Serves us right. Posted Image) once you put something out there it takes on a life of its own. Same with characters we write. They stop being entirely ours, which is a very strange feeling.


And that's a much more extensive answer than I was planning on giving. I'm rambling, now. Time for coffee.

Modifié par David Gaider, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .


#134
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages

Brockololly wrote...
At least on the PC for both DAO and ME2, there is a little checkbox in the online options menu to check if you want to upload data. Are DAO and ME2 the first BioWare games that have used this sort of telemetry?

You know, it's very possible that you might have to opt in rather than opt out. Like I said, it's not my field.

We could be the first games that use it, I don't know. Nobody's ever come up to me before and said "here's some telemetry data" before, so maybe.

#135
eyesofastorm

eyesofastorm
  • Members
  • 474 messages

David Gaider wrote...

I'm rambling, now. Time for coffee.


Agreed.  Don't you have some work to do? 

*grumbles about the cushy job of a lead writer*

(kidding friendily of course)

#136
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages

Meltemph wrote...
Could you, by chance tell us how much the others were played as well? More out of curiosity as to how bad Dwarfs did comparatively to everything not Human. Human is always going to be the most played it seems though, I don't get it personally, there is always less intrigue in your own race from a fantasy perspective, to me.


My personal take on it is that there's a big gap between people who are frequent players of RPG's or already very familiar with the fantasy genre in general and those who aren't. These people associate a great deal of value with novelty, simply by virtue of their familiarity (or over-familiarity, if you will) with the subject matter. Everyone else, I suspect, is probably more interested in relatability or even ease of play. It'd be a mistake to look down on those people, as the fan was once there too a long time ago. Posted Image

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom. Maybe at some point we'll break it down more for you guys (if there's interest in such), but I'm not the person to provide that data.

#137
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages

David Gaider wrote...

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


This sort of makes me sad considering they were two amazing origin stories, I expected Dalish to be lower.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:39 .


#138
Estelindis

Estelindis
  • Members
  • 3 702 messages

Dynamomark wrote...
I know, those two are arguably the most frequently confused words in English language. More so than "then" and "than" I think.

Indeed!  They're possibly even more confused than "there," "their," and "they're."  (Maybe less so than its and it's, which I see all over the place; but that's really more of a punctuation mistake.)

In any case, I noticed that, in David's response to the topic, he didn't make the effect/affect mistake.  Hooray for lead writers who can, you know, write.  (Though, of course, it's easy for people to make typos on the web regardless.)  :)

Anyway, on the actual topic, I'm grateful to the devs who have responded for giving us some insight into the development timeline.  Sometimes we fans feel that, just because such-and-such feels like a brilliant idea and we're so passionate about it, it makes sense for the devs to implement it.  But that doesn't necessarily mean it's practical.

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
I
don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to
start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were
the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.

This sort of makes me sad considering they were two amazing origin stories, I expect Dalish to be lower.

This makes me sad as well, particularly considering how effort was put into creating cute female dwarves.  Honestly, most girls don't like to play ugly female characters, but DA:O puts us in no danger of that with the dwarven ladies.

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:41 .


#139
addiction21

addiction21
  • Members
  • 6 066 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


This sort of makes me sad considering they were two amazing origin stories, I expected Dalish to be lower.


Elves tend to be on the more popular then dwarfs. I just cant understand it.

#140
Meltemph

Meltemph
  • Members
  • 3 892 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


This sort of makes me sad considering they were two amazing origin stories, I expected Dalish to be lower.


Eh, sadly, I am not shocked, Dwarfs are always in last, Elves have a lot more popularity and clout with them.  Human mage makes 100% sense to me, due to its mystic feel.  For instance, I understand the D&D crowds obsession with Elminster and his ilk.  With them you can almost pretend you are them, due to them being human.  
Elves come with lots of preconceptions that make them intriguing, so even if the origins are not as "epic", so to speak, there is a lot more I would imagine, you can fill with your mind in terms of ideas about "your" elf.

Dwarves however, typically are always the least popular, and I would assume a lot of that has to do with normally being the least focused, there for Gaider and his band of merry writers have a uphill battle to make them "cool" again.  I think they are on a good start, but you have to keep in mind they are fighting against generations(quite literally, even Tolkien kinda ignored them) of backburners.  

Also, I dont know why but dwarves are always written as losing their glory, and to that, I say WHAT THE ****!  :P

When are we going to have a kickass empire of dwarves?  I mean really, do dwarves always have to be getting shat on in just about every setting?  And while I am just being an ass in a non-serious way, I think this also plays a part in their lack of popularity.

#141
upsettingshorts

upsettingshorts
  • Members
  • 13 950 messages
I just can't relate to aliens as protagonists and - more or less - dwarves and elves qualify as aliens. Same is true in MMOs even when other racial options would be better fits for my preferred class.  For example when I briefly played Star Trek Online, there is an option to create and customize your own species.  A fantastic creation feature and one of the things Cryptic did extremely well.  I used the custom species just to recreate a human that was 6'8" - two inches taller than the maximum for humans.  I was amused that I was taller, but only slightly, than every human player.  Even wrote in my bio that he was a middling basketball player before joining Starfleet.  But I'd never play a true alien.

I can't really explain it, either. I can play as any ethnicity of human just fine. Male or female, doesn't bug me. But being a dwarf or elf genuinely does. It's something I don't get about myself, let alone have the ability to explain to others.

And I liked both the dwarf (and city elf, not dalish) origins. I just couldn't stick with them once arriving at Ostagar.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:51 .


#142
Brockololly

Brockololly
  • Members
  • 9 032 messages

David Gaider wrote...
My personal take on it is that there's a big gap between people who are frequent players of RPG's or already very familiar with the fantasy genre in general and those who aren't. These people associate a great deal of value with novelty, simply by virtue of their familiarity (or over-familiarity, if you will) with the subject matter. Everyone else, I suspect, is probably more interested in relatability or even ease of play. It'd be a mistake to look down on those people, as the fan was once there too a long time ago. Posted Image


Yeah, its like how from the ME2 stats Casey Hudson released not too long ago, something like 80% of people used male Shep and more people played as soldier than any other class, while 50% of people didn't even finish the ME2.

I just worry when seeing those sort of numbers that the developers start making changes to their games to basically cater to the people that aren't even finishing the game or who buy it and then sell it back to Gamestop a week later. That simply because 50% of people didn't finish the game, thats a convenient excuse to take a 60-80 hour game and turn it into a 20-30 hour game.

Obviously game length doesn't always equate with game quality, but its just a damning trend in gaming where you've got single player campaigns like in Modern Warfare 2, Mafia 2, or Splinter Cell Conviction that stretch to reach 10 hours all the while holding the player's hand. I'm not saying DA2 will only be 10 hours, but with RPGs especially, part of being able to get into the game world has to do with length. Even if DAO had some filler, I liked that it had some of ups and downs and wasn't all big epic moments all the time. In shorter games it seems like they try to get rid of any slower moments to amp up the action.  If every moment is some big epic moment, they sort of lose their impact- its like if you crank the volume to 11 all the time, you'll go deaf- but keep the volume at 5 and occasionally pump it up to 11, that makes those moments more memorable, IMO.
/game length rant=]

David Gaider wrote...
I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom. Maybe at some point we'll break it down more for you guys (if there's interest in such), but I'm not the person to provide that data.

I think many would love to see that data- or other story related data too, like info on the romances or what factions most people recruited or how many people killed off companions or did the DR versus the Ultimate Sacrifice- would be very interesting(and no doubt create numerous arguments on the forums:wizard:)

#143
MerinTB

MerinTB
  • Members
  • 4 688 messages

addiction21 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


This sort of makes me sad considering they were two amazing origin stories, I expected Dalish to be lower.

Elves tend to be on the more popular then dwarfs. I just cant understand it.


It sort of has been mentioned before, but dwarves (outside of R.A. Salvatore's writing and some of Dragonlance by Weis and Hickman) are usually the butt of jokes and played for comic relief... or, at best, "they had a kingdom long ago but now squabble over gold and gems deep underground, cut off from the world."  Ok, maybe Warhammer is kind to dwarves as well (but Warhammer really doesn't do "comic relief" except maybe with goblins)....

My point is that elves are always treated as "Orlando Bloom" -all-the-girls-swoon- / "Legolas" -he-kills-everything-so-easily, and dwarves are "John Rhys-Davies on his knees" screaming "not the beard" or "toss me - but don't tell the elf!"

The majority of people buying the game are probably not fantasy geeks, or at best are exposed through other games and the LotR and Harry Potter movies.

There's a reason almost all sci-fi movies and tv series in space with aliens almost always have a human as the main protagonist.  It's the same reason Human Noble and Human Mage are picked most.  Familiarity.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

#144
LokiHades

LokiHades
  • Members
  • 193 messages

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Only 5% dwarf? Bah, to be expected... I think they have been the least popular in every single setting.

Could you, by chance tell us how much the others were played as well? More out of curiosity as to how bad Dwarfs did comparatively to everything not Human. Human is always going to be the most played it seems though, I don't get it personally, there is always less intrigue in your own race from a fantasy perspective, to me.


Look at how dwarves and short people are usually portrayed in movies. Greedy, obnoxious comedy relief. They're usually walking punchlines, so no wonder why many wouldn't pick one as their primary PC.


Which is a crying shame. I find that my favorite Origin remains to be the Dwarf Noble. It just has this great feeling at the start, and a horrible dread as you realise that y- well anyone who's played a Dwarf Noble will know.  ;)


Anyway, on topic.

I think it's important that developers hit that golden spot when it comes to listening to fans. Bioware in my opinion hits that spot very often (as displayed with the excellent ME2 DLC).

Developers should know the extent of which they allow fans to influence their games, while not letting it all destroy the core that they've created in the first place.

#145
Meltemph

Meltemph
  • Members
  • 3 892 messages
"I don't like it, but I understand it."



I am being coy, however... Says the human mage. =P

#146
Xewaka

Xewaka
  • Members
  • 3 739 messages

David Gaider wrote...

with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


That is a damn shame. Having played the six origins, those are by far the best ones in terms of story.

#147
Anarya

Anarya
  • Members
  • 5 552 messages

David Gaider wrote...
...once you put something out there it takes on a life of its own. Same with characters we write. They stop being entirely ours, which is a very strange feeling.


*cough* Sorry, Mary. About the Varric thing. :whistle:

#148
Anarya

Anarya
  • Members
  • 5 552 messages

Xewaka wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom.


That is a damn shame. Having played the six origins, those are by far the best ones in terms of story.


You know, I thought the two Dwarf origins and the City Elf were by far the best, but I've only completed the game as a human noble. Partly because I like how the HN origin ties into the rest of the story once you leave Ostagar, and partly because I'm really vain and I didn't like the look of the dwarf and especially elf models. Generally I pick non-human races in fantasy games.

#149
silentassassin264

silentassassin264
  • Members
  • 2 493 messages

David Gaider wrote...

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I'm not sure I'm at liberty to start rattling them off even if I did. Human Noble and Human Mage were the top Origins by far, with Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner at the very bottom. Maybe at some point we'll break it down more for you guys (if there's interest in such), but I'm not the person to provide that data.


You know, that does not surprise me at all.  It seemed like the game was built around the human noble origin.  I made the most human nobles because they just seemed to fit.  I am surprised that elf mage wasn't higher than human mage since they start with more magic, though.  And well, Dwarves just seemed tacked on to the plot; well that and I hate them.

Anarya wrote...

You know, I thought the two Dwarf origins and the City Elf were by far the best, but I've only completed the game as a human noble. Partly because I like how the HN origin ties into the rest of the story once you leave Ostagar


This was so true.  My favorite origin was the city elf by far but it just seems so insignificant once you leave Ostagar.  You really don't have a personal connection to the main story with the other origins.  This is why I am happy that they made Hawke a human with one defined origin.  This way you can feel invested in the story the whole time.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:46 .


#150
Xewaka

Xewaka
  • Members
  • 3 739 messages
The part of Orzammar feels completely different wether you're a dwarf or not. I remember people complaining that they had no real reason to support either King. Dwarven origins give you a very clear idea who to support.

As for the human noble link to the story... I'm sorry, his connection to the plot is as insignificant as the rest of the origins. Yes, I know the Howe part. I played it. I didn't feel any difference in the plot (other than random people going "Oh, you're the cousland child! Well anyway, back to my problem...")