79 réponses à ce sujet

[wonko33]

I would have loved to be able to save that Knight's life at the beginning, I wish there was a way to get in the midlle of the fight and convince Duncan to let the knight leave. Even at the detriment of having Duncan and Alistair pissed at me.

How about you guys? 

[Taleroth]

I planned for my original playthrough to be an avenging hero who seeks to put down anyone who abuses or murders others for petty or selfish reasons. I could describe him as The Punisher meets Admiral Adama ("It's not enough to survive, one must be worth of survival.")  When Duncan killed that knight, I wanted to see Duncan dead for it.

Modifié par Taleroth, 11 novembre 2009 - 06:12 .

[Jersey75639]

Nah, he was annoying for me.

[Lord_Saulot]

I wanted to side with the knight there.

[Voor]

I won't go into spoilers, but as the game progresses you come to realize why Duncan did what he did.

[Haasth]

Hah, I too wanted to side with the Knight. Duncan just showed his whole other side right there, regardless of feeling sorry. Though I wish I could have convinced the knight to drink the blood - he was dead either way so that would at least give him a chance, no?

[Reiella]

Voor wrote...

I won't go into spoilers, but as the game progresses you come to realize why Duncan did what he did.

Not really, you begin to realize that the Wardens are paranoid, perhaps rightly so given how far they delve into blood magic.  And hide the truth of what they demand of people.

[tkaz85]

Think about exactly what the Joining ritual involves. If Duncan had let Jory go, he would have undoubtedly gone back and spread tales of the "terrible rituals" Grey Wardens are forced to undergo. People would not understand that the Grey Wardens' power is derived from the taint they carry-they would simply see them as tainted. How many people would seek to join the Wardens if they knew that they would probably die in their attempt? How many people would use the fact that the Wardens are "tainted" to persecute them? Duncan was absolutely justified in killing Jory to keep the ritual a secret-the survival of the entire order depends on that secret being kept.

Modifié par tkaz85, 11 novembre 2009 - 06:26 .

[wonko33]

Being a Dwarf commoner I decided never to judge people by their social standings or cultural background, I play him with a sense of responsibility (protecting his sister and mother started that) but he also hates to be forced to do things and is tired of bullies. So yeah even if i would not have bashed in Duncan's head with my maul, I still wanted to oppose him more on this decision.

[Haasth]

Wait? Blood Magic? The plot thickens once again!

[Taleroth]

tkaz85 wrote...

Think about exactly what the Joining ritual involves. If Duncan had let Jory go, he would have undoubtedly gone back and spread tales of the "terrible rituals" Grey Wardens are forced to undergo. People would not understand that the Grey Wardens' power is derived from the taint they carry-they would simply see them as tainted. How many people would seek to join the Wardens if they knew that they would probably die in their attempt? How many people would use the fact that the Wardens are "tainted" to persecute them? Duncan was absolutely justified in killing Jory to keep the ritual a secret-the survival of the entire order depends on that secret being kept.

That's not a justification.  That's cowardice.  Murder is not justified by fear of potential consequence.  If the Wardens can only manage to recruit with deceipt and ignorance, then they do not deserve to recruit at all.

What's even worse about the entire thing is the secret they are keeping via murder is a secret that helps defeat Darkspawn.  If the Wardens didn't keep lids on it, legions could be erected against the Blight.

[Reiella]

Haasth wrote...

Wait? Blood Magic? The plot thickens once again!

The power of the Wardens comes from blood magic.  After Ostragar that should be evident, but by the end, it wrecks heavily of extensive blood magic, especially when you discover what the other ingredient was for the Joining.  Coupled with lying and decieving those who would join so that they would not know this truth.  Very unsettling.  The Wardens, as an organization, feel rather soundly and squarely in the realm of 'Renegade' path for Mass Effect terms.

Whatever it takes to get the job done.

[Vilegrim]

Reiella wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Wait? Blood Magic? The plot thickens once again!

The power of the Wardens comes from blood magic.  After Ostragar that should be evident, but by the end, it wrecks heavily of extensive blood magic, especially when you discover what the other ingredient was for the Joining.  Coupled with lying and decieving those who would join so that they would not know this truth.  Very unsettling.  The Wardens, as an organization, feel rather soundly and squarely in the realm of 'Renegade' path for Mass Effect terms.

Whatever it takes to get the job done.

soilders peak makes this abundantly clear as well.  Hmm Templars vs Grey wardens, place ya bets ppl! 

[RazorrX]

You are told before the ritual that there is NO turning back. That you are no longer willing volunteers but conscripted into the Grey Wardens. Duncan makes it really REALLY clear that there are 2 choices at that time - Ritual or Death.



Jory took the wrong pill.



The Knight was a freaking coward and should never have been there in the first place.



In the 4 origins I have done so far, every one of them I am on borrowed time at that point anyway.



It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)



If you survive, you are forever changed. They Grey Wardens are studying how to reverse its worse side effect as well (The Calling).

[JonnyGR04]

Absolutely agree!

[MightySword]

Taleroth wrote...

That's not a justification.  That's cowardice.  Murder is not justified by fear of potential consequence.  If the Wardens can only manage to recruit with deceipt and ignorance, then they do not deserve to recruit at all.

I think you missed the point, and the Warden is not out to play shinning heroes. And the consequence is to be feared, all that goody goody heroic righteous preaching ain't gonna do anyone good if they all die at the end. And when it involve the blight, no chance is taken, neither it should.

Your philosophy is more suit to an order with a motto of "We would rather die then taint our honor". The Warden does not have that philosophy, their directive is "To get the job done by any mean necessary". Seriously think about it, the Warden will recruit any individual, whether a sainty knight or a cold-heart murder, or an aprostae as long as that person poccess the skill for the job. This is just people try to justify what they do, the Warden themselves don't care about justification.

I'm not saying you wrong philosophy wise, you just miss the point.

[tkaz85]

Taleroth wrote...

[That's not a justification.  That's cowardice.  Murder is not justified by fear of potential consequence.  If the Wardens can only manage to recruit with deceipt and ignorance, then they do not deserve to recruit at all.

It isn't?  The Templars seem to think murdering blood mages to stop their knowledge from spreading is perfectly justified.  Do you disagree with that as well?

Taleroth wrote...

What's even worse about the entire thing is the secret they are keeping via murder is a secret that helps defeat Darkspawn.  If the Wardens didn't keep lids on it, legions could be erected against the Blight.

The Joining ritual KILLS most of the people that attempt it.  From what I've inferred from the game so far is that this number is at least 50%.  I don't exactly see legions of volunteers signing up with that knowledge...

[tkaz85]

MightySword wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

That's not a justification.  That's cowardice.  Murder is not justified by fear of potential consequence.  If the Wardens can only manage to recruit with deceipt and ignorance, then they do not deserve to recruit at all.

I think you missed the point, and the Warden is not out to play shinning heroes. And the consequence is to be feared, all that goody goody heroic righteous preaching ain't gonna do anyone good if they all die at the end. And when it involve the blight, no chance is taken, neither it should.

Your philosophy is more suit to an order with a motto of "We would rather die then taint our honor". The Warden does not have that philosophy, their directive is "To get the job done by any mean necessary". Seriously think about it, the Warden will recruit any individual, whether a sainty knight or a cold-heart murder, or an aprostae as long as that person poccess the skill for the job. This is just people try to justify what they do, the Warden themselves don't care about justification.

I'm not saying you wrong philosophy wise, you just miss the point.

This.

[JosieJ]

tkaz85 wrote...

Think about exactly what the Joining ritual involves. If Duncan had let Jory go, he would have undoubtedly gone back and spread tales of the "terrible rituals" Grey Wardens are forced to undergo. People would not understand that the Grey Wardens' power is derived from the taint they carry-they would simply see them as tainted. How many people would seek to join the Wardens if they knew that they would probably die in their attempt? How many people would use the fact that the Wardens are "tainted" to persecute them? Duncan was absolutely justified in killing Jory to keep the ritual a secret-the survival of the entire order depends on that secret being kept.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.  And a perfect RP moment for my PC to realize she has jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

Although, I do wonder why the Grey Wardens don't just do the Joining in private for each new recruit!  

Modifié par JosieJ, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:19 .

[Taleroth]

MightySword wrote...

I think you missed the point, and the Warden is not out to play shinning heroes. And the consequence is to be feared, all that goody goody heroic righteous preaching ain't gonna do anyone good if they all die at the end. And when it involve the blight, no chance is taken, neither it should.

I think you missed my point.  It's not about honor, it's not about righteousness.    They're murdering innocent people for unjustified reasons nobody so much as questions.  And the only justification anyone in this thread has put forth for it is a completely unverifiable theory that, if it had any historical precedent, the secret would already be out.  For all anyone knows, the Wardens' cause could be better served with openness than with murder.  And it probably would be, since it would allow for a much larger force of Blight prepared warriors.

their directive is "To get the job done by any mean necessary".

He didn't kill Jory to stop the Blight.  He didn't kill Jory to slow the Blight.  He didn't kill Jory to do so much as give a Genlock a bad cough.  He killed Jory because "nobody backs out."

Seriously think about it, the Warden will recruit any individual, whether a sainty knight or a cold-heart murder, or an aprostae as long as that person poccess the skill for the job.

Except they don't.  They recruit a minimum of members and kill potential allies.

This is just people try to justify what they do, the Warden themselves don't care about justification.

Then they shouldn't be murdering people, if they have no justification for it.  Killing Jory didn't do anything to hinder the Blight.

I'm not saying you wrong philosophy wise, you just miss the point.

It's not a philosophy.  They murdered a man to hide a secret they have no real reason to keep.

[Taleroth]

tkaz85 wrote...

It isn't?  The Templars seem to think murdering blood mages to stop their knowledge from spreading is perfectly justified.  Do you disagree with that as well?

Of course, unless you believe that Blood Mage players are a grave threat.  Obviously it can serve a great purpose and should be treated with respect of that potential.

The Joining ritual KILLS most of the people that attempt it.  From what I've inferred from the game so far is that this number is at least 50%.  I don't exactly see legions of volunteers signing up with that knowledge...

Tell that to the Dwarven Legion of the Dead. Amazingly, they still manage recruits and their name gives up their secret.

Modifié par Taleroth, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Hey, it's like the red pill- blue pill dilemma from the Matrix. How many people would have taken the red pill if they KNEW what sort of world they'd be waking up in? How many would trade their illusionary but relatively confortable lives for a world where they're hunted like animals yet still 'free'? Can you blame Morpheus for not telling Neo what he was going to end up in?

[MightySword]

Not really, and I don't think that the nature direction of the DA universe. If you think about it the Circle of Magi and the Templar is the same. Mages are taken away whether they like it or not. And they can't choose, either master their art or die, or something close to dieing (tranquil). And given what a few rogues mages can do (the tower and redcliff) it's obvious why such measure a neccessity. The reason I say you miss the point here is because sure, everyone can argue that what the Chanty and Templar do are wrong and inhuman, but the problem is that after that no-one can provide and "prove" of an alternative.

The DA's nature is not: "Let do our best, stay true to our path and as long as we try everything will turn out to be all right". That's an indealistic script you can find in a JRPG, but I doubt things work that way in DA. This universe is more interested in the answer of "what would happen if things don't turn out all right".

And it's not about the dying part either. It's pretty easy to convince someone to fight and die. In fact, even if an oder is out to open declaring that their fight is just, and their members are expected to give up their life for the cause, many people will still be happy to join. But the Warden's nature is beyond death, it's not about dying, it's about a death warrant. It's about living with constant nightmare, it's about turning into an abormination. It's not just about the Warden, but the world as well.


Let make up an example (fictional by the way, not really): if the church recruiting a force to fight evil, many will join even if it means certain death. But how many will join if they find out that they will have to be turn into demon in order to fight? And if anyone have second thought during the ritual, will you think the church risk the chance the truth leaking out? Joey has a romantic idea about the Warden, that's why he died.

Modifié par MightySword, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[Reiella]

RazorrX wrote...

It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)

If you survive, you are forever changed. They Grey Wardens are studying how to reverse its worse side effect as well (The Calling).

You drink the blood of an old god.  Because of that, you hear the thoughts of the old god.  Eventually, you become host to the old god.  How is this not blood magic?

[Wissenschaft]

Voor wrote...

I won't go into spoilers, but as the game progresses you come to realize why Duncan did what he did.

Grey Wardens do what is nessary and Suncan sure could not let knowlege of what the joining really is get out.