79 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft]

Reiella wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)

If you survive, you are forever changed. They Grey Wardens are studying how to reverse its worse side effect as well (The Calling).

You drink the blood of an old god.  Because of that, you hear the thoughts of the old god.  Eventually, you become host to the old god.  How is this not blood magic?

Blood magic involves sacrifing life force (through blood) to power spells and influcene people.

[Reiella]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Reiella wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)

If you survive, you are forever changed. They Grey Wardens are studying how to reverse its worse side effect as well (The Calling).

You drink the blood of an old god.  Because of that, you hear the thoughts of the old god.  Eventually, you become host to the old god.  How is this not blood magic?

Blood magic involves sacrifing life force (through blood) to power spells and influcene people.

The blood of an archdemon for instance.

[Wissenschaft]

drinking blood isn't blood magic. Blood magic involves sacrifice. Often human sacrifices which is why its vilified.

[Iceman82904]

Taleroth wrote...
That's not a justification.  That's cowardice.  Murder is not justified by fear of potential consequence.  If the Wardens can only manage to recruit with deceipt and ignorance, then they do not deserve to recruit at all.

What's even worse about the entire thing is the secret they are keeping via murder is a secret that helps defeat Darkspawn.  If the Wardens didn't keep lids on it, legions could be erected against the Blight.

Legions?  Because all the forces of Ferelden would choose to drink the blood which is, out of necessity, of limited quantity due to the second ingredient?  The blood that kills most of the people who drink it, and those are ones specifically chosen because they have a better chance?

And perhaps you forgot about the other aspects of the taint.  The nightmares would drive many crazy, and while the taint allows them to sense darkspawn, it also works in the reverse.  So having large forces would allow the darkspawn to know the location and strength of all these forces.  The idea of the Wardens is not an army or a legion, but a small force that can kill the Archdemon.  Trying to create legions of them would decimate the armies they need to fight the horde.

[wonko33]

My point was not , is it justified or not, but i wanted a way to confront Duncan about it.

I know I can't fight him or the story is going to get messed up, but being able to confront him would have been cool for my Dwarf character. I tried to pick the most oppositional choice in the dialogue but all Duncan said was, "he pulled his sword I had no choice". Maybe get a negative reaction from Alistar or something.

 Now i'm bringing up a Mage soon too, and she'll be all for it and will see the knight as a coward.

And everyone keeps calling him the knight....

His name was Jory.....
His name was Jory....
His name was Jory....
...

[Curry Noodles]

I'd have killed Jory too. In case you've forgotten, Taleroth, Jory's the moron who drew his sword. He was going to attack Duncan.



I agree that maybe they could get more recruits if they were more open about the process, but in the end they'd probably be hunted down by templars or the chantry if the truth got out about their abilities. And since the only person that can kill an archdemon is a grey warden, the entire world would be screwed because one knight didn't understand what he was getting into.

[Reiella]

Wissenschaft wrote...

drinking blood isn't blood magic. Blood magic involves sacrifice. Often human sacrifices which is why its vilified.

Are you suggesting that the Wardens don't sacrifice?

The Joining is simply using the blood of another for poewr and influence.  That some choose to call it 'taint' instead of 'blood' seems to be an arbitrary distinction.

[Taleroth]

Curry Noodles wrote...

I'd have killed Jory too. In case you've forgotten, Taleroth, Jory's the moron who drew his sword. He was going to attack Duncan. 

He drew the sword defensively as he backed away.  He wasn't going to attack anyone, he was trying to flee.

Iceman82904 wrote...

Legions?  Because all the forces of Ferelden would choose to drink the blood which is, out of necessity, of limited quantity due to the second ingredient?  The blood that kills most of the people who drink it, and those are ones specifically chosen because they have a better chance?

And perhaps you forgot about the other aspects of the taint.  The nightmares would drive many crazy, and while the taint allows them to sense darkspawn, it also works in the reverse.  So having large forces would allow the darkspawn to know the location and strength of all these forces.  The idea of the Wardens is not an army or a legion, but a small force that can kill the Archdemon.  Trying to create legions of them would decimate the armies they need to fight the horde.

Legions != everyone tries without discrimination.  Commanders, Generals, etc. can make that decision just as well as Duncan can.  Even more so with better lines of communication through their ranks and understanding of their people.  They'll have a larger pool even if they use the exact same selection criteria, because they're not basing selection upon one guy wandering around.

It may not become literal legions, but it's still a better and more significant force than just the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Taleroth, 11 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[robertthebard]

He drew his sword because he had made a choice to not go through with it, and he knew what the consequences were. That's probably the bravest thing he ever did independantly in his whole story life. The rest of the time, he was a simpering coward. I'm not sure how he got selected.



Funny thing is, like it or not, you're a Warden. Applying R/L morality to a video game doesn't make a lot of sense. In the history that goes with the game, Jory is probably not the first to effectively throw himself on his own sword to avoid the ritual. They do what is necessary to fight for the greater good. Of course, this has been said already, and only R/L morallity is keeping anyone here argueing that the Wardens are every bit as "evil" as the spawn they hunt.

It may not become literal legions, but it's still a better and more significant force than just the Grey Wardens.

Regarding this, not everybody that joins the Navy becomes a SEAL. The reason? Not everybody is cut out for the training. "Drown proofing" weeds a few out before they ever get started, and what remains is the cream of the crop. Some times, a small force is better than a battering ram at the gate.

[Blastaz]

Duncan shoots first!

[MPhone]

I have no problem with what Duncan did. I would have done the same thing. I guess buy into the Wardens 100%. I feel like a minority on this.

[Kyrellic]

Jory drew his blade, and tried backing out of something after having been told that there is no going back. Duncan was well justified in his actions, reprehensible as they may seem.

Incidentally, nobody survives becoming a Grey Warden. Some just take longer for the taint to kill. Like, say, 30 years.

Keeping the secret is the only way to fight the Blight. Why? Because no Grey Wardens means no way to end a Blight. If the people thought the Wardens were tainted and turned on them, then the Wardens would not be there to defeat the Archdemons, and the world would end. Period.

[Krenmu]

Everyone seems to get hung up on one thing...Since when are the Grey Wardens "Good" Or " Nice" Or even "Just" ...they are out to kill a dire evil..and they don't care how they do it..the end. The Ritual has two outcomes..death or becoming a Grey Warden..I see no problem killing someone because they are too cowardly to go through with it.

[nokillnobeepbeep]

Reiella wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

Reiella wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)

If you survive, you are forever changed. They Grey Wardens are studying how to reverse its worse side effect as well (The Calling).

You drink the blood of an old god.  Because of that, you hear the thoughts of the old god.  Eventually, you become host to the old god.  How is this not blood magic?

Blood magic involves sacrifing life force (through blood) to power spells and influcene people.

The blood of an archdemon for instance.

Nope.  You are not tapping into the lifeforce of the Archdemon.  If this were true, once an archdemon died the Grey Wardens of old would have lost their power.  They, however, did not lose their power.  Just because it involves blood doesn't automatically make it blood magic.

[JamesX]

Considering the Gray Wardens shy from nothing to destroy the blight - including the use of Blood Magic, killing a failed recruit to keep the secret of their initiation pales by comparison.

[Krenmu]

I honestly don't see Blood Magic as being inherently evil...Its just another means to an end..if it works to aid the cause..so be it.

[Hizuka]

The Grey Wardens, as said above, do what is necessary because to not do so is to condemn all living things to the Blight. When the end becomes survival of the races, the means stop mattering quite as much.

[superfeds26]

I dont think anything Jory did could be described has brave. He pulled his sword on Duncan to save his own ass, he would of been willing to kill a grey warden which would work AGAINST the grey wardens because he felt his life was more important,



they Grey Wardens are whatever they need to be to achieve their goal...their ends always justifies their means.



I think the initiation scene shows you both the compassion and the brutality/ruthlessness that make the dichotomy of the wardens. Duncan is truly sorry and saddened when Dev dies, and truly sorry that he had to kill Jory....but he didnt shy away from his duty.

[Kithayri]

Taleroth wrote...

tkaz85 wrote...

It isn't?  The Templars seem to think murdering blood mages to stop their knowledge from spreading is perfectly justified.  Do you disagree with that as well?

Of course, unless you believe that Blood Mage players are a grave threat.  Obviously it can serve a great purpose and should be treated with respect of that potential.

The Joining ritual KILLS most of the people that attempt it.  From what I've inferred from the game so far is that this number is at least 50%.  I don't exactly see legions of volunteers signing up with that knowledge...

Tell that to the Dwarven Legion of the Dead. Amazingly, they still manage recruits and their name gives up their secret.

Theres a big difference between Dwarven and Human (Elven) culture though that makes the Legion of the Dead much easier to find recruits for. Dwarves are fighting the darkspawn all the time, no let up and so they need a 'hardcore' legion (not to mention it says most Legion members are casteless/criminals/etc) and as anyone military-minded will be fighting darkspawn anyhow, its not so big a leap as it is for the surfacers.

For the topside civilization, darkspawn are mostly only seen in a Blight and the last one was 400 years ago. The Blight is just something that 'happened to other people' to most and so why would they be willing to take a 50%-chance-of-death ritual for a life-long nightmare and death in the dark 30yrs later just on the offchance a Blight happens in their lifetime. Also, as someone else mentioned, old god blood + drinking it  is certainly some form of Blood Magic (and as for sacrifice, the Wardens sacrifice their lives, and even their souls if they happen to poke an Archdemon) and the common-folk (at least in Fereldan) are scared to death of Blood Magic and wouldn't be caught dead having anything to do with it no matter the reason.

... and lets not get into the Templars probably hunting down Grey Wardens if their little secret ever came to light.

Modifié par Kithayri, 11 novembre 2009 - 11:08 .

[Riot Inducer]

Krenmu wrote...

I honestly don't see Blood Magic as being inherently evil...Its just another means to an end..if it works to aid the cause..so be it.

I'm with you there, for those of you who completed the mage origin and redcliffe, look at Jowan, he knows a fair bit of blood magic he's quite good at it actually but is he evil? Not in intent, not by the slightest, he just wanted to live his own life and avoid being damned to tranquility. Has he made some poor choices? Of course, but it's something else entirely to say that he's some hate mongering malevolent soul intent on sewing destruction and chaos.

It's a bit of the same thing with Grey Wardens and Jory, Duncan didn't want to kill Jory, but Duncan had made it very clear that there was no going back to your previous life once you joined the wardens. Jory forgot himself, it's quite obvious he had no intent on leaving his home forever, he ignored all warnings and saw the Wardens as just another troop of knights he would leave after the blight was defeated. I'm sure he seemed quite confident about everything when he was recruited however at Ostigar as he got deeper and deeper in it his insecurities began showing more and more, he didn't want to fight darkspawn, he wasn't ready to leave his family behind, he had made a giant mistake but there really was no going back. It's harsh yes but it was necessary, if you aren't ready to leave everything behind you shouldn't have accepted the offer to join in the first place.  

[Flamin Jesus]

Kithayri wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

tkaz85 wrote...

It isn't?  The Templars seem to think murdering blood mages to stop their knowledge from spreading is perfectly justified.  Do you disagree with that as well?

Of course, unless you believe that Blood Mage players are a grave threat.  Obviously it can serve a great purpose and should be treated with respect of that potential.

The Joining ritual KILLS most of the people that attempt it.  From what I've inferred from the game so far is that this number is at least 50%.  I don't exactly see legions of volunteers signing up with that knowledge...

Tell that to the Dwarven Legion of the Dead. Amazingly, they still manage recruits and their name gives up their secret.

Theres a big difference between Dwarven and Human (Elven) culture though that makes the Legion of the Dead much easier to find recruits for. Dwarves are fighting the darkspawn all the time, no let up and so they need a 'hardcore' legion (not to mention it says most Legion members are casteless/criminals/etc) and as anyone military-minded will be fighting darkspawn anyhow, its not so big a leap as it is for the surfacers.

For the topside civilization, darkspawn are mostly only seen in a Blight and the last one was 400 years ago. The Blight is just something that 'happened to other people' to most and so why would they be willing to take a 50%-chance-of-death ritual for a life-long nightmare and death in the dark 30yrs later just on the offchance a Blight happens in their lifetime. Also, as someone else mentioned, old god blood + drinking it  is certainly some form of Blood Magic (and as for sacrifice, the Wardens sacrifice their lives, and even their souls if they happen to poke an Archdemon) and the common-folk (at least in Fereldan) are scared to death of Blood Magic and wouldn't be caught dead having anything to do with it no matter the reason.

... and lets not get into the Templars probably hunting down Grey Wardens if their little secret ever came to light.

Not to mention that the entire noble caste of Orzammar does their darndest to make sure the poor stay poor, with the express intent of guaranteeing the Legion doesn't run out of new recruits (As evidenced by a number of documents which can be found there), and if you play through the entire questline of A Paragon of her Kind (Especially with Shale) you'll also see what happens if the army doesn't get enough volunteers.
So really, keeping a secret to ensure that the Wardens get recruits who at least know that joining the Wardens will eventually lead to their death, or telling everyone and ensuring that come the next blight, thousands of soldiers will be put through a forced mass-joining to have cannon-fodder against the arch-demon, it's the lesser of two evils.
Duncans actions were entirely justified, killing someone to ensure the survival of the order that sacrifices their lives so that no one else has to (Which, by the way, is indeed a widely known fact, even though the mortality rate of the joining and some other details are unknown to the general public) may not be strictly necessary (After all, he *might* have kept the secret, even though I doubt it), but the risk is too great.

[Maria Caliban]

RazorrX wrote...

It is not blood magic, it is a sudden, massive exposure to the taint. (Per The Calling)

Done through blood magic.

[Reiella]

Kyrellic wrote...

Jory drew his blade, and tried backing out of something after having been told that there is no going back. Duncan was well justified in his actions, reprehensible as they may seem.
Incidentally, nobody survives becoming a Grey Warden. Some just take longer for the taint to kill. Like, say, 30 years.
Keeping the secret is the only way to fight the Blight. Why? Because no Grey Wardens means no way to end a Blight. If the people thought the Wardens were tainted and turned on them, then the Wardens would not be there to defeat the Archdemons, and the world would end. Period.

Dumat's blight lasted 90 years without the wardens, 2 years after the Wardens were formed.
Zazikel's blight lasted 90 years with the wardens.
Toth's blight lasted only 15 years.
Andoral's blight lasts 8 years with the wardens.  [I kept missing Andoral's blight oh well ]

310 years later, Urthemial's Blight is resolved within this game, and quite possibly subsequent games, since I doubt any blight would last so short. 

During those 310 years though, we have the Wardens manipulating local politics, continuing to exist, drinking the blood of an archdemon and the darkspawn to continue to exist as an organization.  And we see members of the organization [Avernus specifically] who don't appear to have any problem exploiting their political standing for their  own projects.

Keeping the secret only assures that all other nations depend on the Wardens, and further not seek another solution, if the Wardens are even truly a solution.

[Reiella]

Flamin Jesus wrote...
Not to mention that the entire noble caste of Orzammar does their darndest to make sure the poor stay poor, with the express intent of guaranteeing the Legion doesn't run out of new recruits (As evidenced by a number of documents which can be found there), and if you play through the entire questline of A Paragon of her Kind (Especially with Shale) you'll also see what happens if the army doesn't get enough volunteers.
So really, keeping a secret to ensure that the Wardens get recruits who at least know that joining the Wardens will eventually lead to their death, or telling everyone and ensuring that come the next blight, thousands of soldiers will be put through a forced mass-joining to have cannon-fodder against the arch-demon, it's the lesser of two evils.
Duncans actions were entirely justified, killing someone to ensure the survival of the order that sacrifices their lives so that no one else has to (Which, by the way, is indeed a widely known fact, even though the mortality rate of the joining and some other details are unknown to the general public) may not be strictly necessary (After all, he *might* have kept the secret, even though I doubt it), but the risk is too great.

Erm, I think your example of the golems works against you.  The nature of golems was a secret.  It is not at all dissimilar to the Right of Conscription.

[Mummolus]

I think one thing people have broadly missed is that they're called the "Grey Wardens". Not the "White Wardens", not the "Light Wardens", but the "Grey Wardens". Grey, as in the color that comes between black and white. In most ways the Wardens stand between the darkness (darkspawn) and the light (civilization), using elements of both to keep things from going to hell.



They're an organization performing an essential service the only way they can, and to continue performing this service they are required to shed the trappings of normal civilization. They're not a morally good or evil group, but an ambiguous "the ends justify the means" type of organization. Their actions have to be considered in this light, and any judgement based on results, not methods. The Wardens stop the Blights, therefore the Wardens are justified.