91 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

Outside GW mages, wouldn´t they be apostates anyway?

[tickles44]

David Gaider wrote...

Templars do not take vows of chastity.

Chantry priests are considered "married" to the Maker-- though it's not an actual marriage, just a spiritual one-- and thus are indeed celibate.

For templars, the situation is not quite the same. Their duties require them to be dedicated to their duties-- they're going to live in a Circle of Magi (which does not have room for spouses and families) or a chantry, or otherwise be pre-occupied. Marriage is impractical, and the Chantry thus discourages such marriages as having dependants introduces complications that templars can do without (as well as a potential means of leverage).

That said, the Chantry does occasionally give permission for templars to marry, provided the spouse has their own means of support. This is often the case when the spouse owns land or a title. Even so, considering the spouse wouldn't be able to see the templar often, it's not going to happen frequently. Before anyone asks, the Chantry also discourages templars from marrying each other even more so-- that's considered fraternization within the ranks (the templars are run as a military order, remember, and possess the same discipline).

Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

Whew! Okay-- verbose answer of the day. Time for coffee.

Wow. I can't believe David Gaider posted on my thread the first time I've ever spoken on these forums. I feel like I should avert my eyes. Or make some sort of offering. Maybe pie.

[Riona45]

ErichHartmann wrote...


I should clarify that. Since Circle mages are supposed to be celibate...

They are?  I got the impression that no one cares if they have sex, it's just that any child they might have gets taken away.

[Bryy_Miller]

Xewaka wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Jedi arent allowed to marry, but Anikan does it anyway.

And look how well THAT turned. It managed to ruin the mystique and appeal of one of the best bad guys in cinema.

The marriage is not what ruined Darth Vader. What ruined Darth Vader is the fact that his entire motivation was reduced to nothing but "revenge". The prequels showed us that he was never truly Vader, just a guy in a mech-suit. It wasn't about mystique; it was about motivation.

[Leonia]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Jedi arent allowed to marry, but Anikan does it anyway.

And look how well THAT turned. It managed to ruin the mystique and appeal of one of the best bad guys in cinema.

The marriage is not what ruined Darth Vader. What ruined Darth Vader is the fact that his entire motivation was reduced to nothing but "revenge". The prequels showed us that he was never truly Vader, just a guy in a mech-suit. It wasn't about mystique; it was about motivation.

And now we see a little bit of wisdom in why the Jedi didn't want their own to have to choose between love and duty. That's why marriages weren't allowed. Love is chaotic enough, throw in the whole Force business and it gets super complicated, super fast.

Anakin couldn't seperate his feelings very well and yeah, ironically his love for Padme led him down a dark path. A teenager mistake that led to the downfall of the entire Jedi Order.

Totally off-topic, but yeah. Motivation was a key factor in that transition.

On-topic-ish: Aren't all you girls glad that Alistair is never forced to choose between the Warden and ending the Blight (well, if you did the Dark Ritual, anyway)?

Modifié par leonia42, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[Kerilus]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Jedi arent allowed to marry, but Anikan does it anyway.

And look how well THAT turned. It managed to ruin the mystique and appeal of one of the best bad guys in cinema.

The marriage is not what ruined Darth Vader. What ruined Darth Vader is the fact that his entire motivation was reduced to nothing but "revenge". The prequels showed us that he was never truly Vader, just a guy in a mech-suit. It wasn't about mystique; it was about motivation.

It's not the marriage that ruined Vader, but it's the love that did. He held Padme too dearly at heart that she's above everything to him, including what it means to be a Jedi. Thus, he was exposed to the trickery of Darth Sidious.

[upsettingshorts]

Marriages weren't allowed because George Lucas is messed up and the Jedi of the prequels turned out to be a creepy sexless cult who seem to get pretty emotional except for never getting laid. Then he fabricated a few lines about how a single, twentysomething politician couldn't have a relationship with an attractive, interested man because... "I'm a senator." 

The whole Force business didn't have to get super complicated if they just ****ed in the bathroom of the transport to Naboo like they both obviously wanted to, or at any of the other numerous cliched-romance set pieces. But since Lucas' concept of romance is frankly odd and disturbing - we got the cinematic abortion called Attack of the Clones.

While leonia42 you effectively describe what I think Lucas was trying to get across, it didn't come off that way because the guy can't write dialogue or women to save his life. Padme falling for Anakin, given what we actually see, is totally and completely inexplicable.

And Anakin goes crazy because they never once in twenty years go back and buy his mom's freedom from Watto. People talk about plot holes in Bioware games all the time, but good lord you could drive the Death Star through that one. So she ends up being murdered by sandpeople and he butchers all of them. Then goes on a psychopathic rant that somehow endears him to Padme even more. Jeez, just reading this outloud back to myself is... ugh.

/some ideas may have been ripped off from one of the more epic movie reviews of all time
//seriously though, never cite the prequels for any reason other than as examples of bad filmmaking and even worse writing
///you may now resume your topic

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Leonia]

Oh I won't argue about George Lucas' lack of.. um, tact. Even as a member of the 501st, many of us are not exactly big fans of GL himself. The man has some twisted ideas, for sure.

And plot holes.. oh boy, don't even open that can of worms. Just look at how they screw around with established canon in the Clone Wars cartoons. Mandalorian farmers?! REALLY?!

Oh gosh we are so off-topic now.

Modifié par leonia42, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'll try to link it back just to bring it back to the topic. The Jedi and Templars do seem to take some things from the monastic tradition, but I feel like the Templars are more effectively realized because their order has very specific goals and objectives. Because of that, we can explain why their internal rules make sense (like celibacy and no fraternization) whereas the Jedi's just seem like plot devices - in that I mean if we don't take the Jedi at their word as to why they forbid certain things, the reasons for preventing them start to unravel and cause problems. 

The Templar's task of policing and apprehending mages demands discipline. It's not like the mage problem will go away during a Templar's lifetime, or that apostage mages couldn't leverage a careless Templar's indiscretions against him - such as through his possessions, material or otherwise - to subvert the Chantry's authority.

That's why the Templars make sense, and the Jedi are a bloody mess.

/met some 501st at the SWG Fan Fest.  Cool folks.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[habitat 67]

tickles44 wrote...


Wow. I can't believe David Gaider posted on my thread the first time I've ever spoken on these forums. I feel like I should avert my eyes. Or make some sort of offering. Maybe pie.

Um Tickles,  it works better if you speak directly to him as he is not an object.

[Nerevar-as]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'll try to link it back just to bring it back to the topic. The Jedi and Templars do seem to take some things from the monastic tradition, but I feel like the Templars are more effectively realized because their order has very specific goals and objectives. Because of that, we can explain why their internal rules make sense (like celibacy and no fraternization) whereas the Jedi's just seem like plot devices - in that I mean if we don't take the Jedi at their word as to why they forbid certain things, the reasons for preventing them start to unravel and cause problems. 

The Templar's task of policing and apprehending mages demands discipline. It's not like the mage problem will go away during a Templar's lifetime, or that apostage mages couldn't leverage a careless Templar's indiscretions against him - such as through his possessions, material or otherwise - to subvert the Chantry's authority.

That's why the Templars make sense, and the Jedi are a bloody mess.

/met some 501st at the SWG Fan Fest.  Cool folks.

Both orders are just taking the easy way out to avoid handling the complications love brings. Jedi were clearly in the wrong, that´s the whole point in Eps I-III, if they hadn´t gone the no love route with Anakin (who was born far from them and had Chosen One written in his soul - that should have been a clue) he would have had a better emotional balance... Luke had it and succeeded. Going to a religious metaphor (sp?) is like when people believe more in religion (Jedi Code) than in God.

With the Chantry it brings the same problem. You don´t forbid love and it goes away. The Templar who fell to the desire demon was a consequence of the Chantry policy. And again , Templars start training young so either they are not volunteers or not old enough to know what they are getting into. That also creates weaknesses to exploit. If Flemeth ever goes against the Chantry she´ll have less problems that Palpatine to find Templars to corrupt.

PS: what´s the problem with farmer Mandalorians? And thanks to the Clone Wars Traviss went away.

[Leonia]

PS: what´s the problem with farmer Mandalorians? And thanks to the Clone Wars Traviss went away.

Whoa, excuse me? Have you read any of her books? She's brilliant! They retconned all of her stories in the Clone Wars, Lucas pretty much gave her the finger and told her her creations no longer mattered.

Aside from that piece of your post, I can agree with most of what you have written.

Modifié par leonia42, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[Nerevar-as]

leonia42 wrote...

PS: what´s the problem with farmer Mandalorians? And thanks to the Clone Wars Traviss went away.

Whoa, excuse me? Have you read any of her books? She's brilliant! They retconned all of her stories in the Clone Wars, Lucas pretty much gave her the finger and told her her creations no longer mattered.

Aside from that piece of your post, I can agree with most of what you have written.

The LotF ones. Writing NJO Jedi as jerks at best because the OJ chose the lesser evil in the CW (using clone army vs letting Confederation crush Republic), giving high moral ground to a culture of mercenaries who only care to get paid when picking sides, she herself ignoring continutiy when it suited her. Liked what she did with Fett to a point, he should have stayed in anti-villain territory, but she took him to anti-hero.

More on topic, the Chantry is a lot like Middle Ages church (they even have 2 popes), but how does it enforce political power? The Templars can´t be too big for an army, so I would say that if the Chantry pressed the issue too much against let´s say the Orlesian Empress, her forces would have the upper hand. Exalted Marches so far have been against non-humans, but would human rulers comit their armies against another? They could be next.

[Meyne]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Then he fabricated a few lines about how a single, twentysomething politician couldn't have a relationship with an attractive, interested man because... "I'm a senator." 

I always gathered that line had less to do with some magical reason why she can't have a relationship and more to why she couldn't have a relationship with him.  It isn't so much that she couldn't have relationships, just that being caught with a Jedi would have jeopardized the movement she was involved with in the Senate from the scandal (since he's not supposed to be doing that and she could be engaging in a conflict of interests, depending on how her opponents could contort things to see a Jedi connection to her movement) and more likely the scandal could end her career and put his own position in question (dunno how Jedi handle stuff like that).  So it was more a plead for him to not pursue things and risk her career with such a scandal if they got caught (since his actions imply he's willing to risk his own order's anger/punishment/whatever).

But anywho, I always figured Templars took vows of chastity when working with the Circle at least, to try and keep them from fraternizing with the mages.  Interesting it is less of a vow and more of a "really, don't do that."  I suppose the lack of vows can allow someone to enter the Order after they're married if for some reason you get people that feel compelled to join for an Exalted March or something, maybe get some noble families connected for greater funding from pious nobles while still allowing noble Templar heroes to go home and continue lineages.

Modifié par Meyne, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[tickles44]

habitat 67 wrote...

tickles44 wrote...


Wow. I can't believe David Gaider posted on my thread the first time I've ever spoken on these forums. I feel like I should avert my eyes. Or make some sort of offering. Maybe pie.

Um Tickles,  it works better if you speak directly to him as he is not an object.

Well I guess that ruins my weekend plans of erecting a golden statue in his honor, and here I had made the deposite and everything. Darn.

Another question though:if a Templar did enter a relationship with a mage and was caught would he be punished or simply sent to another Circle or Chantry?

[Numa-Fai]

My, my, talking about contradictory lines in DA, I must say there's another one worse than Templars and Chastity: Nathaniel's grandfather: Was he a Grey Warden hopeful called Padric Howe? Or was he Tarleton Howe? Were his parents cousins? Or what? I never understood that...

[Leonia]

The LotF ones. Writing NJO Jedi as jerks at best because the OJ chose the lesser evil in the CW (using clone army vs letting Confederation crush Republic), giving high moral ground to a culture of mercenaries who only care to get paid when picking sides, she herself ignoring continutiy when it suited her. Liked what she did with Fett to a point, he should have stayed in anti-villain territory, but she took him to anti-hero.

So.. you haven't read Republic Commando. And the Jedi of the prequels were totally different from the ones of the original triology and beyond, their rules were stupid (as Upsettingshorts has pointed out already in this thread) so Traviss made the Mandalorians show how a society could function within the bounds of proper rules and morals.

You won't get that from reading the later material (though you'll appreciate that they aren't just mercenaries looking for quick cash because you'll know how they came to be what they are), you need to go back to how those clones were trained and taught. She wrote everything that the Jedi were too scared to confront. If you don't like her work because it's not pro-Jedi, then you have missesd the point about what the Jedi were doing wrong before Vader took everything away from them.

And yes all this totally parallels the rules of the Chantry over the templars and potentially foreshadows what may happen in the future (and we know there will be some struggle in DA 2 against the Chantry). The only difference in Origins is that the Chantry controls its templars with lyrium as opposed to strict doctrines and "don't be naughty or you'll turn to the Dark Side".

Numa-Fai wrote...

My, my, talking about contradictory
lines in DA, I must say there's another one worse than Templars and
Chastity: Nathaniel's grandfather: Was he a Grey Warden hopeful called
Padric Howe? Or was he Tarleton Howe? Were his parents cousins? Or what?
I never understood that...

Pretty sure it was Padric Howe and Nathaniel reckons he didn't survive the Joining. 

Modifié par leonia42, 18 septembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Kail Ashton]

Ahh well that was enlightening, now if we could just get a solid anwser on who alistair's mother is i think that'll close the book on any possible plot holes

[Leonia]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Ahh well that was enlightening, now if we could just get a solid anwser on who alistair's mother is i think that'll close the book on any possible plot holes

Indeed, though with how this question keeps being evaded.. I imagine the way we find out the answer in the game (I'm guessing DA 3 since this will probably be more important to The Warden than to Hawke) will have some real significance. If it's Fiona (and I hope it is), there's a chance we can meet her (since she's probably still alive) and there's a chance we'll find the cure for the darkspawn taint.

Modifié par leonia42, 18 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Esbatty]

leonia42 wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

Ahh well that was enlightening, now if we could just get a solid anwser on who alistair's mother is i think that'll close the book on any possible plot holes

Indeed, though with how this question keeps being evaded.. I imagine the way we find out the answer in the game (I'm guessing DA 3 since this will probably be more important to The Warden than to Hawke) will have some real significance. If it's Fiona (and I hope it is), there's a chance we can meet her (since she's probably still alive) and there's a chance we'll find the cure for the darkspawn taint.

Maker, yes! Oh I really really hope we get something about Alistair and Fiona. I don't care if its just a historical codex entry from importing your DAO saves, but I want Alistair to find out about his epically awesome GW, Elven, Mage Mother! This i demand! I mean c'mon he's gotta end up in Weisshaupt sometime.

EDIT: Unless he's dead or drunk in someone's save.

Modifié par Esbatty, 18 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Esbatty wrote...

Maker, yes! Oh I really really hope we get something about Alistair and Fiona. I don't care if its just a historical codex entry from importing your DAO saves, but I want Alistair to find out about his epically awesome GW, Elven, Mage Mother! This i demand! I mean c'mon he's gotta end up in Weisshaupt sometime.

EDIT: Unless he's dead or drunk in someone's save.

If Alistair is indeed Fiona's son...how should we explain Goldanna?

[Daerog]

Esbatty wrote...

Maker, yes! Oh I really really hope we get something about Alistair and Fiona. I don't care if its just a historical codex entry from importing your DAO saves, but I want Alistair to find out about his epically awesome GW, Elven, Mage Mother! This i demand! I mean c'mon he's gotta end up in Weisshaupt sometime.

EDIT: Unless he's dead or drunk in someone's save.

Makes more sense for Maric to have had 2 children outside his marriage rather than just one, considering the times the children were born and Rowan being alive or dead. Unless it is just said that the timeline in the books were wrong, but then that would ruin Maric's motivations that would eventually lead him to have sex with Fiona.

The game is canon, completely, so Alistair had to be born while Rowan was still alive as is stated ingame, but the kid from the book is born after Rowan's death which led to Maric's depression and such, blahblahblah ramblerambleramble.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 18 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Deathispink]

leonia42 wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

Ahh well that was enlightening, now if we could just get a solid anwser on who alistair's mother is i think that'll close the book on any possible plot holes

Indeed, though with how this question keeps being evaded.. I imagine the way we find out the answer in the game (I'm guessing DA 3 since this will probably be more important to The Warden than to Hawke) will have some real significance. If it's Fiona (and I hope it is), there's a chance we can meet her (since she's probably still alive) and there's a chance we'll find the cure for the darkspawn taint.

I have a feeling we will not see our Wardens ever again, unless it is in a cameo of some sort. As for the loose ends DAO left behind I'm not going to hold my breath. Remember KotOR. Just remember it.

[Esbatty]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Maker, yes! Oh I really really hope we get something about Alistair and Fiona. I don't care if its just a historical codex entry from importing your DAO saves, but I want Alistair to find out about his epically awesome GW, Elven, Mage Mother! This i demand! I mean c'mon he's gotta end up in Weisshaupt sometime.

EDIT: Unless he's dead or drunk in someone's save.

If Alistair is indeed Fiona's son...how should we explain Goldanna?

I believe in a codex entry in the Darkspawn Chronicles Alistair finds out Goldanna is not his sister. Inspite of this being an alternate universe, the only big difference is that your warden dies in the joining, oh and the whole darkspawn winning and such.

[Esbatty]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Maker, yes! Oh I really really hope we get something about Alistair and Fiona. I don't care if its just a historical codex entry from importing your DAO saves, but I want Alistair to find out about his epically awesome GW, Elven, Mage Mother! This i demand! I mean c'mon he's gotta end up in Weisshaupt sometime.

EDIT: Unless he's dead or drunk in someone's save.

Makes more sense for Maric to have had 2 children outside his marriage rather than just one, considering the times the children were born and Rowan being alive or dead. Unless it is just said that the timeline in the books were wrong, but then that would ruin Maric's motivations that would eventually lead him to have sex with Fiona.

The game is canon, completely, so Alistair had to be born while Rowan was still alive as is stated ingame, but the kid from the book is born after Rowan's death which led to Maric's depression and such, blahblahblah ramblerambleramble.

Yes but this is a poor, little girl who could have made up the whole "the babies father is the king" in her head. Remember Goldanna confronts Alistair that the baby murdered her mother and ruined her life. Kids can make up all sorts of things, flights of fancy, and seeing as how the stories and histories of Fereldan and Orlais, and the old tales sung by the bards of great tragedies and romances could have influenced her.