291 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

?? Where the heck did that come from?

[Mallissin]

Someones been reading too much Ayn Rand.

[Nightwriter]

Well it sounded like "SCREW YOU MORALITY IS UNIVERSAL THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH AND I FOLLOW IT."

Or something.

[--Master of All--]

Don't worry... eventually every forum will get a built-in sarcasm detector.

[Nightwriter]

Her sex scenes weren't half bad though. She should've focused on that. Instead of, you know, spending an enormous book delivering the same message over and over. I get it, you don't like moochers. Mooching is bad! Pursuit of individual happiness is good!

[Rockworm503]

ExtremeOne wrote...

everyone says the poor quarians have done nothing wrong well i guess you all forgot who started the war

Reading comprehension is not your strong point.

[Commander Kurt]

Is there really need to be so aggressive? Let's just leave Hitler and slavers out of this, because we are dealing with gray areas. Bringing up PETA is in fact a good point, especially since we know so little about the reasoning capabilities of geth and chickens.



For me, the question here is wether we have the moral right to even make definitions regarding the rights of others? If someone/something wants to live, is it really right to kill them? If someone/something wants to be free, is it really right to confine them? No matter how different they are?



I defend my eating chicken with the belief that they do not have wants, only instincts and needs. The same can be argued for the geth, in their case we can't really tell. I feel that the geth have wants, and so I attribute them more rights. The game does seem to suggest that they have culture, reasoning, even emotions. And even if this is not actually possible for machine the real world, ME is not the real world.



But I do feel that this is a matter of opinion and interpretation. Please don't beat on people for seeing it in a different way.

[Nightwriter]

It is not that we have the moral right to impose our ethical definitions on others, it is that we have the moral need to. Imprisoning a serial killer would be wrong by your argument because the serial killer would want to be free, and if we have no right to deny him that freedom then he must be released.

So yes, to a certain extent I believe we must make definitions regarding the rights of others, but in this case, I think we violated our own definitions of morality, and violated the geth's rights.

[Anacronian Stryx]

DPSSOC wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok every time I hear/read this it makes me want to strangle somebody.  Whether or not the Quarians have "paid" for their mistake is irrellevant because they haven't learned from it.  It makes me think people completely misunderstand the principles behind imprisonment vs physical punishment in crime.

Weather or not they have learned from their mistakes is irrelevant, You can still like and sympathise with a people who has learned nothing from their mistakes and yes you can pity somebody who has payed such a huge price as the Quarians has in this case.

It is relevant if they've learned from their mistakes because it shows they've acknowledged it.  The Quarians haven't and sympathizing with them just enables them to continue playing the victim.  I'm not saying the Quarians were completely in the wrong, I can understand why they did what they did even if I disagree, but they were in the wrong.  By not acknowledging their mistake, not learning from it, they eliminate any sympathy I might feel for their plight and replace it with anger about how blind, stubborn, and stupid they're being.

For example say someone jams a fork into an electrical outlet, gets shocked, and then blames the outlet for shocking them, completely absolving themselves of blame for what happened.  Exactly how long are you going to feel sympathy for the twit?

I can still like the twit for other reasons that the fact that he jams a fork in a electrical outlet and yes i can still feel sympathy/empathy to the pain he must feel every time he does this stupid action.

[mopotter]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

Seriously, why would anyone feel sorry, or much less like quarians? They are genocidal maniacs who after nearly three centuries of pathetic existence, brought down by their own actions against the absolutely innocent geth, still brag about their rights to exterminate a sentient race and wage war that could destabilize the entire galaxy. The moment a race starts contemplating its own existence and asks if it has a soul means it is sentient and fully deserving of the right to live.

No, they aren't.  If a model of car becomes discontinued and scraped, do you call it genocide?  The Geth can not literally have genocide commited against them (or attempted too at least.)

I'm starting to fell more and more alone in this argument.  I can't believe how many people feel like the wrist watches they wear are more important than their own lives.

This is the type of arguments I find lacking.  My car?  My watch?     My car or watch has not asked me if they have a soul.  They have not ask me the reason I use them to drive to work or asked me why I need to know what time it is or asked me why I'm selling them.  Unless your watching Eureka.   The whole point is that the geth have self awareness and that's a part of what makes someone human.  Not their skin, bones, blood cells.  It's their thought, do they dream, do they have a vision of what their future will be like.

One thing I would like to find out someday, is if the entire Quarian population agreed with trying to destroy the geth.  It seems to me that there should have been fractions of Quarians who wanted to help the geth and Quarian who wanted to kill them.  I would find it really strange if 100% of the Quarian population wanted to destroy them.  To me that's not natural.  


I

[mopotter]

Moiaussi wrote...

I have a sneaking suspicion that the true irony is that if and when the Quarians ever reclaim their homeworld (by war or diplomacy), they will find they have been so many generations in suits that they will no longer be adapted to living there either, and end up living like the Geth, in orbital stations with noone living on their worlds.

I agree that they wouldn't be able to go back to their home world and just take up where they left off.  I think that's part of their problem.  I do think they would eventually be able to live without their suites, but that it would take just as long as if they found a new planet to settle.   But I also think that if they make some kind of peace with the geth, the Geth would help them 

[mopotter]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Flamesz wrote...

I'm not sure, perhaps it's because they didn't like that their slaves were actually becoming an intelligent species and wanted to destroy them.

Is a non-sentient machine a slave?  Calling the pre-"awakening" Geth "slaves" would be like calling your computer a slave.

Agree.  Tali referred to them as slaves because even she realizes that they are now sentient beings.  When they started out the Geth were just like the robots you can buy at sears, but bigger.  If they hadn't kept tinkering and making them smarter, able to make decisions on their own-so they could do the job better- they wouldn't have had the results they had.  

[mopotter]

jbblue05 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

The Geth are not people they are simulated programs just because they ask questions or research about sentient emotions that they can't feel doesn't make them sentient beings with emotions.

The Geth are by their nature machines they .use absolute logic they don't show compassion, fear, resentment, etc.
When the Geth retaliated against the Quarians they wiped out over 99% of their population they didn't have morals it was kill every Quarian you see they killed unarmed civilians, elderly, EVEN CHILDREN. Don't apply Geth logic to sentient beings.
If Geth believe TOTAL VICTORY is obtainable they will attack withour remorse.  
If you believe the Geth should be free then we should apply the same logic to all machinery because machines are just slaves to sentient beings.

Dig deep enough, and you might just be an organic machine.  Don't be so quick to dismiss the Geth simply because their anscestors were originally built instead of arising out of the muck.
 

I'm not a Cyborg  I am made of flesh the way nature intended.
The Geth are still machines and only exist because of the idiottic Quarians.
I know its easy to compare Geth to sentient beings because they were created by sentient beings.
It still doesn't change the fact that sentients have a wide range of emotions.
while the Geth only understand logc

Cyborg - A cyborg , also known as a cybernetic organism, is a being with both biological and artificial (e.g. electronic, mechanical or robotic) parts.  So someone with a pacemaker, or an artificial leg or arm is no longer human?  There are also cochlear implants, and they are doing things with artificial eyes. Who knows what will be available in the future.  

[coffeemugjeff]

mopotter wrote...


Agree.  Tali referred to them as slaves because even she realizes that they are now sentient beings.  When they started out the Geth were just like the robots you can buy at sears, but bigger.  If they hadn't kept tinkering and making them smarter, able to make decisions on their own-so they could do the job better- they wouldn't have had the results they had.  

I also think what yor saying is true, I think 300 years ago an overseeyer panic, gave a report (or she had contatcs) to Quarian officials (in the militairy/goverment/police) those officials panicked and did the first this that came to mind pull the plug before the general Quarian population figured the truth. If there had been a referendum or a public debate I wonder what the Quarians would have done. But by then it was too late the average Quarians where on the run for their lives.

Now the average Quarians feels like he`s the victim, to simplify imagine your great-Grampa killed a man and you are forced to live in absolute poverty, people don`t trust you because of it. I think you would feel like a victim as well.

I think now Tali and other most other Quarians understand the Geth became sentient thus slaves. But 300 years ago, the average Quarian did think, why is my farming equipment trying to kill me?

Modifié par coffeemugjeff, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Roamingmachine]

The geth are defective tools, nothing more.The most Quarians can be blamed for is for creating the talking toasters in the first place.Nothing wrong with scrapping tools that do not serve their function.

However, despite all the pretty words and hollow documents, no one has any other rights than those he can take and hold against those who would take them away from him.Or have someone else defend those rights for him.That's the reality if 'natural rights'.The geth took the right to exist for themselves and have been holding it against the quarians for centuries.They don't need to justify their existance anymore than the quarians need to justify their attempts to re-assert controll over the geth.

[mopotter]

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Being biological is not a precondition for sentience.

Prove it.

I see no proof the geth have emotions, I see no proof they are alive. The geth are computer programs. A computer program doesn't feel, it doesn't even think the way a person does. There is no internal voice, no introspection.

Citing Star Trek doesn't help you any because Star Trek is a fictional show written by people who often have an agenda.

The geth are dangerous rogue A.I.'s and the galaxy will be better off if they are either subdued under human/quarian control or eradicated completely.

This made me stop and almost spit my coffee out.  Star Trek is fictional and Mass Effect?  Is Fictional.  I do hope you were smiling as you wrote this.  If not, you need to get out more.
edit - word

Modifié par mopotter, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:44 .

[Peridian]

The reason I don't like Quarians is because they seem to fail to reach certain moral conclusions in the same manner I do. I find that if there's even a slight chance that the Geth are sentient, sapient or whatever "brand' you wish to apply to them, they deserve to live/exist. The Quarians started the whole mess they are currently in and, to be truthfull, if the majority of Quarians were like Koris, I wouldn't have such a problem with them. What Koris is doing is what I consider the correct and, more importantly, just thing to do. I believe all other options and opinions we are presented with are wrong, and it seems Koris is in the minorty with this opinion. As such, I dislike the Quarians as a whole. Mind you, I do pity what has become of the Quarians, and the poor conditions they are forced to live in.
Still, that does not justify commiting what I consider to be war crimes and genocide.

If you truly, from the bottom of your heart and soul (though I don't believe in "the soul" in any way other than a moral one) believe that animals don't feel pain and, as such, you can inflict as much "harm" on them as you want, then I find you a sick and despicable b*stard. But I can understand that you think like that (eventhough I can't comprehend how you can think like that).

Killing is wrong in whatever way form is. Whether it's bland murder of a random innocent, or it is done to a sentenced criminal with the death penalty. If you think I am wrong then we are never going to see eye to eye unless either one of us rethink our logic and conclude that our reasoning is wrong.

[mopotter]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

lore wise, they created an entire race of slaves, and then tried to kill them off once they became too intelligent. Then they try to defend their actions with ridicolous arguments such as "lulz if we didnt do it they would have killed us all"

forumwise: tali thread was the worst thing on the internet, filled with diehard obsessives and other sorts of disgust. Anything short of calling their favourite sex doll, Tali, Perfect = you are a troll.

Heh now that they're back, they even have their own moderator policing that thread 24/7 and any disparaging comments are automatically deleted

After page 40 I tend to stay away from all "favorite" discussions.  After awhile it becomes mostly pictures and a lot of repeated comments.  

I like discussions like this one, whether or not I have anything to add, they are almost always interesting.  

[mopotter]

Mr. Man wrote...

social.bioware.com/1575943/polls/10900/

It's my Quarian-Geth Poll, go take it. right now Quarians actually have MORE support, despite what is being said here.

But the thing is, most of us like the Quarians.  We just don't all agree with their policy relating to the Geth.  And not all of the Quarian's agree either.   It's one of the things I like about them.   It's like Nightwriter said - I can see us doing the same thing.