291 réponses à ce sujet

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The machines they created in turn have every right to defend themselves from being terminated.

If your CD player revoltes against you and claims that you violated its rights, that would indeed create some questions. If it was powerful enough to kill you easily, then that demands a certain kind of respect.

they're not organic life where as they're made naturally by the elements/chemicals (biochemicals) of the cosmos rather made by the very evolutionary organic life's conscience itself as to being organic life's synthetic product... i think my artwork doesn't have the rights to revolt against me, if it wasn't naturally born as of organic life... i think bio-engineering and cloning grants some of natural life, natural rights versus a mere creation of natural life's productivity being synthetic in nature demanding rights by force. the next thing you know, robots believe only it should exist in the universe and all natural life is a blight or disease... anything organic is deemed illegal (example of organic life: human/earth/evolution).

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Ileanos07]

Well in-game, they are not liked for AI-testing and slavery-past. They also created sentient AI race and tried to killed them off when they gain consiousnes. + clasicall anti-nomadix attitude of settled population. It is quite simillar to gypsies - they are/were generally not well liked because they are migrating and that is suspicous to most people.
Personally I dont like them because their attitude to Geth and past slavery. If I had a chance to help Geths against Quarians I would do it (mostly because weapon testing and all above).
Role-play... Most of my paragons feel sorry for Quarians but they are trying to make peace between Geth and Quarians. Then I have one paragon who really dont like Quarians - he helped them and all but he is also quite cold to Tali and he never plan to help them against Geth.

Uhm... Sorry for my english. I am not native speaker.

[KainrycKarr]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians did weapons test on the geth so hell yeah i'm siding with the geth.

well, the geth also do weapons test on humans? your point? o guess you'd side with this too and all... atleast quarians have core understanding on how the geth function, and could use that knowledge as to preventing further casualties.

Those are Heretic Geth, not the original Geth.

but there's a source for heretic geth, thus likely being from the original geth right? the heretic geth had to start somewhere. does it matter? a heretic geth is likely a original geth gone heretic right?

did you play the game? The Heretic Geth are Geth that had an error. Something to do with a virus, as I recall.

That means the original geth were NOT instigators.

[Daerog]

KainrycKarr wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians did weapons test on the geth so hell yeah i'm siding with the geth.

well, the geth also do weapons test on humans? your point? o guess you'd side with this too and all... atleast quarians have core understanding on how the geth function, and could use that knowledge as to preventing further casualties.

Those are Heretic Geth, not the original Geth.

but there's a source for heretic geth, thus likely being from the original geth right? the heretic geth had to start somewhere. does it matter? a heretic geth is likely a original geth gone heretic right?

did you play the game? The Heretic Geth are Geth that had an error. Something to do with a virus, as I recall.

That means the original geth were NOT instigators.

Some geth experimented on humans, some quarians experimented on geth. Some geth didn't approve, some quarians didn't approve. Some humans are a part of Cerberus.
The original argument of "quarians did experiments on geth, so I'm siding with the geth" is just as reasonable as "there were geth that experimented on humans, so I'm against the geth." Sure, those geth were heretics, but the quarians who experimented on geth had to in secret as it was not approved of by the quarian government. Not because of reasons for compassion, although there are quarians who wish to live in peace with the geth and view the geth as people. So, support the pink admiral of the Quib-Quib.

[AresXX7]

KainrycKarr wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians did weapons test on the geth so hell yeah i'm siding with the geth.

well, the geth also do weapons test on humans? your point? o guess you'd side with this too and all... atleast quarians have core understanding on how the geth function, and could use that knowledge as to preventing further casualties.

Those are Heretic Geth, not the original Geth.

but there's a source for heretic geth, thus likely being from the original geth right? the heretic geth had to start somewhere. does it matter? a heretic geth is likely a original geth gone heretic right?

did you play the game? The Heretic Geth are Geth that had an error. Something to do with a virus, as I recall.

That means the original geth were NOT instigators.

Actually it was a choice some made, to follow Sovereign. Shep did make a comment regarding a math error, but Legion said it was just a way of seeing things differently vs being an error. The virus was what both sides were planning to use against one another, to bring the opposing side over to follow their beliefs.

[CroGamer002]

I'm on the side of Geth and Quarians.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ExtremeOne wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians did weapons test on the geth so hell yeah i'm siding with the geth.

well, the geth also do weapons test on humans... your point? I guess you'd side with this too and all... atleast quarians have core understanding on how the geth function, and could use that knowledge as to preventing further casualties.

   




I am not saying the geth has not did anything wrong but the way Tali talks in ME 1 as if the geth did the wrong thing by defending them selfs. and then Tali all but begs for Shepard to cover up the fact her father did weapons test on the geth in ME 2. I am sorry but the Quarians have made it seem like they were the victims in this but in truth they started this whole war. so thats why i side with the geth. 

The Geth exterminated virtually the entire Quarian species and drove them into exile. They sure as hell have a reason to hate them. It's far worse than anything the Quarians ever did to the Geth. Plus the Qurians performed weapons tests on the Heretic Geth too,  the same Geth that attacked and naerly destroyed Eden Prime. Both of which are worse than "weapons tests."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

i don't hate the quarians but there is something about them in ME2 that makes me says: "losers"

[Mike2640]

Hazelrah, as much as I love your name and the book it came from, you're completely wrong on this one.

The Geth have shown themselves to be thinking, sentient beings. They philosophize (As is evident by them asking if they have a soul), they feel pain (They shout when you kill them), they mourn their dead and their bloody past (As seen when the mourning song goes off in the first game).

Just because they're not organic, does not mean they're not lifeforms. They need energy, they reproduce, and they seek to prolong their survival. They are aware of their existence and their place in the galaxy (Perhaps even more aware, given how quickly they are able to reach a consensus among the collective).

The Geth are sentient lifeforms. When the Quarians tried to wipe them out (And i'd like to point out they only tried to wipe them out because they were thinking for themselves), they were attempting to commit genocide. The Geth had every right to kick their asses off of the planet. The fact that they didn't wipe them out completely (And still haven't despite being able to quite easily) is them showing great mercy on their creators, mercy the Quarians would never have shown to them.

[Commander Kurt]

NOW I get the name (HazelrahFiver), also love it!



And I agree with Mike2640, the geth are selfaware, have culture and so on. My question is if being built by cells somehow gives you more rights than being built by metal, all else equal?



It's an interesting question, what "life" is really..?

[FouCapitan]

Put yourselves in the Quarian's shoes. You create a race of machines to serve and aid you, and suddenly find yourselves at war and driven off your homeworld in order to survive. It's like Terminator 2: Judgement Day, only in space. Now you have three options, stay in space forever, and likely go extinct. Go find another planet that will take hundreds of years to adapt and colonize, not including the many years it will take to find a suitable world. Or you kill the machines and take back your home.

I personally would go to war. Now if communications and understanding opened up with the machines, diplomacy and talks of peace could persist. But bear in mind that Legion is the first and only Geth to communicate with organics in 200 years. There has been no understanding, no communications, no olive branches given by the machines. They took their planet, and kill anyone who gets close.

Now I'm not entirely without empathy for the Geth, but in the years none of their actions have been deserving of sympathy for their situation.

Modifié par FouCapitan, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[V-rex]

Mike2640 wrote...

Hazelrah, as much as I love your name and the book it came from, you're completely wrong on this one.
The Geth have shown themselves to be thinking, sentient beings. They philosophize (As is evident by them asking if they have a soul), they feel pain (They shout when you kill them), they mourn their dead and their bloody past (As seen when the mourning song goes off in the first game).
Just because they're not organic, does not mean they're not lifeforms. They need energy, they reproduce, and they seek to prolong their survival. They are aware of their existence and their place in the galaxy (Perhaps even more aware, given how quickly they are able to reach a consensus among the collective).
The Geth are sentient lifeforms. When the Quarians tried to wipe them out (And i'd like to point out they only tried to wipe them out because they were thinking for themselves), they were attempting to commit genocide. The Geth had every right to kick their asses off of the planet. The fact that they didn't wipe them out completely (And still haven't despite being able to quite easily) is them showing great mercy on their creators, mercy the Quarians would never have shown to them.

Exactly what he said.
Machine or not, Geth are still sentient and therefore can still be considered 'people'. Using the explanation of 'oh they are just machines, kill 'em all' is really and honestly the mark of a true racist. Because you are using the basis of the very origin of their race as a justification to kill them off, negating any idea of them being people.

That is why I personally laugh when people declare Ashley as a racist and then praise Tali, because if you ask me, judging from those standards, Tali is more racist. At least Ashley wasn't planning various ways to kill Garrus when he entered the Normandy on the basis of him being a Turian, same couldn't be said for Tali.

Personally I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground in this situation but truth be told I can certainly sympathise with the Quarian situation but I cannot demonize the Geth. This is a race that has spent its entire existence as essentially a slave, suddenly for the first time ever it gains the ability of reason and complex thought and the response it gets to that is suddenly all Quarians attempting to kill the entire Geth race off.
The Geth now do what any sentient race would do in that situation and try to defend themselves, forcing back the destructive enemy and trying to establish a place for themselves.
Th Quarians could have tried to negotiate some kind of peace treaty or even just not greeted the newly evolved Geth with outright hostility and things would probably be very different. The Geth are not genocidal monsters by nature.

Plus in the two hundred and sixty year gap between the Quarian/Geth war and the rise of the Heretic Geth, the Quarian race never made any attempt to make peace. Instead, a lot of them seemed intent of continuing war. Getting their weapons ready to 'retake the homeworld'. In fact according to Legion every single time a Quarian fleet has returned to the Homeworld it wasn't in an effort to make peace, literally the only reason they showed up was if they thought they had the military upper hand.
Thus meaning that in two hundred years, nothing has been learned and neither side is willing to concede and make peace. The thing about this is, that there is no real 'right' answer.
But like the poster I'm quoting said, after forcing the Quarians from the Homeworld the Geth did not pursue them. They did not create a massive genocidal death fleet to scower the galaxy looking to erdadicate the remainder of the Quarian filth. Instead they opted to focus on rebuilding their society after the war but to remain on watch in case the race that attempted to wipe them out once returned once again.
That alone should be evidence that the Geth are not genocidal monsters and again the fact that two hundred years of no attempt at peace on the Quarian's side does tend to put them in a negative light.

I sympathise with the bad situation the Quarians find themselves in but I certainly can't condone their war mongering plans against the Geth or how they label the Geth as evil monsters and completely overlook the fact that they brought a lot of what happened onto themselves. That said I understand how hard life must be for a Quarian but truthfully they should really consider just trying to rebuild a new colony in a new settlement or do what the Drell did and find a more common and socially powerful race to live alongside and be sheltered by.

Then, years later after having a strong stable homeworld shared by another then maybe they can go and try to make peace. Apologise for the past and express hope for the future. That way, both sides of the same morally ambiguous coin can at least try to give peaceful living a chance.

[DPSSOC]

I did like the Quarians until I bothered to talk to Tali about the Geth in ME1. This changed my opinion because this is how it came across to me.



"So you struck first."

"Yes."

"Without provocation."

"That's right"

"And lost."

"Unfortunately"

"And they're the bad guys?"

[_purifico_]

Generally, I have nothing against quarians, They are just like any other race no better, no worse. But. They are the biggest bunch of bigots and hypocrites the galaxy has ever seen. Creating and then trying to whipe a sentient race just because they THINK they may be dangerous in the future? But then when the geth fight back they cry like little babies and claim that their creation has turned on them? That's just a straight out lie. Quarians are people who have no problem twisting the truth or closing their eyes to the truth to reach their goals. The bastards would have been trialed for attempted genocide if my Shepard had the power to bring them to justice.



And Tali, you are a nice girl and all that, but if I ever see you pointing your gun at Legion again, you're going to meet the trash compactor.

[ExtremeOne]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians did weapons test on the geth so hell yeah i'm siding with the geth.

well, the geth also do weapons test on humans... your point? I guess you'd side with this too and all... atleast quarians have core understanding on how the geth function, and could use that knowledge as to preventing further casualties.

   




I am not saying the geth has not did anything wrong but the way Tali talks in ME 1 as if the geth did the wrong thing by defending them selfs. and then Tali all but begs for Shepard to cover up the fact her father did weapons test on the geth in ME 2. I am sorry but the Quarians have made it seem like they were the victims in this but in truth they started this whole war. so thats why i side with the geth. 

The Geth exterminated virtually the entire Quarian species and drove them into exile. They sure as hell have a reason to hate them. It's far worse than anything the Quarians ever did to the Geth. Plus the Qurians performed weapons tests on the Heretic Geth too,  the same Geth that attacked and naerly destroyed Eden Prime. Both of which are worse than "weapons tests."

   


I never said the geth did not do anything wrong and what they did on Eden Prime was bad. but i do not see any signs that the Quarians want a end to any form of war with the geth.  i understand your point 

[lovgreno]

Quarians are not much better or worse than the rest of the galaxy, they just had a shipload of bad luck.



Despite what Shepard thinks about Geth and Quarians she/he can't afford more enemies and desperately needs more allies.

[HazelrahFiver]

I fear we are simply going to start going in circles, repeating ourselves, because we will soon get to the point of having to disagree politely.

Firstly, thank you for the name compliments ^^

Secondly, I suppose it comes down to what you consider a 'lifeform' and what you deem should have the same rights as those things that are born organically. I understand that myself and the others who agree with me may sound elitist about being organic (this is such a weird argument to have when the geth do not really even exist!!.. lol), but that is an unfair label. The Geth in my opinion are candles, they are pocket knives, they are curtains and they are toothpaste. They are nothing but a tool created in a factory. I dispose of my toothbrush when it starts to misbehave (bristles go haywire) and I will dispose of the Geth when they are dangerous.



Yes it was immature, nay premature, to try and eliminate the Geth when they had not done anything. Yes, it was a series of haughty mistakes to allow the Geth to have such intelligence and sentient existence as they do. Yes, it is somewhat 'fated' that the Quarians should end up the ones that are exiled because they created something that can destroy them. However, none of these things quantify the Geth being a candidate for the word 'justice'. They do not exist outside of Quarian tinkering. They do not for ONE MOMENT have a heart or a brain; they have wires and circuit boards, they CANNOT have emotions or thought. All they have is programming. There is no moral high ground for them to climb. It's a shame they cannot be exterminated the way a defective car can be recalled. (It's not fully a shame because it's a make-believe world and been an awesome story, sparking interesting debates)

[kregano]

My opinion on the Geth/Quarian issue is that the Council basically forced the whole issue and that's how they ended up where they are. The Council's rather absolutist laws and the inflexible people they have to enforce them (the turians) basically made it a Catch 22 for the quarians: they could either do nothing about the geth becoming sapient and get invaded by turians, who would turn them into vassals, or they could kill their creations and save themselves from the turians. The quarians lost and since the Council decided to **** them over some more, they project their anger on the geth because they can do nothing about the Council, while they have a slim chance of defeating the geth because they created them. The geth, on the other hand, are still a bit bitter over the war (as seen by Legion getting that achievement for killing quarians), but still want to be accepted by their parents (which is why they maintain the planets). However, both sides are at fault for allowing this conflict to continue, although the geth are more culpable because they could have just broadcasted a message through the Extranet saying they weren't hostile and that they wanted to talk with the quarians.

[Moiaussi]

Shadowomega23 wrote...

If my CD player started talking on its own I just pull the damn plug or shot it with my 12 guage, if my 12 guage started talking I would wonder who spiked my drink/food.

They tried that. It turned out that the CD players were not only able to shrug off the shotgun shells, but were able to shoot back.

Quarians weren't quite as resistant to CD's flung at high speed as Geth were at resisting shotgun shells. Who knew? Well the Quarians would have known, since they designed the Geth, but why should common sense affect a good knee-jerk reaction.

[V-rex]

Shandepared wrote...

I love quarians. They're much more appealing than the asari, a hell of a lot more interesting too.

Geth sympathizers are misguided souls. I would feel sorry for them, but they mostly just aggravate me.

As far as I'm concerned the geth are not living beings on the same level as a quarian or human or turian, ect...

The geth don't have emotions. No fear, no anger, no pain. This is in the important part. Rael's tests would only be immoral if his subjects could suffer, but geth cannot suffer. Geth are exist or they are deactivated. They never wonder or hurt or get excited.

Why do people keep on using this argument? The Geth blatantly have emotions. They developed a religion based around the Reapers (some anyway) out of a desire for understanding from what they percieved as a higher power. Believing in, or at least wanting to believe in a higher power is arguably the most emotional a thinking creature can be simply because it proves that it can think. That it can be curious about its own existance and want to understand its place in the universe.
Not just that, Legion questions the morals of reprogramming the Heretics at one point in his loyalty mission, the ability to ask questions like that is the sign, clearly, of a conscience. An ability to think and an ability to feel.
Speaking of, if Legion is any example, the Geth CAN emote.

Legion occassionally makes noise of panic during combat and if you side with Tali in the loyalty argument he gets very angry and threatening to Tali as she leaves saying that the Quarian people will have to answer for the atrocities commited against his people. If you ask me that's a sign of loyalty and concern for the well being of others, in other words the ability to think and emote.

Plus, how do you know Geth don't feel pain? Maybe they don't feel pain in the conventional sense but they do still scream if you shoot them, if Legion dies during the swarm section of the Suicide mission he screams:
"CRITICAL ERROR!"
In a pained and frankly terrified voice. So it is entirely possible that Geth do feel pain, if they have the capacity to want to preserve their own existence then arguably the threat of violence would make them scared and in turn might be their version of feeling pain.
You can't just use the fact that you can't understand the way they feel pain as evidence that they don't. Geth are not just simple drones, they are fully evolved race with the capacity for emotion and thought and of whom have desires of their own. It is frankly just not fair to use the:
"Oh they are just machines so they aren't real"
As a justification for why the Quarians opted to attempt to destroy them all once they had gained the ability to think for themselves. Much less to justify why the Quarians plan of genocide is acceptible and when it comes right down to it the weapon experimentation on Geth prisoners cannot be justified.

[V-rex]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

I fear we are simply going to start going in circles, repeating ourselves, because we will soon get to the point of having to disagree politely.
Firstly, thank you for the name compliments ^^
Secondly, I suppose it comes down to what you consider a 'lifeform' and what you deem should have the same rights as those things that are born organically. I understand that myself and the others who agree with me may sound elitist about being organic (this is such a weird argument to have when the geth do not really even exist!!.. lol), but that is an unfair label. The Geth in my opinion are candles, they are pocket knives, they are curtains and they are toothpaste. They are nothing but a tool created in a factory. I dispose of my toothbrush when it starts to misbehave (bristles go haywire) and I will dispose of the Geth when they are dangerous.

Yes it was immature, nay premature, to try and eliminate the Geth when they had not done anything. Yes, it was a series of haughty mistakes to allow the Geth to have such intelligence and sentient existence as they do. Yes, it is somewhat 'fated' that the Quarians should end up the ones that are exiled because they created something that can destroy them. However, none of these things quantify the Geth being a candidate for the word 'justice'. They do not exist outside of Quarian tinkering. They do not for ONE MOMENT have a heart or a brain; they have wires and circuit boards, they CANNOT have emotions or thought. All they have is programming. There is no moral high ground for them to climb. It's a shame they cannot be exterminated the way a defective car can be recalled. (It's not fully a shame because it's a make-believe world and been an awesome story, sparking interesting debates)

This is also relevant to the post I made above, please look at it for reference.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

I did like the Quarians until I bothered to talk to Tali about the Geth in ME1. This changed my opinion because this is how it came across to me.

"So you struck first."
"Yes."
"Without provocation."
"That's right"
"And lost."
"Unfortunately"
"And they're the bad guys?"

You missed:
 
"But they were scary! We had to kill them."
"How were they scary?"
"They were going to attack us"
"How do you know that?"
"We treated them as slaves, why wouldn't they attack us?"

So on the one hand, the Quarians think that the Geth are unfeeling machines with no rights and on the other they figure they would feel badly about having been used as slaves.

Do they feel or not? If they don't feel, why would serving their original tasks be that horrible to them? Or at least, why would they feel it was somehow illogical or wrong? To even consider slavery to have been a bad thing, don't you have to have some moral sense regarding slavery?