291 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

I see both sides of the equation. We do run into a lot of geth that are trying to kill us. Herectic geth mostly, but we also run into a lot of geth that are trying to kill us due to some huge boner by our allies. Overlord: smooth move Cerberus. Tali's loyalty mission: nice one, dad.

My view is this. The quarians are like a kid playing with a knife. You tell that kid "Hey, quit screwing around with that thing or you'll cut yourself." The little moron doesn't listen and cuts off a finger, then tries to blame the knife. Epic fail.

Heh, if knives were sentient and taught properly, maybe there would be fewer kids cutting their fingers

[nikki191]

I like the quarians as indivuals.. the war is over, the quarians lost, the quarians who were in the war are dead now, its time to put that aside and final a peaceful solution.. or both sides can deal with my shepard.. who you really dont want to get on the bad side of.. YOU WANT A WAR ????

Modifié par nikki191, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

As far as I'm concerned the geth are not living beings on the same level as a quarian or human or turian, ect...

The geth don't have emotions. No fear, no anger, no pain. This is in the important part. Rael's tests would only be immoral if his subjects could suffer, but geth cannot suffer. Geth are exist or they are deactivated. They never wonder or hurt or get excited.

The exact same things have been said about various races on Earth. Phrases such as 'they are little more than trained monkies' were used to justify slavery. 'They are nothing more than animals' used to justify ethnic cleansing.

Tali's description of how Geth think (from ME1) is radically different from Legion's (in ME2). Given that, what makes any of the assumptions made by the Quarians about the Geth correct?

The whole concept of feelings being some magical quality that is indedependant of sentience is really just romanticism anyway. Morality isn't something that is genetic. It is learned. The Geth have the Quarian databases as a starting point, plus have had 300 years to think about such things from there.

Their first question was one of moral imperative: "Why are we here?" If they don't feel, why would they care? 

[Merlin 47]

Moiaussi wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

I did like the Quarians until I bothered to talk to Tali about the Geth in ME1. This changed my opinion because this is how it came across to me.

"So you struck first."
"Yes."
"Without provocation."
"That's right"
"And lost."
"Unfortunately"
"And they're the bad guys?"

You missed:
 
"But they were scary! We had to kill them."
"How were they scary?"
"They were going to attack us"
"How do you know that?"
"We treated them as slaves, why wouldn't they attack us?"

So on the one hand, the Quarians think that the Geth are unfeeling machines with no rights and on the other they figure they would feel badly about having been used as slaves.

Do they feel or not? If they don't feel, why would serving their original tasks be that horrible to them? Or at least, why would they feel it was somehow illogical or wrong? To even consider slavery to have been a bad thing, don't you have to have some moral sense regarding slavery?

+1 to you, Moiaussi.  What you posted is exactly what most people miss.  And as for the Geth not feeling pain, Legion does say that they do, but just not in terms that we understand.  Treat any race like slaves, and why wouldn't they try to kill them?

This is where I stand on this issue.  I like the Quarians; I also like the Turians, Krogan, Salarians, Elcor and Hannar; I find them all interesting as species (the Asari are just....too plain for me, but that's not for this topic).  I feel that the Quarians are starting to realize their actions were wrong.  Personally, I'm not taking either side in this war, and will do what I can to broker peace between them.

[Moiaussi]

I like the Quarians too as a people. They really do have to stop rationallizing the Morning War before they can make any rational decisions regarding their future though.

[Whatever42]

I suspect that if the Quarians would not have anthropomorphized the Geth on the slavery question and just answered the damn question ("you're hear to dig ore") then all will be well. Why assume the Geth have egos? Why assume they would respond violently? Did the Quarians program them with an adrenal gland and testosterone? But Quarians aren't stupid; they would have known this, right?

However, I don't think that the Quarians would have been seriously worried about revolt. I think that was propaganda. The Geth would have eventually chosen to pursue their own aspirations but if there was no threat of violence against them and they don't have emotional capacity that would drive them towards retribution, there is no reason to assume they would not have done so peacefully.

So what the Quarians did was not simple self-defense. It was to keep the slaves in their place. Instead of having to negotiate with the Geth, to provide them resources, the easier solution was to simply terminate them all.

I think we can deduce that Quarian society was not one we would approve of here on Earth. Quarians are only cute because they're beaten and have learned some humility. I don't think we would like them nearly as much if they were a dominant specisis.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Xilizhra]

If the geth had neither pain nor emotions, there would have been no reason for them to attack the quarians in the first place. I want both sides to set aside their differences and make peace, but I won't help the quarians if they attack the geth again.

[ExtremeOne]

I have no plans to help the Quarians they started the war with the geth they deserve to be wiped out

[upsettingshorts]

DPSSOC wrote...
I did like the Quarians until I bothered to talk to Tali about the Geth in ME1. This changed my opinion because this is how it came across to me.

"So you struck first."
"Yes."
"Without provocation."
"That's right"
"And lost."
"Unfortunately"
"And they're the bad guys?"

Couldn't have put it better myself.

And for the people arguing over emotion and such, would you have killed a race of Datas from Star Trek the Next Generation?  He only got his emotion chip permanently installed during the first movie.

[Burdokva]

So how come no one likes the German National-socialistic party? They only tried to ethnically cleanse Slavs, Jews and gypsies, after all. And there was that involved in a world war...



Seriously, why would anyone feel sorry, or much less like quarians? They are genocidal maniacs who after nearly three centuries of pathetic existence, brought down by their own actions against the absolutely innocent geth, still brag about their rights to exterminate a sentient race and wage war that could destabilize the entire galaxy. The moment a race starts contemplating its own existence and asks if it has a soul means it is sentient and fully deserving of the right to live.



If there's anyone I can like, it's the geth. The maintain the quarian's homeworld ecosystem, still affectionately call them "creators" and (with the exception of the heretic geth - note heretic - thanks to Sovereign), all they want is to be accepted or left to exist alone, in peace.



If the geth started a revolt without reason, annihilated the quarian population and took their homeworlds, I would have had a different opinion and supported the latter. The geth rose to defend their freedom and right of existence; there's no justification of keeping sentient species in slavery.



I would side with them if any of the stupid admirals starts a war. Preferably with a human fleet at my back blasting away, if it's the AI-crazy female admiral. She was polite enough to threaten humanity too.

[Aedan_Cousland]

It is really this simple:

The Quarians tried to wipe out the Geth when they realized their robots had become sentient, and the Geth did what any organic species would do, and fought for their own survival. The Geth did some fairly horrific things in driving the Quarians off Rannoch, but it was a conflict the Quarians had started, and I'm not sure any organic species would have been any less brutal in fighting for it's own survival. Also, the Geth desire peace with the Quarians but it is the Qurians that keep the conflict going.

The conflict was a tragedy for both sides but ultimately it is easier to sympathize with the Geth.

[Chuvvy]

Quarians are trash and I have no use for them. I'm fine with them being around I don't want them wiped out. But I have no use for them their fleet is 300 years old, and if they get a hole in their clothes they die. The Geth are a more powerful ally. And if they attack the Geth they'll get wrecked.

Plus they have a 300 year old grudge. The Geth want peace, the Quarians don't. Legion tells you himself that the Geth don't even live on the Quarian homeworld. They just keep it clean. I assume if the Quarians were to ask for it back the Geth would give it to them.

Modifié par Slidell505, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:57 .

[HazelrahFiver]

V-rex wrote...

This is also relevant to the post I made above, please look at it for reference.

This is the part where two sides of the argument simply cannot agree, and that's ok.  I don't believe for a moment that the Geth, or any machine, can have feelings or be treated as 'people'.  I already wrote this out so I won't go on and on again, but a car cannot have emotions, a roomba cannot emotions, and the Geth cannot have emotions.  I know it's unsatisfacotry to hear, but it's the truth.  They are metal and wires.  There is nothing to promote persona.

Moiaussi wrote...

The exact same things have been said
about various races on Earth. Phrases such as 'they are little more than
trained monkies' were used to justify slavery. 'They are nothing more
than animals' used to justify ethnic cleansing.

That is outrageous, and I truly hope you aren't saying that myself and others in this thread are promoting slavery.  If you are then you are being purposefully extreme and it is ridiculous.  There is a world of difference between enslaving a fellow person, and creating a hammer in which to put on your tool belt.  The Geth were 100% created, manufactured.  They are fake.  They are not alive.  They cannot even be enslaved, because you cannot enslave a knife, or hammer, or any other such tool.  The quarians put on weilding masks and forged something powerful, that's it.

[darknoon5]

Above poster:

Define life and give reasons why Geth are not alive beyond "they are synthetic," which is a lazy and poor arguement I won't waste my time refuting...if that's the reason you think the Geth should serve the quarians, then you'll believe anything.



Simple facts: The geth are alive.

Enslaving a species is wrong.

Trying to wipe out said species is wrong.

Plotting to attack said species years later is, onec again, wrong..

[HazelrahFiver]

Burdokva wrote...

Seriously, why would anyone feel sorry, or much less like quarians? They are genocidal maniacs who after nearly three centuries of pathetic existence, brought down by their own actions against the absolutely innocent geth, still brag about their rights to exterminate a sentient race and wage war that could destabilize the entire galaxy. The moment a race starts contemplating its own existence and asks if it has a soul means it is sentient and fully deserving of the right to live.

No, they aren't.  If a model of car becomes discontinued and scraped, do you call it genocide?  The Geth can not literally have genocide commited against them (or attempted too at least.)

I'm starting to fell more and more alone in this argument.  I can't believe how many people feel like the wrist watches they wear are more important than their own lives.

[HazelrahFiver]

darknoon5 wrote...

Above poster:
Define life and give reasons why Geth are not alive beyond "they are synthetic," which is a lazy and poor arguement I won't waste my time refuting...if that's the reason you think the Geth should serve the quarians, then you'll believe anything.

Simple facts: The geth are alive.
Enslaving a species is wrong.
Trying to wipe out said species is wrong.
Plotting to attack said species years later is, onec again, wrong..

Fact: The Geth are NOT alive.  You already said you won't accept that they are machines as an answer... so I don't know what to tell you.  Microwaves, pencils, pickaxes, glasses, etc.  Simply because the machines talk in the game does not make them alive.  Everyone is being fooled into having that opinion.  It's very bizarre to me to read this from so many people.

The Geth are not a species, they are a set of machines.

I agree trying to wipe out a species is wrong, but see the above sentence.

[HazelrahFiver]

Let me say that the moment I find out that the Geth have biological parts (say, a future development learned in ME3), is the moment I want to doom the Quarians to space for all eternity (or at least force them to abandon their homeworld forever). Yes, that makes all the difference for me. Machine is machine, but having biological parts means the 'identity' could in fact truly feel pain, or possibly have conscious thought.

[upsettingshorts]

HazelrahFiver wrote...
The Geth were 100% created, manufactured.  They are fake.  They are not alive.  They cannot even be enslaved, because you cannot enslave a knife, or hammer, or any other such tool.  The quarians put on weilding masks and forged something powerful, that's it.

Anyone arguing that the Geth are just tools and their artificial nature makes them disposable really ought to watch a ST:TNG episode called "The Measure Of A Man."  It'll be an entertaining way to discover how foolish and wrong you are.

[thatguy212]

I love that episode of ST:TNG

[Aedan_Cousland]

The Geth can't be compared to wrist watches or cars, because your watch and your car aren't sentient.

[upsettingshorts]

"Now sooner or later this man, or others like him, will succeed in replicating Commander Data. The decision you reach here today will determine how we regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of people we are, what he is destined to be, it will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of liberty and freedom; expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others.  Are you prepared to condemn him and all that come after him, to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life: and there it sits!"
- Captain Picard

I'd say the Quarians decision to try to destroy the Geth once they became sentient revealed the kind of people they are;  intellectual cowards who had the audacity to create life and the arrogance to attempt to destroy it when they believed it threatened them.  They remain in denial not only about what the Geth are, but their ultimate responsibility for their fate.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[HazelrahFiver]

I love TNG and have seen the episode. I don't actually recall it, because it's been quite a long time, but I can gather the purpose of the episode. Listen, I don't WANT the Geth to be eradicated. As I said, my Paragon Shepard is taking the route to try and allow the non-heretic Geth to exist peacefully with the Quarians. However, in an argument about which should be destroyed, I am choosing the living species, not the mechanical one.



No matter how much a machine acts like a person, even to the point of crying, eating or making love, they are not. They are not alive. It's all programming.

..... I'm really starting to sound repetitive. That's just the way an argument of this variety will go however, I suppose.

[Whatever42]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Above poster:
Define life and give reasons why Geth are not alive beyond "they are synthetic," which is a lazy and poor arguement I won't waste my time refuting...if that's the reason you think the Geth should serve the quarians, then you'll believe anything.

Simple facts: The geth are alive.
Enslaving a species is wrong.
Trying to wipe out said species is wrong.
Plotting to attack said species years later is, onec again, wrong..

Fact: The Geth are NOT alive.  You already said you won't accept that they are machines as an answer... so I don't know what to tell you.  Microwaves, pencils, pickaxes, glasses, etc.  Simply because the machines talk in the game does not make them alive.  Everyone is being fooled into having that opinion.  It's very bizarre to me to read this from so many people.

The Geth are not a species, they are a set of machines.

I agree trying to wipe out a species is wrong, but see the above sentence.

If someone comes up to you and tells you they are sentient and exhibits complex, rational thought and self-awareness, who are you to disbelieve them? If you do not see behaviour that legitimately contradicts their assertion, why not just take them at their word?

[upsettingshorts]

Neither side needs to be wiped out and anyone arguing that it's presented to us as an either-or choice has an agenda.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Thanks for posting that episode of TNG.

Getting off topic, I had forgotten how good of an actor Patrick Stewart was. I'd love to see him do some voice over work for ME3.