291 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Couldn't have put it better myself.

And for the people arguing over emotion and such, would you have killed a race of Datas from Star Trek the Next Generation?  He only got his emotion chip permanently installed during the first movie.

Even that was questionable at best. Data expressed emotion often, including caring for his pet cat.

[upsettingshorts]

Moiaussi wrote...
Even that was questionable at best. Data expressed emotion often, including caring for his pet cat.

Which even he himself couldn't quite explain.

You know, kind of like how Legion has Shepard's N7 armor.

[_purifico_]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

I love TNG and have seen the episode. I don't actually recall it, because it's been quite a long time, but I can gather the purpose of the episode. Listen, I don't WANT the Geth to be eradicated. As I said, my Paragon Shepard is taking the route to try and allow the non-heretic Geth to exist peacefully with the Quarians. However, in an argument about which should be destroyed, I am choosing the living species, not the mechanical one.

No matter how much a machine acts like a person, even to the point of crying, eating or making love, they are not. They are not alive. It's all programming.
..... I'm really starting to sound repetitive. That's just the way an argument of this variety will go however, I suppose.

Indeed you are repeating yourself. That is only because you have no arguments. You've been given lots of reasons as to why the geth are as sentient and "alive" as any other race. Yet you'd still opt for destroying them just because they are different (only if forced to chose - i'll give you that). Racism and xenophobia truely are the most revolting traits of humanity

[JPXD]

Hazelrah while I understand what motivates your clear prejudice against the Geth, I have to question if that prejudice does not blind you to the true philosophical definition of life.

It's obvious that you are motivated by a subconscious desire to "preserve organic" life. It's a natural, biological response to robotics most people have. We've been told time and time again: by religion and media alike, that life is organic and anything that opposes that definition of life is wrong. Look at movies like The Matrix, I Robot, etc.

The theory of the "uncanny valley" plays well into that natural response: I won't go into huge depth here, though I recommend you look into it, but basically the more humanoid a robotic lifeform becomes the more unsettled or disturbed humanity will feel towards the robot according to the theory.

Anyway, to my actual point:

"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing, for when I don't know what justice is, I'll hardly know whether it is a kind of virtue or not, or whether a person who has it is happy or unhappy." - Plato (The Republic)

During Legion's loyalty mission the geth give YOU the reigns of their fate. Why would they do this? If they are, as you say, not alive and are but toothbrushes this should be a simple choice for the geth -- blow themselves up and start fresh, because there are definitely more toothbrushes to be had in the universe. Yet the geth are torn, and some can argue almost FEARFUL of making a choice so permanent. They understand that they do not know the answer, that neither destruction nor rewrite is completely morally sound.

If fear isn't a common trait shared among the living I do not know what is.

Modifié par JPXD, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[nelly21]

It's weird. I like Tali (not a Talimancer just think her character is cool) and I love Kal-Reeger (badass), but I'm not really a fan of the Quarians.



I love Legion but don't really think of the Geth as living things so couldn't care less if they're blown to smithereens in ME 3.



At the end of the day though, I would feel safer in real life with wandering space gypsies than I would with self replicating homicidal robots.



Will be interesting to see how Bioware handles the conflict though. I can't really see the Quarians winning in a straight up fight.

[upsettingshorts]

The problem with the argument isn't racism or xenophobia, it's the fact that it is based on the premise of a false dilemma.

Nowhere in the game are we presented with a scenario where we must choose if we want the Quarians or Geth to exist. Anyone - in the game or on the forums - who presents such a question has an agenda.

No, encouraging or discouraging the Quarians' war plans doesn't count.  That's a much more complicated issue than a simple either/or.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[JPXD]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The problem with the argument isn't racism or xenophobia, it's the fact that it is based on the premise of a false dilemma.

Nowhere in the game are we presented with a scenario where we must choose if we want the Quarians or Geth to exist. Anyone - in the game or on the forums - who presents such a question has an agenda.

No, encouraging or discouraging the Quarians' war plans doesn't count.  That's a much more complicated issue than a simple either/or.

Well of course people come into this argument with an agenda, because the Quarian vs. Geth issue is really an Organic vs. Robotic issue which plays into people's sense of morality IRL.

This has become more than just a discussion about the game, but a debate about philosophy and morality.

Modifié par JPXD, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[Moiaussi]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

That is outrageous, and I truly hope you aren't saying that myself and others in this thread are promoting slavery.  If you are then you are being purposefully extreme and it is ridiculous.  There is a world of difference between enslaving a fellow person, and creating a hammer in which to put on your tool belt.  The Geth were 100% created, manufactured.  They are fake.  They are not alive.  They cannot even be enslaved, because you cannot enslave a knife, or hammer, or any other such tool.  The quarians put on weilding masks and forged something powerful, that's it.

If they were humans cloned on an industrial scale, would you feel the same even though they would be just as 'manufactured?' Miranda is heavily gene-modified. Shepard was completely rebuilt nearly from scratch after his death. Most human biotics have implants to focus/channel their power. Where is the line between 'natural' and 'manufactured' and isn't that an artificial line in and of itself?

Fake? They are not imaginary. At one point human slaves were bred just like cattle (although for labour not for consumption). They were considered chattel, and for very similar reasoning to what you are using with respect to the Geth.

As for 'extreme' it is not so much that I am accusing you of promoting slavery as challenging your prejudice against the Geth. The fact that comparing your attitude towards the Geth with that in the past regarding African slaves or other enslaved races or cultures is distasteful to you does not make it a false comparason.

[nelly21]

JPXD wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The problem with the argument isn't racism or xenophobia, it's the fact that it is based on the premise of a false dilemma.

Nowhere in the game are we presented with a scenario where we must choose if we want the Quarians or Geth to exist. Anyone - in the game or on the forums - who presents such a question has an agenda.

No, encouraging or discouraging the Quarians' war plans doesn't count.  That's a much more complicated issue than a simple either/or.

Well of course people come into this argument with an agenda, because the Quarian vs. Geth issue is really an Organic vs. Robotic issue which plays into people's sense of morality IRL.

This has become more than just a discussion about the game, but a debate about philosophy and morality.

No. It's a discussion about a game. We're discussing space gypsies and killer robots and which we prefer to rule in our custom galaxy spanning story. In a game. On our Xbox. This isn't exactly fodder for Plato and Aristotle.

[Moiaussi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Even that was questionable at best. Data expressed emotion often, including caring for his pet cat.

Which even he himself couldn't quite explain.

You know, kind of like how Legion has Shepard's N7 armor.

Exactly. Emotions, instincts, etc are not 'illogical.' They they represent bonds and associations that become strong enough over time to become instinctive.

To the extent they are genetic, they are pre-programmed (and if the Quarians didn't pre-program the Geth with an affinity for Quarians, they are idiots). To the extent they are learned, the Geth could learn them too.

Since the Geth think faster than organic races, it is even plausable that the are the most instinctual race in ME, with the possible exception of the Rachnii.

[JPXD]

nelly21 wrote...

JPXD wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The problem with the argument isn't racism or xenophobia, it's the fact that it is based on the premise of a false dilemma.

Nowhere in the game are we presented with a scenario where we must choose if we want the Quarians or Geth to exist. Anyone - in the game or on the forums - who presents such a question has an agenda.

No, encouraging or discouraging the Quarians' war plans doesn't count.  That's a much more complicated issue than a simple either/or.

Well of course people come into this argument with an agenda, because the Quarian vs. Geth issue is really an Organic vs. Robotic issue which plays into people's sense of morality IRL.

This has become more than just a discussion about the game, but a debate about philosophy and morality.

No. It's a discussion about a game. We're discussing space gypsies and killer robots and which we prefer to rule in our custom galaxy spanning story. In a game. On our Xbox. This isn't exactly fodder for Plato and Aristotle.

I suppose you're right... though I like to think that gaming is a new avenue of story telling that uses the same tools and techniques other pieces of literature utilize. This could just be a method of rationalizing my ridiculous amounts of gaming.

[nelly21]

JPXD wrote...

I suppose you're right... though I like to think that gaming is a new avenue of story telling that uses the same tools and techniques other pieces of literature utilize. This could just be a method of rationalizing my ridiculous amounts of gaming.

Lol. That's the same excuse I give my wife.

She doesn't buy it.

[mopotter]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Because they don't know they're beaten.

well i guess that mean they should completely stop existing as a species or something right? what if someone said that to humans? "you guys should just give up already, the robots have you humans beaten... become extinct. stop trying to survive and remaining populated. you lost, you have no rights in this universe. the robots do.", you in a different sense.

No they should not stop existing.  They just need to stop living in the past.  The past is stagnant.  They are an amazing species who managed to build a sustainable society on space ships.   Fighting the geth would not win them back their original home world.  Even Kal Reegar (he is a quarian I would be happy to spend a lot of time with) says it would be futile to try and reclaim it.  

If they had spent as much time working on finding a new planet as they have spent thinking about their past glory, they would have a new world populated with little Quarians and already be on their way to getting rid of the suits.

I like the Quarians.  At least some of them.  Not all of them. Like Kaidan said ' their jerks and saints, just like us".

[Burdokva]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

I love TNG and have seen the episode. I don't actually recall it, because it's been quite a long time, but I can gather the purpose of the episode. Listen, I don't WANT the Geth to be eradicated. As I said, my Paragon Shepard is taking the route to try and allow the non-heretic Geth to exist peacefully with the Quarians. However, in an argument about which should be destroyed, I am choosing the living species, not the mechanical one.

No matter how much a machine acts like a person, even to the point of crying, eating or making love, they are not. They are not alive. It's all programming.
..... I'm really starting to sound repetitive. That's just the way an argument of this variety will go however, I suppose.

Define "alive"? What do you think makes something alive? That it is biological? Even to this day scientist can't properly explain the transition from non-biological to biological material (not familiar with the proper English terms), but if you consider geth not alive just because their bodies are made from metal, than you should also realize our tissue is a product of dead matter, like metals. Whether they mutated, evolved, doesn't matter. Human blood is red because of the iron in it, after all.

So, obviously, the type of matter something is made from is irrelevant when it comes to sentient species. I don't consider a toaster, or a vacuum cleaner, even a PC or a primitive robot "alive" compared to even the least mentally capable animal, because machines do not comprehend themselves as such.

Geth, however, clearly do. They have a concept of a soul, self-determine, they perceive themselves as living, they are capable or though and reason. How can you consider them anything other than a sentient race?

And no, the quarian/geth debate is anything but biological vs synthetic - that's the overall story arc of Mass Effect, that's the dilemma of the Reapers - ascension and immortality at the cost of personal life as we understand it. The geth question is rather does someone has possession of another, even if the former created the latter; even the latter is a robot. It's a concept of right of existence. It's not entirely different from a nation of slaves who revolted to overthrow (or in some cases, destroy) their masters to achieve freedom. Human history is full of such cases...

[upsettingshorts]

This mopotter - she understands what I was saying and deserves a cookie! Perhaps a sugar cookie? I like them, but my friends always seem to think they're bland.



But yes, I was basically trying to say that they are stuck in the past and need to move on. Their romanticism over reclaiming their homeworld is dangerous and counterproductive. That might be easy for an "outsider" to say, but they're desperately in need of that kind of wake up call that an outside perspective is capable of delivering.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Gabey5]

we cant see their faces..

[nelly21]

Damn those cookies look good.

[Lvl20DM]

I think the story of the Quarians and the Geth is meant to be seen as a tragedy. The Quarians accidentally created a sentient race and then, out of fear, attempted to eradicate it. The Geth are a new race (and a new kind of race) - they are children in the sense that they do not understand their place in the universe. It seems that the Geth have an affection for their creators (they refer to them as Creators, for one). They seem to have adopted elements of Quarian culture (see the mourning dirge from ME 1). Both sides have committed terrible acts against one another, but if they had taken the path of diplomacy and understanding instead of War, both would be in a better place today.



The rest of the Galaxy, particularly the council races, don't like the Quarians because they created the Geth. And the organic species are frightened by them. I'm not so sure that we will be given the choice to side with the Quarians or the Geth in ME3. I'm not even sure that the statements we make the Admiralty Board will have an impact on Quarian actions in ME3. I do think Admiral Xen will play a part in one or more missions in the next game, though likely as a villain attempting to use "hacked" Geth and Quarian allies to threaten either the Flotilla or the Geth or both.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Something to keep in mind is that none of the Quarians alive today were there for the Morning War. Their attitudes are based in large part on the stories and attitudes passed down to them by their great^Nth grandparents.

[kregano]

mopotter wrote...
If they had spent as much time working on finding a new planet as they have spent thinking about their past glory, they would have a new world populated with little Quarians and already be on their way to getting rid of the suits.

The Council threatened to bombard a planet that the Quarians had established a settlement on. Fear of that kind of response probably is partially responsible for the limited prosettlement sentiments among the Quarians.

[upsettingshorts]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Something to keep in mind is that none of the Quarians alive today were there for the Morning War. Their attitudes are based in large part on the stories and attitudes passed down to them by their great^Nth grandparents.

Yep, it's romanticism.

kregano wrote...
The Council threatened to bombard a planet that the Quarians had established a settlement on. Fear of that kind of response probably is partially responsible for the limited prosettlement sentiments among the Quarians.

Indeed, the more one delves into the problem the worse the Council looks. They are propped up as some kind of wise leadership, but they're often childish and vindictive. Their incompetence is fairly staggering.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Jonesey2k]

Quarians are the ME version of Pikeys. Nuff said.

[nelly21]

Jonesey2k wrote...

Quarians are the ME version of Pikeys. Nuff said.

Yagetyurselfacaravan. Periwinkleblue.

I love that movie.

[Moiaussi]

nelly21 wrote...

Damn those cookies look good.

This is the true tragedy of the Quarian/Geth saga.... the Quarians cannot enjoy those cookies because of their suits and the Geth cannot because of using a completely different fuel source.

Truely tragic

[mopotter]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

That would fall under the mistake the Quarians made. They built something stronger than themselves and now it wants to revolt. Don't think for a moment the Geth are alive or deserve to be alive. They are cd players. They do not deserve respect. The person who created the cd player deserves respect, and the player itself should be treated carefully as to not cause damage.

The only way in which the Geth have the right to defend themselves is because they are lucky the Quarians screwed up and gave them that option. Outside of that, no, they do not.

Geth recognized  a threat and defended themselves.  Anyone who can recognize a threat has the right to defend them self.  Indicates that they are aware of difference between being alive (functional) and being turned off (dead).    

I Robot;  Blade Runner (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep); Data; and Bender.  Either society stays away from the idea of robotic servants or accepts the fact that someday years down the road they will be bit in the butt. My guess is they will ignore possible future effects because humanity always seems to think - let the next generation handle the problem.

I support the Geth and Quarians working together.  And some of them probably will.

edit word change

Modifié par mopotter, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:12 .