291 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

everyone says the poor quarians have done nothing wrong well i guess you all forgot who started the war

[fongiel24]

Does anybody else find Tali's reasoning on the Alarei to be a little flawed?

If Shepard suggests that the quarians find another planet to colonize, Tali gets angry and states that if the quarians tried to colonize a new planet it would take them hundreds of years for their immune systems to adapt, but if they take back their homeworld it would only take decades.

The problem with Tali's reasoning here is... the quarians have already been trying to take back their homeworld for hundreds of years. If they had given up after a few decades, it seems there'd be a decent chance they'd have found and re-adapted to a new homeworld already.

Additionally, for the quarians to take back their homeworld, you're talking about them having to fight through all the geth. The heretic fleet that attacked the Citadel managed to beat down the Citadel fleet, possibly even destroying the Destiny Ascension, the most powerful dreadnought in the known galaxy. The heretics are only a faction of the geth. It's reasonable to assume that the "true" geth are even more numerous than the heretics, since they managed to force the heretics to build their station outside geth space. The Migrant Fleet is huge, but many of its ships are also antiquated and not all of them are warships. How do the quarians expect to fight through and prevail over the hordes of "true" geth? The geth have been steadily building their numbers and evolving, while due to space and resource constraints the quarians maintain zero population growth. Every day the geth numbers grow and continue to evolve while the quarians remain stagnant at best.

Modifié par fongiel24, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Gavinthelocust]

Because they're vengeful pricks who think that creating life out of nothing, the ultimate accomplishment for any civilization, is an abomination and put themselves into the place of homelessness and poverty because they are too rash. The Geth on the other hand at least try at peace and act more like sensible people if a bit too literal about things.

[Anacronian Stryx]

well I'm not sure it's that easy..in the end if we got kicked out of Earth then i can easy see humanity spending hundreds of years trying to get Earth back.

[ExtremeOne]

fongiel24 wrote...

Does anybody else find Tali's reasoning on the Alarei to be a little flawed?

If Shepard suggests that the quarians find another planet to colonize, Tali gets angry and states that if the quarians tried to colonize a new planet it would take them hundreds of years for their immune systems to adapt, but if they take back their homeworld it would only take decades.

The problem with Tali's reasoning here is... the quarians have already been trying to take back their homeworld for hundreds of years. If they had given up after a few decades, it seems there'd be a decent chance they'd have found and re-adapted to a new homeworld already.

Additionally, for the quarians to take back their homeworld, you're talking about them having to fight through all the geth. The heretic fleet that attacked the Citadel managed to beat down the Citadel fleet, possibly even destroying the Destiny Ascension, the most powerful dreadnought in the known galaxy. The heretics are only a faction of the geth. It's reasonable to assume that the "true" geth are even more numerous than the heretics, since they managed to force the heretics to build their station outside geth space. The Migrant Fleet is huge, but many of its ships are also antiquated and not all of them are warships. How do the quarians expect to fight through and prevail over the hordes of "true" geth? The geth have been steadily building their numbers and evolving, while due to space and resource constraints the quarians maintain zero population growth. Every day the geth numbers grow and continue to evolve while the quarians remain stagnant at best.

   



her reasoning is bullsh*t 

[thepaladin1]

Blame the sins of the father on the son much?

[jbblue05]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

jbblue05 please do try to follow the conversation. 

Honestly this thread has my full attention

I did not bring up it was a response to your post - my response was that your response is Completely irrelevant.

I was responding to your post about organics and geth both are machines. Are you saying your post was irrelevant also

You stated that the Geth are still dangerous and my reply was that so are the Turians and every other organic race that doesn't set the Geth apart from the rest.

your post made it seem like you were excluding the Geth and targeting organic races

Yes i noted that you used words like "probably" and "chance" and my response was that you don't know - in fact you're basing your whole assumption on the Geth as being baby killers on something you have no way of knowing and then i used an unlikely example of "Quarians still living on their home world" to show how little we know about what actually happened.

So 99% of the Quarian population was killed but no Children were harmed in the process     We can agree that we don't know how the Morning War started.

In your original post you wrote If you believe the Geth should be free then we should apply the same logic to all machinery because machines are just slaves to sentient beings.

My answer was : Yes all sentient machines should be set free - In fact even the Quarians believes this and that is why they panicked and started the morning war.

I know exactly what I wrote I don't need you to remind me.
Your answer is what confused me you said the Quarians believe the Geth should be free
If they believed that why did they attack the Geth

You stated : What I'm trying to say is no matter how much the Geth may seem like people they are who they are machines they can't be trusted by organics just like werewolves aren't trusted in the Dragon Age world

I then replied with a question : Is there reason to trust the Krogans, Salarians or even the Asari just because they are organics?

I already answer this in a previous post

I hope this recap has helped you to follow the topic.

It probably helped you more then it helped me
But thanks for your concern

Modifié par jbblue05, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[DPSSOC]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I actually like the Quarians a whole lot - they are a fascinating species, They made mistakes with the Geth no doubt about that but they have also payed for those mistakes.

Ok every time I hear/read this it makes me want to strangle somebody.  Whether or not the Quarians have "paid" for their mistake is irrellevant because they haven't learned from it.  It makes me think people completely misunderstand the principles behind imprisonment vs physical punishment in crime.

[Anacronian Stryx]

DPSSOC wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I actually like the Quarians a whole lot - they are a fascinating species, They made mistakes with the Geth no doubt about that but they have also payed for those mistakes.

Ok every time I hear/read this it makes me want to strangle somebody.  Whether or not the Quarians have "paid" for their mistake is irrellevant because they haven't learned from it.  It makes me think people completely misunderstand the principles behind imprisonment vs physical punishment in crime.

Weather or not they have learned from their mistakes is irrelevant, You can still like and sympathise with a people who has learned nothing from their mistakes and yes you can pity somebody who has payed such a huge price as the Quarians has in this case.

But sure you just go look for somebody to strangle.

[Moiaussi]

My point was to answer your statement :If you believe the Geth should be free then we should apply the same logic to all machinery because machines are just slaves to sentient beings.

So you consider horses and mules sentient? Interesting. How about trees? They are organic....  I mean if you feel that if some machines are sentient, they all must be, you must obviously think the same about organics, right?

Morning War had over billions of casualties.

It is interesting that the Geth casualty counts aren't even considered.....

The Geth and Quarians can be at peace if Quarians find a new homeworld  but they can't peacefully co-exist  

Why not? Millions died in WWII, and yet there is peace without Germany or Japan having to have been 'erased.'

[Whatever42]

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Being biological is not a precondition for sentience.

Prove it.

I see no proof the geth have emotions, I see no proof they are alive. The geth are computer programs. A computer program doesn't feel, it doesn't even think the way a person does. There is no internal voice, no introspection.

Citing Star Trek doesn't help you any because Star Trek is a fictional show written by people who often have an agenda.

The geth are dangerous rogue A.I.'s and the galaxy will be better off if they are either subdued under human/quarian control or eradicated completely.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and it tells you flat out that its a duck, why disbelieve it? What possible useful purpose does it serve except to allow you to harm them in some fashion and justify it within your own ethical system.

I've seen people do this with animals. Why shouldn't I torture your dog? It doesn't feel pain. Prove it feels pain. Oh, its just acting like its pain. It doesn't feel pain like us.

Quarians are genocidal fascists and the galaxy needs to keep them on a tight leash.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and it tells you flat out that its a duck, why disbelieve it?

It's a computer program. If it looks like apple juice, smells like apple juice, and tastes like apple juice... it might actually be water and some artificial flavoring.

Most Geth have sapience, and animal level intelligence.

However Legion is an indication of sentience or awareness.
Legion however still cant past the Turing test quite obviously.

However the question of whether the Geth are just clever programs vs sentient, is like the argument in philosophy if humans are clever animals vs sentient.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Pacifien]

If this is going to turn into another discussion about the geth and sapience, please start a new thread as the original intent of this thread was about the quarians.

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...


[/i]So you consider horses and mules sentient? Interesting. How about trees? They are organic....  I mean if you feel that if some machines are sentient, they all must be, you must obviously think the same about organics, right?

Wow I never siad that but if that's what you want to believe then go ahead.
All organic life has to have some level of sentience I'm sure they are aware they are alive since they react to changes in their enviorment.  But not as intelligent as species capable of calculus

Same could apply to machines but I don't considers refined metal people

It is interesting that the Geth casualty counts aren't even considered.....

I'm guessing no one really cared since the Geth can rebuild their numbers in weeks and they don't have a gestation period like the Quarians

 ]
Why not? Millions died in WWII, and yet there is peace without Germany or Japan having to have been 'erased.'

We're talking about billions of death, losing your homeworld forced to be nomads.pariahs to the entire galaxy
ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT 

Germany and Japan have actual people you know Organics and killing a race of organics is a big no-no

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Being biological is not a precondition for sentience.

Prove it.

I see no proof the geth have emotions, I see no proof they are alive. The geth are computer programs. A computer program doesn't feel, it doesn't even think the way a person does. There is no internal voice, no introspection.

Legion, at least, obviously does have internal voice and introspection.  Legion literally has internal conversations.

Your intelligence, self-awareness, and sapience are an emergent property of the billions of neurons acting as one.  Legion is an emergent property of ~1100 programs acting as one.

As for emotions, why are you including that as a prerequsite of sapience?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Again, there is no pure villain here and no pure victim. The Quarians and the Geth aren't in a cheap melodrama, they're both in the same sad tragedy.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because they are space gypsies in a rather large way, and no one likes gypsies. ( not my personal opinion on them, but rather what I would think the people in game think of them )

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Being biological is not a precondition for sentience.

Prove it.

I see no proof the geth have emotions, I see no proof they are alive. The geth are computer programs. A computer program doesn't feel, it doesn't even think the way a person does. There is no internal voice, no introspection.

Citing Star Trek doesn't help you any because Star Trek is a fictional show written by people who often have an agenda.

The geth are dangerous rogue A.I.'s and the galaxy will be better off if they are either subdued under human/quarian control or eradicated completely.

Ummm, the GETH are fictional too. What you are saying is that because we haven't met any sentient AI's in RL, that AI's can't be sentient? Regardless of what any writer might say?

As for proof that non-organics can have emotions, I would point out that emotions are stimulus responses. What emotions do you believe Geth would not have? Love is a recocnition of compatability and the bonds that form thereof. Fear is a fight or flight response and a natural derivation of self preservation mandates. Anger might be unlikely as that is usually an adrenal response, but lack of anger would seem a strange thing to hold against them. Sadness? It is rational to regret loss.

Why wouldn't they have emotions, other than your assumption that they wouldn't? Oh, and not being programmed with any given thing means nothing. AI includes the ability to modify one's own programming, by definition.

[DPSSOC]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok every time I hear/read this it makes me want to strangle somebody.  Whether or not the Quarians have "paid" for their mistake is irrellevant because they haven't learned from it.  It makes me think people completely misunderstand the principles behind imprisonment vs physical punishment in crime.

Weather or not they have learned from their mistakes is irrelevant, You can still like and sympathise with a people who has learned nothing from their mistakes and yes you can pity somebody who has payed such a huge price as the Quarians has in this case.

It is relevant if they've learned from their mistakes because it shows they've acknowledged it.  The Quarians haven't and sympathizing with them just enables them to continue playing the victim.  I'm not saying the Quarians were completely in the wrong, I can understand why they did what they did even if I disagree, but they were in the wrong.  By not acknowledging their mistake, not learning from it, they eliminate any sympathy I might feel for their plight and replace it with anger about how blind, stubborn, and stupid they're being.

For example say someone jams a fork into an electrical outlet, gets shocked, and then blames the outlet for shocking them, completely absolving themselves of blame for what happened.  Exactly how long are you going to feel sympathy for the twit?

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
But sure you just go look for somebody to strangle.

Don't have to look I'm in a Library, I'm surrounded by candidates.

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Being biological is not a precondition for sentience.

Prove it.

I see no proof the geth have emotions, I see no proof they are alive. The geth are computer programs. A computer program doesn't feel, it doesn't even think the way a person does. There is no internal voice, no introspection.

What are you talking about their whole decision making process is nothing but introspection.  What else do you call communing with thousands of different points of view to form a consensus?  Is an individual Geth program sentient no, no more than one of your brain cells is.  The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and the gestalt intellect the multiple Geth comprise is sentient.

Shandepared wrote...
Citing Star Trek doesn't help you any because Star Trek is a fictional show written by people who often have an agenda.

The origin of the question does not detract from its philosophical merit.  Aristotle had an agenda, Plato had an agenda, Nietchze had an agenda, does that take away from their works?

Shandepared wrote...
The geth are dangerous rogue A.I.'s and the galaxy will be better off if they are either subdued under human/quarian control or eradicated completely.

How are the Geth dangerous?  I've pointed this out before for 300 years they posed no threat to anyone (ok people dumb enough to enter their space aside) until GOD came and told them to go out and kill.  Can any other species claim they've only done violence to another species twice in 300 years?  If it takes either the threat of anihilation or divine intervention to provoke the Geth I'm pretty sure we're safe so long as we leave them alone.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

It's a computer program. If it looks like apple juice, smells like apple juice, and tastes like apple juice... it might actually be water and some artificial flavoring.

If the water and artificial flavouring had all the nutirion and flavour of apple juice, other than for semantic purposes, why would you not consider it equivalent to apple juice?

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The origin of the question does not
detract from its philosophical merit.  Aristotle had an agenda, Plato
had an agenda, Nietchze had an agenda, does that take away from their
works?

Star Trek isn't quite on the level of Plato.

Depends on your opinion of Plato I suppose.  But how does one assign value to philisophical ideals.  Is it their complexity?  Longevity?  Origin?  Intent?  What?  How do you assign value to an idea?  However the question still stands; what is required for sentience?

Or perhaps we should ask how do we view the human mind?  You can say the Geth are nothing but wires and programming I can just as easily say human beings are just chemical reactions and electrical impulses.  Brain receives stimulus A, produces reaction B. resulting in the body taking action C; nothing more than an organic If, Then, Else program.  Even in personality people are who they are and can no more change or deny it than a machine can it's own programming, the best we can do is create the illusion of change.

Shandepared wrote...
If you raise Star Trek then I raise Star Wars, and Star Wars is worth a lot more money. Therefore I win.

Which Star Wars are we talking about?  Original trilogy, prequel trilogy, or Extended Universe?