291 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Which Star Wars are we talking about?  Original trilogy, prequel trilogy, or Extended Universe?

The entirety.

Then I submit IG-88 from the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy a sentient droid given all the rights and priveledges of a member of the Bounty Hunters Guild.  Star Wars sides with the Geth.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

That's not quite the same. Legion IS those runtimes communicating. You could say that an insect has introspection because the various processes in its body are interacting the same way, dictating how the organism responds to stimulus. I remain unconvinced.

Actually, no. "Legion" is a Geth mobile platform serving as a colony of Geth. The individual Geth in that colony work cooperatively to operate the Legion platform. The Geth seem to have either evolved since Tali's description in ME1, or she was simply incorrect. More likely they evolved.

I wish I got a dollar for each time I said this line: I've explained that already.

Geth have no rights and no moral value to me because they have no emotions. This means you cannot hurt a geth. You can't torture one. Rael's experiments were not unethical because the geth were not suffering.

Other than you say so, what is your proof? How do they do damage control with no pain response? You are saying that they are content if completely disabled? killed? if so, why was there a war?

Star Trek isn't quite on the level of Plato.

If you raise Star Trek then I raise Star Wars, and Star Wars is worth a lot more money. Therefore I win.

Are you really going to argue that R2D2 and C3PO were emotionless? Not to mention IG-88 running about as an autonomous droid bounty hunter with no appearant actual 'owner.' Droid rights never seemed all that clear in Star Wars.

[jbblue05]

wiggles89 wrote...

Shandapared wrote...

Geth have no rights and no moral value to me because they have no emotions. This means you cannot hurt a geth. You can't torture one. Rael's experiments were not unethical because the geth were not suffering.

Well, no. The important part is that Geth have self interest, which means things can be done against their will. If the Geth Rael did tests on didn't desire the testing then they're immoral. Emotions are overrated.

The Geth are the Quarians enemy so it makes sense to study your enemy.Geth don't feel pain they self-destruct refined metal doesn't feel pain.
When Legion woke up he didn't scream out  Oh the Agony! 

Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

All that proves is that the Bounty Hunters Guild is filled with retards. After all, Boba Fett is a member and he's one of the worst characters in the EU.

So... any source that disagrees with you (even when you were the one citing it) gets dismissed off hand?

[jbblue05]

wiggles89 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Geth are the Quarians enemy so it makes sense to study your enemy.Geth don't feel pain they self-destruct refined metal doesn't feel pain.
When Legion woke up he didn't scream out  Oh the Agony! 

Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

Um, yeah, whatever. Did you actually read my post? Cuz that's kinda important.

Yeah I read it that's why I responded to it.

The Geth in Rael's experiments were random geth parts what self-interest do they have?

When you started your post you said "well no"  implying you didn't agree with what the poster said

Did I read it wrong if so clarify your intentions

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually, no. "Legion" is a Geth mobile platform serving as a colony of Geth.

No, all geth platforms consist of multiple programs. "Legion" is just a special platform that contains more than usual.

Geth platforms, but the Geth consider themselves the programs, not the platforms. Legion is pretty clear about that.

For us outsiders, it is easy to think of the bodies as being them, but per Legion's description, they consider bodies as being more like vehicles.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

By and large nobody in the Star Wars[ universe considers droids to be living beings. Sure, there are some exceptions.

In Mass Effect most people consider A.I. to be living entities with rights and such. There are those who disagree though, like Admiral Xen.

It is not just the Bounty Hunter's Guild that accepts IG-88. IG is well armed, yet not challenged on being a droid and is generally accepted. The empire didn't object to dealing with IG as if said droid was any other bounty hunter.

Most droids are not as advanced as IG or R2, though. The distinction is in specific design or species. Other earth mammals are not considered equal to humans either. Does that mean humans aren't sentient?

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

The Geth in Rael's experiments were random geth parts what self-interest do they have?

Apparently someone wasn't paying attention during a certain part of the loyalty mission.

Actually that mission was strange when you think about it. When they put the mobile platforms back together, what Geth did they use to occupy them? Do the Geth no longer erase on 'death' the way they used to in ME1? Or were the Quarians using old algorithms from 100 years ago? Or were they using partially corrupted Geth recovered from disabled memory cores and guessing to fill in the gaps?

On what was the research based and thus how valid is it really?

[Arijharn]

Legion can reason, therefore it's implied that other Geth can too.



Whether this is a programmed condition or not is in my opinion irrelevant (I guess if you want to be pedantic, perhaps 'humans' being capable of reasoning is 'programmed' into us as well, a product of our growth and interactions with our environment).



Legion can make nonsensical decisions, as his willingness to repair his carapace using non-standard parts (the N7 armor) and inability to categorically state why it chose this decision is to me proof beyond doubt that the Geth really shouldn't be called 'artificial intelligence' but something with perhaps less negative connotations (isn't it being pushed in universe that they should be called 'synthetic intelligences'?).



To me, it is clear then to me that the Geth should be treated with the same due respect that you should treat anyone else.

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

The Geth in Rael's experiments were random geth parts what self-interest do they have?

Apparently someone wasn't paying attention during a certain part of the loyalty mission.

Actually that mission was strange when you think about it. When they put the mobile platforms back together, what Geth did they use to occupy them? Do the Geth no longer erase on 'death' the way they used to in ME1? Or were the Quarians using old algorithms from 100 years ago? Or were they using partially corrupted Geth recovered from disabled memory cores and guessing to fill in the gaps?

On what was the research based and thus how valid is it really?

Tali's loyalty mission always confused me for this very reason.

What exactly was she sending back? Just hardware? Software? They sort of make it sound like she just sent back hardware, in which case I'm at a loss.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

What exactly was she sending back? Just hardware? Software? They sort of make it sound like she just sent back hardware, in which case I'm at a loss.

I don't think we're supposed to look at it too deeply to be honest. If you recall though you can ask Tali this in ME1 and she says something like "if you're quick, lucky and resourceful, you can sometimes save portions"... or words to that effect.

[jbblue05]

wiggles89 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

The Geth in Rael's experiments were random geth parts what self-interest do they have?

Apparently someone wasn't paying attention during a certain part of the loyalty mission.

They were random geth parts assembled by the Quarians.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think we're supposed to look at it too deeply to be honest. If you recall though you can ask Tali this in ME1 and she says something like "if you're quick, lucky and resourceful, you can sometimes save portions"... or words to that effect.

So, it's another Wilson Incident then, we're meant to just overlook it.

My issue is that it seems like geth software would be very dangerous. And she said she made sure not to send back anything that was even remotely dangerous.

[Arijharn]

My guess is that she didn't intentionally send back Geth software, but since the whole point basically of her sending back the hardware in the first place was to see how the Geth evolved, then perhaps it was unavoidable.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

My guess is that she didn't intentionally send back Geth software, but since the whole point basically of her sending back the hardware in the first place was to see how the Geth evolved, then perhaps it was unavoidable.

But her father was deliberately trying to ressurrect Geth from those parts. So... what programs did they use and how valid were the experiments without modern Geth inhabiting the rebuilt mobile platforms?

[Throw_this_away]

I find Quarians boring.  Not having a face to see does that to me.  At least the geth can raise and lower their "brow"

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

My guess is that she didn't intentionally send back Geth software, but since the whole point basically of her sending back the hardware in the first place was to see how the Geth evolved, then perhaps it was unavoidable.

But her father was deliberately trying to ressurrect Geth from those parts. So... what programs did they use and how valid were the experiments without modern Geth inhabiting the rebuilt mobile platforms?

I think we really need to know where a given mobile platform's software is stored.

If we knew the answer to that, then we might hypothesize that Tali sent some software back accidentally. Failing that, it's possible Rael and his team created some geth programs for use in this experiment. I mean, they created geth software in the beginning, didn't they?

[upsettingshorts]

Or um, they were getting back materials from more sources than just Tali.

That was what I figured.  It would make the "we'd work faster if Tali sent back more useful stuff" line somewhat difficult to explain, but that could have just been an issue of wanting a greater volume of workable materials.

Remember the trial was about politics, and Tali is super famous.  Draws more attention to the Admirals' agendas.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[PAVELOW FO SHO]

The Quarians got what was coming to them,