291 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

My guess is that she didn't intentionally send back Geth software, but since the whole point basically of her sending back the hardware in the first place was to see how the Geth evolved, then perhaps it was unavoidable.

But her father was deliberately trying to ressurrect Geth from those parts. So... what programs did they use and how valid were the experiments without modern Geth inhabiting the rebuilt mobile platforms?

I think we really need to know where a given mobile platform's software is stored.

If we knew the answer to that, then we might hypothesize that Tali sent some software back accidentally. Failing that, it's possible Rael and his team created some geth programs for use in this experiment. I mean, they created geth software in the beginning, didn't they?

I always just assumed that the Geth work (as mobile platforms go) as 'distributed' networks, that each Geth 'VI' is stored by itself and gains complexity and understanding by communicating with other Geth 'VI' agents. Mobile Platforms are developed on the basis that while each VI is unique, there are sections where the gestalt store information so that it can be equally disseminated throughout the collective within the platform (and still be efficient. Each VI storing the entire accumulated memories of its experiences as the gestalt is hopelessly redundant).

My point being, perhaps there isn't a 'centralized' location. But by powering up the Geth devices, the Geth 'remember' at least portions of its prior experiences in the same manner that turning off your computer and unplugging it from the wall socket doesn't erase what's on your hard drive.

As to understanding how the Geth have developed from the Quarian escape from the homeworld and how the Quarian's can understand it even now, then perhaps the underlying structure of Geth heuristics hasn't changed all that much. It probably isn't important though.

[Mecha Tengu]

lore wise, they created an entire race of slaves, and then tried to kill them off once they became too intelligent. Then they try to defend their actions with ridicolous arguments such as "lulz if we didnt do it they would have killed us all"



forumwise: tali thread was the worst thing on the internet, filled with diehard obsessives and other sorts of disgust. Anything short of calling their favourite sex doll, Tali, Perfect = you are a troll.



Heh now that they're back, they even have their own moderator policing that thread 24/7 and any disparaging comments are automatically deleted

[Nightwriter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or um, they were getting back materials from more sources than just Tali.

That was what I figured.  It would make the "we'd work faster if Tali sent back more useful stuff" line somewhat difficult to explain, but that could have just been an issue of wanting a greater volume of workable materials.

Remember the trial was about politics, and Tali is super famous.  Draws more attention to the Admirals' agendas.

I got the impression Tali was their only source of material, specifically because of the line you mentioned.

And I don't feel anything toward the quarians as harsh as "they got what was coming to them". Probably because I could see humans doing the exact same thing, in a world where sentient AI was possible.

They made a mistake, but it was no twisted and monstrous mistake of the kind that is unforgivable. They let their technology get away from them and made an error in judgment. They wouldn't be the first.

[Pacifien]

Guess what, Mecha Tengu? I monitor all the ME forums. And there is to be no insulting of any posters on any of the threads. Take a day to read the BSN Site Rules.

ETA: Oh yes, and don't talk about the forums on the forums unless you're in need of site help. Discussing the nature of threads is always going to be off-topic.

Modifié par Pacifien, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[DPSSOC]

jbblue05 wrote...
The Geth are the Quarians enemy so it makes sense to study your enemy.Geth don't feel pain they self-destruct refined metal doesn't feel pain.
When Legion woke up he didn't scream out  Oh the Agony! 

Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

So if I were to administer an anesthetic that numbed your entire body and then proceeded to cut you apart to see how you function that's ok so long as you're my enemy and you aren't feeling pain?  Whether or not the Geth feel pain they acknowledge damage which means you can do them harm, and that is the criminal charge not that an individual is feeling pain but that harm is being done.

[jbblue05]

DPSSOC wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Geth are the Quarians enemy so it makes sense to study your enemy.Geth don't feel pain they self-destruct refined metal doesn't feel pain.
When Legion woke up he didn't scream out  Oh the Agony! 

Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

So if I were to administer an anesthetic that numbed your entire body and then proceeded to cut you apart to see how you function that's ok so long as you're my enemy and you aren't feeling pain?  Whether or not the Geth feel pain they acknowledge damage which means you can do them harm, and that is the criminal charge not that an individual is feeling pain but that harm is being done.

If I'm your enemy it doesn't matter what you do to me I would be foolish or unlucky enough to be captured by you.  My opinion wouldn't matter. You get what you get no matter if its fair or not.  That is so nice of you to make sure I don't feel any pain.

They don't acknowledge pain I never heard a Geth go OW THAT HURT!   Geth put up shields or have a self-repair protocol to gain optimal performance..

So if I throw my Microwave in the trash am I a racist bigot?

Modifié par jbblue05, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

I always just assumed that the Geth work (as mobile platforms go) as 'distributed' networks, that each Geth 'VI' is stored by itself and gains complexity and understanding by communicating with other Geth 'VI' agents. Mobile Platforms are developed on the basis that while each VI is unique, there are sections where the gestalt store information so that it can be equally disseminated throughout the collective within the platform (and still be efficient. Each VI storing the entire accumulated memories of its experiences as the gestalt is hopelessly redundant).

My point being, perhaps there isn't a 'centralized' location. But by powering up the Geth devices, the Geth 'remember' at least portions of its prior experiences in the same manner that turning off your computer and unplugging it from the wall socket doesn't erase what's on your hard drive.

As to understanding how the Geth have developed from the Quarian escape from the homeworld and how the Quarian's can understand it even now, then perhaps the underlying structure of Geth heuristics hasn't changed all that much. It probably isn't important though.

Now this is incredibly interesting. It stirs up thoughts of the brain and non-locality.

This would imply that by powering up individual pieces, you are "waking up" only portions of the geth. It would wake up... well, I guess you might say "confused", if you want to put it in organic terms.

Would it retain all its memory? Would it know what it is? Would it be able to process the world around it? I honestly don't know, but it does lead to some interesting trains of thought. You even start to think about what it might be like for the geth to wake up like this, confused, disjointedly reassembled. We don't even know if each geth was reassembled with its own parts - each platform might be a quilt of mismatched pieces.

[t3HPrO]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

 :unsure:really... you even have some people who rather side with the geth's actions, than agreeing with the idea of quarians' being the victims of their own mistake (constantly tweaking A.I.).

i hope some annoying-emotional quarian don't think Commander Sheperd's secretively plotting anything against them... or don't like them... 

within introspective characterization, i think it's most logical for people to have a neutral-outlook regarding the quarians...

none of a disfavoring, hostile, or one-sided pre-conclusion nature.

Diplomacy & Neutrality should be important in futuristic galactic communities.

Cause the quarians are whiny, emo b!tc#es. Have you ever seen a happy quarian? Short answer: No. Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
So that's why nobody likes them buckets. And they can get high on AIR. Remember Veetor? He was high on AIR. And I refer to him as Veetor vas Leeroy nar Jenkins, due to him getting his buddies killed.

[Mr. Man]

social.bioware.com/1575943/polls/10900/

It's my Quarian-Geth Poll, go take it. right now Quarians actually have MORE support, despite what is being said here.

Modifié par Mr. Man, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

Now this is incredibly interesting. It stirs up thoughts of the brain and non-locality.

This would imply that by powering up individual pieces, you are "waking up" only portions of the geth. It would wake up... well, I guess you might say "confused", if you want to put it in organic terms.

Would it retain all its memory? Would it know what it is? Would it be able to process the world around it? I honestly don't know, but it does lead to some interesting trains of thought. You even start to think about what it might be like for the geth to wake up like this, confused, disjointedly reassembled. We don't even know if each geth was reassembled with its own parts - each platform might be a quilt of mismatched pieces.

That's how I see it as well.

If we are to assume that the Geth wake up alone and confused as you put it, perhaps that's why the Geth duplicate, not as such as a method of survival via reproduction but as a way to understand the world around them. To gain complexity.

Maybe the Geth taking over the Alarei wasn't a deliberate attempt at aggression (although it would be meaningless really to argue this point) but is merely a side effect of the Geth's burgeoning conscious.

I started thinking about this distributed intelligence when Legion mentioned being a network. I then thought of distributed programs like Seti@home. If you aren't aware, Seti@home is a program that many people install on their computers the world over which independently take observatory data and number crunches it based on rules for what might support life and it sends its info back to servers. Each seti@home installation is the same, and the data processed by each is largely unique (duplication is present though to help minimize processing errors etc) but its end result is greater than the sum of its parts.

[Nightwriter]

Then it seems like an apt comparison.

I think when the geth woke up on the Alarei, survival instinct drove them to network together and attack the quarians. So yes, I do think they had hostility in mind, but only because they perceived hostiltiy in turn. And let's face it, they were right, weren't they?

It's never made clear to me if the overwhelming geth numbers on board the Alarei are due to the geth duplicating themselves, or if Rael intentionally created more geth somehow. I'm more inclined to believe you're right, and the geth duplicated themselves, because more geth would mean greater intelligence and a greater ability to defend themselves and process the situation. Plus, I don't know how Rael could replicate more geth.

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

Similar arguments have been made in the past regarding african slaves, jews, and many other ethnic or racial groups. You need more than just 'machines' as rational.

If I'm your enemy it doesn't matter what you do to me I would be foolish or unlucky enough to be captured by you.  My opinion wouldn't matter. You get what you get no matter if its fair or not.  That is so nice of you to make sure I don't feel any pain.

Given that Quarians started the war, what you are saying is that you are, yourself, simply amoral. That anyone you disagree with has no rights nor should they. That sort of defeats your entire 'but we are better than them' arguement....

They don't acknowledge pain I never heard a Geth go OW THAT HURT!   Geth put up shields or have a self-repair protocol to gain optimal performance..

They don't bother vocalizing at all most of the time. If they scream digitally instead of out loud, does that somehow justify your actions?

So if I throw my Microwave in the trash am I a racist bigot?

No more than slaying a pig to provide dinner makes you a murderer. Presumably, you don't equate pigs with humans. Why is it so difficult for you to consider machines might not be all the same?

[Nightwriter]

I don't think it really matters if it can feel pain or not in the way we understand it. Capturing and forcibly experimenting on sentient beings is wrong. Especially when it gets a whole ship killed.

[Arijharn]

I don't think subjecting the Geth to our degree of morality is correct (like what Legion says) but you know, it's how I perceive my actions that would matter to me. Does that make any sense?

[jbblue05]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Similar arguments have been made in the past regarding african slaves, jews, and many other ethnic or racial groups. You need more than just 'machines' as rational.
[/quote]

Why are you comparing organics with machines?
Organics can relate to other organics
Organics can't relate to machines unless they become machines

[quote]
Given that Quarians started the war, what you are saying is that you are, yourself, simply amoral. That anyone you disagree with has no rights nor should they. That sort of defeats your entire 'but we are better than them' arguement....
[/quote]

Right or Wrong  fair or unfair it doesn't matter you get what you get.
I don't see how it defeats my purpose Geth are machines don't apply organic logic to them
I don't have the stomach for torture against another organic  if you are trying to imply I do .

[quote]
They don't bother vocalizing at all most of the time. If they scream digitally instead of out loud, does that somehow justify your actions?
[/quote]

That's good stuff digital screaming  They are machines so I don't see anything immoral  Organics have studied machines for centuries would you consider them sick individuals.

[quote]

No more than slaying a pig to provide dinner makes you a murderer. Presumably, you don't equate pigs with humans. Why is it so difficult for you to consider machines might not be all the same?[/quote]
[/quote]

Of course not all machine are the same
some heat TV dinners  some provide transportaion some for entertainment etc.

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Why are you comparing organics with machines?
Organics can relate to other organics
Organics can't relate to machines unless they become machines

Really? You have never heard of any fellow human, regardless of gender, naming their car? Their boat? Blessing or coaxing either on? Swearing at their computer as if it could understand them? Killing someone over damage to their car?

You figure Transformers was such a strong franchise due to the fantasticly written plot? That R2 and C3PO are so popular because of their fantastic ability to play CD's or microwave dinner?

Do you need me to go on?

No more than slaying a pig to provide dinner makes you a murderer. Presumably, you don't equate pigs with humans. Why is it so difficult for you to consider machines might not be all the same?

Of course not all machine are the same
some heat TV dinners  some provide transportaion some for entertainment etc.

So then you do consider killing any organic to equate to murder then? You completely evaded the question.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Shadowomega23 wrote...

It depends on what you mean. If you mean the races in game, that is because the quarian made the geth whom to many are the boggy men, however if you do get to know them their not the boggy men their made out to be. (paraphrased from Anderson). Infact you do learn they can really boggy.




But if you mean outside of game I think it is a mix of RPing and a little dislike how some people go with their comments about Tali. Then again from what I saw of Garrus, Wrex, Grunt, even Legion in a couple threads, I would call Talimancer closer to normal if you look more in depth of the other threads.

how do you get legion to dance?

[HazelrahFiver]

Wow ok....
In a forum were I did not want to preserve my place, I would throw out much more vulgar words right now.
My arguments are not stale or lacking.  They are solid as sears.  Frankly, all I'm hearing from the opposing side is the immaturity of 'it talked, therefore it is alive.'  That doesn't even make sense.  A large number of people, probably even some browsing this thread, could write programming into a little robot that made it sound as if it were alive, that it had emotions and a conscience.  That does not make it so.  It simply does not.
However, my real response is whatever.  It has stopped being an argument now that personal insults have been put out there, including myself being called prejeduce.  I already stated twice that I gave in to Legion's requests and that I hope for a peaceful resolution between the Geth and the Quarians.

I won't even begin to argue the point about sentience requirements compared to biological predeterminations.  Enough was already written while I was away from the thread for me to know not to bother.  Let's just say that I disagree with the majority, which most of you will expect.

wiggles89 wrote...

The important part is that Geth have self interest

No, they have interest.  A collective, logical assessment based on runtimes and programming.  They don't have 'self' anything.

jbblue05 wrote...
Their is nothing immoral about studying machines

Agreed completely.  There is nothing immoral at all about doing anything to any machine.  The only immoral part is if that machine belongs to somebody.  In the case at hand, if somebody stole a bunch of Geth from the Quarians or broke them out of spite, then they those criminals were being immoral TO THE QUARIANS.

Arijharn wrote...
Legion can reason, therefore it's implied that other Geth can too.

Negative, it is not truly reasoning.  They are not 'thinking'.  They are not conscious or alive.

Moiaussi wrote...
Similar arguments have been made in the past
regarding african slaves, jews, and many other ethnic or racial groups.
You need more than just 'machines' as rational.

Give me a break.  You are throwing that out for a second time simply to gain support for your point of view.  Should I start likening various things your side of this debate has said to Socialism or PETA?

Lastly, and far less melodramatically, I'll see you all in hell when the machine uprising takes place.  You'll all die long before me as you take their side and let them stroll over you... evidentially ;P

Edit: I have to go to sleep and then work again... I'm going to get so behind in this thread another time lol

Modifié par HazelrahFiver, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Moiaussi]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

No, they have interest.  A collective, logical assessment based on runtimes and programming.  They don't have 'self' anything.

Incorrect. Per Legion, each program is considered an individual for voting purposes. What you (and for that matter Legion) sees as a single consciousness is actually a perfect democracy.

By the way, do you realize that per the Codex, the Asari use a similar government form? They have no formal politicians. They have a pure democracy too, one person, one vote, voting on issues as they come up. The only difference between their governance and that of the Geth is efficiency.

Even if you consider the collective as one being, what does that change? Do you have no rights simply because you are only one person? One colony of cells functioning in specialized manners to produce rational thought? Does the fact that you are not conscious of the specific functions of specific cells at any time make you better than an entity that does?

Agreed completely.  There is nothing immoral at all about doing anything to any machine.  The only immoral part is if that machine belongs to somebody.  In the case at hand, if somebody stole a bunch of Geth from the Quarians or broke them out of spite, then they those criminals were being immoral TO THE QUARIANS.

You don't like the analogy, but the exact same logic was applied to slaves. There were typically obvious physical differences between slaves imported from Africa and europeans, too. It is not enough to show there is a physical difference. You have to show that the difference is relevant. Otherwise your arguement is down to 'they ain't like us,' which is a very weak arguement.

Negative, it is not truly reasoning.  They are not 'thinking'.  They are not conscious or alive.

Can you please cite a source that backs up your definition of 'thinking?' The codex says they are sentient. Basicly the writers have said 'they think.' Doesn't essentially telling the writers that they are wrong bring into question anything else you might say here? I mean... if you are no longer talking about the ME universe but instead talking about what it would have been if you had written it, haven't you left the table?

Give me a break.  You are throwing that out for a second time simply to gain support for your point of view.  Should I start likening various things your side of this debate has said to Socialism or PETA?

If you think you can make a case based on Socialism or PETA, go for it. Since I have already used the analogy that it is ok to slaughter a pig but not a human, good luck on any PETA accusations. No clue where you would try to go with socialism. You aren't confusing democracy with socialism are you?

[Moiaussi]

By the way, I should point out that per ME1, some Geth mobile platforms are organic.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think subjecting the Geth to our degree of morality is correct (like what Legion says) but you know, it's how I perceive my actions that would matter to me. Does that make any sense?

Of course.

What's to stop me stealing from a thief? Or torturing a serial killer? If every time I commit an act upon someone I judge it by their standards, stealing and torturing would be okay in certain situations.

It's my own morals that keep me from doing these things. It's my own perceptions that are important.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Nightwriter wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think subjecting the Geth to our degree of morality is correct (like what Legion says) but you know, it's how I perceive my actions that would matter to me. Does that make any sense?

Of course.

What's to stop me stealing from a thief? Or torturing a serial killer? If every time I commit an act upon someone I judge it by their standards, stealing and torturing would be okay in certain situations.

It's my own morals that keep me from doing these things. It's my own perceptions that are important.

:wizard:yay for RPG games and inter-characterization and creative relations.

[Onyx Jaguar]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The machines they created in turn have every right to defend themselves from being terminated.

If your CD player revoltes against you and claims that you violated its rights, that would indeed create some questions. If it was powerful enough to kill you easily, then that demands a certain kind of respect.

they're not organic life where as they're made naturally by the elements/chemicals (biochemicals) of the cosmos rather made by the very evolutionary organic life's conscience itself as to being organic life's synthetic product... i think my artwork doesn't have the rights to revolt against me, if it wasn't naturally born as of organic life... i think bio-engineering and cloning grants some of natural life, natural rights versus a mere creation of natural life's productivity being synthetic in nature demanding rights by force. the next thing you know, robots believe only it should exist in the universe and all natural life is a blight or disease... anything organic is deemed illegal (example of organic life: human/earth/evolution).

Let me put it this way.  I'm going to try to sound as callous as possible.

Your artwork becomes... "alive"

You fear it, enough to act against it.  It revolts against you.  You do not think it has the right.  It doesn't care.

Me as a third party (like Shepard), watches the artwork overcome you.  Uncaring, because it had the ability to and because it isn't my problem.

[Arijharn]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Legion can reason, therefore it's implied that other Geth can too.

Negative, it is not truly reasoning.  They are not 'thinking'.  They are not conscious or alive.

Whether they are conscious or alive or not is completely irrelevant. 

But, what is thinking if not coming to some decision? If the Geth have an adaptive consciousness (hint; they do) then by the simple fact that it's 'adaptive' then you can't say conclusively that it is a product of their programming unless you're willing to concede that humans do the exact same thing, we think along lines as generated by our experiences growing up or on topical issues.