121 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

As far as I can tell, no one has answered the problem that the Wardens actually know where the Old Gods are sleeping. Therefore, Flemeth can't be an old god, but must be something else entirely, as suggested at the end of Witch Hunt.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Flemeth is Fen'Harel, the only one of the old ones who was able to walk freely between the Old Gods/Forgotten Gods and the Elven Pantheon, the only one among them all that isn't not imprisoned or killed (possibly sans Urthermiel post-Origins).

[thedarke]

I don't think the Wardens do know exactly where the Old Gods are. It takes centuries of the DS constantly digging to find the Old Gods. Just because they can hear the Calling, doesn't mean they know where they all are like some kind of Gray Warden GPS. If they knew where the Old Gods were exactly, it would be the simple () matter of pouring all the Gray Wardens into the Deep Roads to target each of the Old Gods before they were corrupted and stop the Blights. Pretty sure they could get all the surface armies to support them in that endeavour as well. So that says to me they are aware of the Old Gods via the Calling, but not where they are.



I suspect that the further from an Old God the more distant the Calling as well, given that proximity to the Archdemon triggered more vivid visions in Origins. I also think the DA team have, can and will take liberties with their canon to fit the story they want to tell.



Also if the Elven pantheon is the more correct, and Flemeth isn't one of the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones (assuming that they are analogous) then Fen'Harel is still a good option (one of the "good" gods accepted by the OG/FOs). Of course you could be right Vandicus, but I just have the feeling from the depth and breadth of the lore, that even if they didn't know exactly what Flemeth was, they had a pretty good idea by the time they put DA:O to release, and that they've put some clues there, and the ones that sit out as jaring pieces of lore are always the bits around the Gods, the origin of the Blight, and what happened to Elvhenan.

[AlexXIV]

thedarke wrote...

I don't think the Wardens do know exactly where the Old Gods are. It takes centuries of the DS constantly digging to find the Old Gods. Just because they can hear the Calling, doesn't mean they know where they all are like some kind of Gray Warden GPS. If they knew where the Old Gods were exactly, it would be the simple () matter of pouring all the Gray Wardens into the Deep Roads to target each of the Old Gods before they were corrupted and stop the Blights. Pretty sure they could get all the surface armies to support them in that endeavour as well. So that says to me they are aware of the Old Gods via the Calling, but not where they are.

I suspect that the further from an Old God the more distant the Calling as well, given that proximity to the Archdemon triggered more vivid visions in Origins. I also think the DA team have, can and will take liberties with their canon to fit the story they want to tell.

Also if the Elven pantheon is the more correct, and Flemeth isn't one of the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones (assuming that they are analogous) then Fen'Harel is still a good option (one of the "good" gods accepted by the OG/FOs). Of course you could be right Vandicus, but I just have the feeling from the depth and breadth of the lore, that even if they didn't know exactly what Flemeth was, they had a pretty good idea by the time they put DA:O to release, and that they've put some clues there, and the ones that sit out as jaring pieces of lore are always the bits around the Gods, the origin of the Blight, and what happened to Elvhenan.

Latest news and the point where I stopped theorizing is that we know nothing. Old gods, Creators, Maker, it could all be just hokey religions that have about as much base as our rl religions. Means it is all written by mortals with no proof or true divinity. So basically having opinions about DA religions is all about faith and belief and not even the slightest hint of proof. So if a religion cannot be proven to be right I have to wonder if it is worth worship. Since, well ... you don't gain anything really, at least nothing you could count.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[Saraphial]

Besides the fact that the wardens know where the old gods are sleeping (although I find Ineffable Igor's theory quite intriguing), the biggest hole in this theory is that Morrigan openly states that the plan for her to have the OGB came directly from Flemeth herself and was the main reason she sent Morrigan with you. I doubt she'd plot for Morrigan to have the child that would be her undoing.



If you erase that small snippet from the theory and add Ineffable Igor's thoughts about how Flemeth was possessed by the spirit of a dreaming old god, I think it would actually check out and not to mention, make for excellent drama.



I apologize if any of this was already mentioned, I was too lazy to take the time and read the rest of the thread posts.

[ProfessionalPirate]

jollyorigins wrote...

does anyone else think flemeth might be andraste returned? sounds like a crazy theory i know but something seems kind off right about it, i mean, she knows magic from ages long ago and according to tevinter chantry andraste was a powerful mage to them, connection maybe?

 It's not a bad theory but I have a hard time reconciling the two distinct personalities together. I really just can't envision andraste possesing her daughters to stay alive or telling Morrigan to have the OGB.  It doesn't fit with Andraste's words that magic should serve man and not rule over him. To me it sounds as if Andraste really abhores blood magic, even if she herself was a mage

[ProfessionalPirate]

jollyorigins wrote...

ProfessionalPirate wrote...

jollyorigins wrote...

does anyone else think flemeth might be andraste returned? sounds like a crazy theory i know but something seems kind off right about it, i mean, she knows magic from ages long ago and according to tevinter chantry andraste was a powerful mage to them, connection maybe?

 It's not a bad theory but I have a hard time reconciling the two distinct personalities together. I really just can't envision andraste possesing her daughters to stay alive or telling Morrigan to have the OGB.  It doesn't fit with Andraste's words that magic should serve man and not rule over him. To me it sounds as if Andraste really abhores blood magic, even if she herself was a mage

true enough, either way whatever flemeth turns out to be it will be a big surprise for me

Me  too. I lost sleep last night cause I read this topic before bed and couldn't stop trying to figure out exactly what flemeth is. by the time DA2 comes out I will be a sobbing crazy wreck

[Taura-Tierno]

Vandicus wrote...

As far as I can tell, no one has answered the problem that the Wardens actually know where the Old Gods are sleeping. Therefore, Flemeth can't be an old god, but must be something else entirely, as suggested at the end of Witch Hunt.

How, exactly do they know? What's the proof that really do know, or that what they think they know really is the truth? I mean, there are plenty of people who think they "know" exactly how things are, like the Chantry with the Maker and the creation of darkspawn, etc ... but that doesn't make it true.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

[quote]Aurawolf wrote...

I think the other Grey Warden mentions that thier stock of the archdemon blood was stolen from the vault in denerim and without they cannot create more Wardens, just doing another play through is the only reason I remember that./quo]


Yes, I think this is correct, and I think it's Riordan who gives this explanation, according to Riordan, Loghain and Howe took it from the vault in Denerim.  When you kill Howe I think Riordan gets it back.  You have to have the arch demon blood to make the mystery player if you choose to do so a Grey Warden.

I'm not 100% positive on this but I do remember this conversation in the game.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 octobre 2010 - 06:56 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Brockololly wrote...

Iberius wrote...
Well, if nothing else I hope we get to hear a little bit more of Flemeth's history, but as you say it will probably just lead to more questions. At the same time I like Flemeth in part because we don't know everything about her. If we did........she just wouldn't be Flemeth.

Oh sure, thats part of why I like Morrigan too, its the mystery. But there is a difference between giving ambiguous vague answers that can fuel speculation and be fun versus the Witch Hunt route of not giving any answers at all while only providing more vague questions.

Iberius wrote...
More than anything I just want something big to happen to sort of break the ice on Morrigan/Flemeth story. Right now it seems like all we have to go on is hints about hints of their story.

Definitely, and I'm hoping/thinking thats what we'll get by the time DA2 is over, what with the world on the brink of war and the Chantry crumbling. Even if Flemeth doesn't provide answers directly or verbally, whatever it is she's up to, we hopefully get better insight into her at least through her actions.

It just seems like the whole Flemeth/Morrigan story is kind of at a simmer, with DA2 it maybe gets to a nice boil and then hopefully come DA3 it boils over into World War Thedas with Flemeth vs. Morrigan with the Warden and Old God Baby and maybe Hawke in there too.

I'd preorder that game right this second.

Kajros wrote...
Well in Dragon Age Origins once you begin  to talk more to Morrigan and get the Black Grimoire, things get said.
Morrigan states that in old stories Flemeth was once human but sided  herself with a Demon and became an abomination. Either the demon took  control, Flemeth took control, or the coexist. Now, what I believe is  Flemeth found an Old God and instead of the Old God awakening she took  control of it and uses it's powers as her own. Just a theory.

Well, if we believe Morrigan's telling of the legend of Flemeth, Flemeth actually called on spirits first, then much later she found a demon. But then in Witch Hunt we've got Morrigan saying Flemeth isn't an abomination or even human. I guess that begs the question- has Flemeth ever been human or is she something completely beyond our comprehension.....thats it! Flemeth isn't an Old God- Flemeth is one of the Great Old Ones!

Flemeth is Cthulhu!

Leliana's version of the legend on Flemeth differs slighty from Morrigan's tale. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

AlexXIV wrote...

Gerudan wrote...

Antaress wrote...

Gerudan wrote...

Is there someone here, who knows if there was a Blight in which the Archdemon Slayer has survived?

Only Our Warden

So...how would Flemeth know, that the ritual would work? 

That's why the theory that she either did it before or that she is the child of someone who did it before is quite popular. Another explaination could as well be that she is that old and powerful that she just knows because of her insight in magic. I think even those who doubt that Flemeth is an old god or elven god agree that she must be about the most powerful being around the Dragon Age. Another thing I wonder is how she managed to rescue the Warden from the Tower of Ishal even though there was an Archdemon around (Duncan sensed him). In dragon form she couldn't really hide and would at least compromise her existance.

I've always wondered about this myself.  I was disappointed in RTO that we couldn't access that area.  How did she actually do this?  This also brings up another question.  With the arch demon flying all over Ferelden, why didn't the arch demon attack the High Dragon on the Mountain Top?  Where is a male dragon in the story, unless the old gods/dragons are the male dragons.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:05 .

[SirShreK]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote..

I've always wondered about this myself.  I was disappointed in RTO that we couldn't access that area.  How did she actually do this?  This also brings up another question.  With the arch demon flying all over Ferelden, why didn't the arch demon attack the High Dragon on the Mountain Top?  Where is a male dragon in the story, unless the old gods/dragons are the male dragons.

This is mostly ill-studied. The arch-demon left the Deep roads MUCH later. We in fact get to see it inside....

[packardbell]

 I don't think because the first blight lasted quite a long time that it insists that Dumat was the strongest old god and archdemon, it proves that thedas was unprepared for it and during that time saw the grey wardens being founded when they finally cracked the secret of how to defeat the archdemon.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

SirShreK wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote..

I've always wondered about this myself.  I was disappointed in RTO that we couldn't access that area.  How did she actually do this?  This also brings up another question.  With the arch demon flying all over Ferelden, why didn't the arch demon attack the High Dragon on the Mountain Top?  Where is a male dragon in the story, unless the old gods/dragons are the male dragons.

This is mostly ill-studied. The arch-demon left the Deep roads MUCH later. We in fact get to see it inside....

Just because we see the arch demon in the deep roads doesn't mean that it wasn't flying around outside of the deep roads.  The arch demon flies into that cut scene and it also flies out of that cutscene, leaving to go where?  Even Gaxkang makes mention that something is watching the wardens from a high vantage point and the signal came from Ostagar, had to be the arch demon.   The arch demon also sends DS to attack your camp after  three of main quests are completed. Alistair senses the Arch demon and the shrieks nearby before the attack on the party camp.  Just before that attack the arch demon is shown as flying, and it wasn't in the deep roads.

[aaniadyen]

And here I was thinking Flemeth was a post-menopausal harpy that I thoroughly enjoyed killing.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

packardbell wrote...

 I don't think because the first blight lasted quite a long time that it insists that Dumat was the strongest old god and archdemon, it proves that thedas was unprepared for it and during that time saw the grey wardens being founded when they finally cracked the secret of how to defeat the archdemon.

I think the codex on the old gods did say Dumat was the strongest.

[tesaiga]

Hmmm there are many storys and i know for sure Flemeth is a mythical creature we can only gues and wait for the story to develope maybe she is one of the old gods probably Dumat (my opinion) if the old god of silence was dead at the temple we should not recive anything after sacrifice the four objects.I think еven if a Grey Warden kills The Archdemon they dont die, its like purification ritual and they live somewhere.Thats part of my theory as for Flemeth to be the Trickster i dont think she is much the elven type - thats my opinion

[InfiniteAvenger]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

Antaress wrote...

I was reading CODEXs and found something interesting about old gods and there names 

...........................................................
Dumat, the Dragon of Silence and the archdemon of the First Blight

Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and the archdemon of the Second Blight

Toth, the Dragon of Fire and the archdemon of the Third Blight

Andoral, the Dragon of Chains and the archdemon of the Fourth Blight

Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty and the archdemon of the Fifth Blight

Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery

Lusacan, the Dragon of Night
...........................................................

You see Razikale if female name who could be a reference to Raziel the "angel of mystery/God's secret"
So there is possibility that Razikale might be Flemeth itself  and it might be more or equal powerful as Dumat which was strongest one as we know. Dumat was so strong that it took 90 years to stop blight and third of Thedas nation was dead. So if if Flemeth really is Razikale  than we might have huge changes and only wardens or champions wont be enough to stop all this chaos, so this is were Morrigans child comes in. Since he is old God (Urthemiel) he has more chance to stop Flemeth than any one else .....



well what do you think? 

wasnt the reason why it took so long to kill Dumat was because nobody knew of how to become Wardens yet?

Exactly!  There were no wardens originally when they were fighting Dumat.  It was during that fight the first wardens came into existence.

[InfiniteAvenger]

OK. Here is the skinny. After all the conversations and the codexes read. There is one thing that is left unanswered.

"Warden: Why did the Maker not save Andraste?"
"Leliana: I have wondered this myself."

With all the knowledge and power found in Flemeth's Grimeour and this seemingly innocent comment by Leliana, I wonder if we are not witnessing a foreshadow of the truth. If there was no reason to save Andraste's mortal form because she would in fact just transfer herself into another form, say Flemeth being one of her loyal followers nearby. One of 4 loyal followers that survived that day. Only 3 are ever mentioned by name. Interesting that. Why would that be? Only one unnamed loyal follower of Andraste that was there at her death is left drifting in the winds of time and never mentioned again. hmmmm?

I think that the story Morrigan tells us, that Flemeth told her, about her past combined with the Bard Tale Leliana tells gives some nice clues. Also, there is the timeline. There is one codex we find, if we find all of them, in the Ruined Temple that dates back to the time of Andraste. It mentions how her loyalist of servants took up her ashes and fled to the mountains with them. The town of Haven was founded to guard the temple and was cutoff from the progression of the Chantry.

Many of these pieces come together to suggest that Andraste was not as mortal afterall and that she was possessed, likely by a good spirit from the fade, similar to a favorite spirit healer we all know and love. This spirit was the true chosen, not the mortal form called Andraste. But, living voluntarily inside a living person can allow that spirit to thrive and mature and grow into more than it was before becoming more and more powerful. As evidenced by another spirit healer friend we all know as well. (names omitted to avoid spoilers) across, DAO, DAA, and DA2, we have examples foreshadowing what I am saying very loud and clear if we just open our eyes and listen.