204 réponses à ce sujet

[xbeton0L]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

The part they traveled back in time is taking it a bit too far. Some inconsistencies like FTL and EEZO can live, but lets hold it here or it indeed gets too convoluted.

The Reapers could've harvested themselves (no time travel, just use the guys that made 'em; maybe somewhat not like the scheme suggests) and optimized further cycles a whole lot using Mass Relays. The ultimate goal is still the research on dark matter life form.

But it's still really crazy. Revealing something like this in ME3 would break their godlike impression and thus immersion lost. We should really NOT understand what are they doing. Since it's the main point of ME anyway. And if we've got this convoluted scheme brought to us on a plate, the canon would be violated that second.

why is it everytime i see someone with this avatar,
i hear the Illusive Man's voice narrating the words.

Modifié par xbeton0L, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[MisterDyslexo]

xbeton0L wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...

The part they traveled back in time is taking it a bit too far. Some inconsistencies like FTL and EEZO can live, but lets hold it here or it indeed gets too convoluted.

The Reapers could've harvested themselves (no time travel, just use the guys that made 'em; maybe somewhat not like the scheme suggests) and optimized further cycles a whole lot using Mass Relays. The ultimate goal is still the research on dark matter life form.

But it's still really crazy. Revealing something like this in ME3 would break their godlike impression and thus immersion lost. We should really NOT understand what are they doing. Since it's the main point of ME anyway. And if we've got this convoluted scheme brought to us on a plate, the canon would be violated that second.

why is it everytime i see someone with this avatar,
i hear the Illusive Man's voice narrating the words.

Because only the Illusive Man knows the real truth about the Reapers- That they're from the Star Trek Universe:blink:

[xbeton0L]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

xbeton0L wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...

why is it everytime i see someone with this avatar,
i hear the Illusive Man's voice narrating the words.

Because only the Illusive Man knows the real truth about the Reapers-

i have to take what he says seriously. 

Modifié par xbeton0L, 19 septembre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Kriztaen]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

Mash-up between Xelee and Asimov's The Last Question? Why not, sign me up!

And AC said: "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" And there was light--

Modifié par Kriztaen, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Lord_Tirian]

lost lupus wrote...

The Novikov self-consistency principle

...are you arguing for causality in a world with FTL drives!?

[Annihilator27]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

The Novikov self-consistency principle

...are you arguing for causality in a world with FTL drives!?

.........I hope not.

[RideUrLightning]

If they traveled back in time and harvested themselves, wouldn't they be changing the timeline and erasing themselves from time after that?

[krimesh]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

The Novikov self-consistency principle

...are you arguing for causality in a world with FTL drives!?

Causality is fine. But Special and General Relativity are certainly violated by FTL drives. So no self-consistency principle here I'm afraid. Anyway, it's supposed to be science fiction so that shouldn't stop anyone. This theory messes up in other places, as has been noted several times.

[Dem_B]

Dem_B wrote...

Even if you go back  you can not change known to you the future, this contradicts the theory of quantum physics. Events will occur otherwise, but always lead to certain consequences.

And here I propose to travel is not the past, but in another dimension, it is theoretically possible:

lost lupus wrote...

and so techincaly the reapers havent traveled back in time but have traveled to an alterante
universe that is at an earlier stage in time in essense

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

@Dem_B - sorry if I'm being dense, but your explanation of other dimensions doesn't really suggest any means or possibility of travelling through them. Am I missing something?

Here's a decent explanation of transition to another dimension:

Einstein-Cartan theory.

The possibility of confirmation of the birth of new universes inside black holes, a certain type. Where repulsion, on the one hand, prevents the formation of a singularity, but on the other - can accumulate enormous energy density, the quantum fluctuations grow on a massive scale, leading to the emergence of new pairs of virtual particles, followed by - and to expand the new universe.

Read about it here: www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25430/

Ie I want to say that the Reapers, to travel into another dimension, would have to go through a supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy.

Maybe someone will seem too complicated.
Quantum physics is hard to understand. But I read scientific journals and in some ways to understand.

I hope BioWare under the pretext of difficulty understanding the theory, not propose simple explanation, it will be their mistake.

I would like to hear the views of the author about my supplement this theory

Modifié par Dem_B, 20 septembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[krimesh]

^^
We don't know what actually happens at the center of a black hole. It seems likely that general relativity might not hold there. Also there is no such thing as "quantum gravity" at least atm, so QM in a black hole is murky water. That other universe-stuff is basically just guessing, science fiction as it were.

In my opinion science fiction should not go too heavily on the science part. Do not contradict models that are very likely to hold under most circumstances. Make everything else up the way you need it.

I am still not getting how the Reapers actually gain the advantage the theory states they gain by their behavior. That's a much simpler question, and there is no point of discussing the physics of it all, if the basic plot-logic isn't done yet.

EDIT: Obviously I can't and don't want to prevent anyone from discussing the "science" part. I'll just stay out of it.

Modifié par krimesh, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[xbeton0L]

krimesh wrote...

^^
We don't know what actually happens at the center of a black hole. It seems likely that general relativity might not hold there. That other universe-stuff is basically just guessing, science fiction as it were.

In my opinion science fiction should not go too heavily on the science part. Do not contradict models that are very likely to hold under most circumstances. Make everything else up the way you need it.

I am still not getting how the Reapers actually gain the advantage the theory states they gain by their behavior. That's a much simpler question, and there is no point of discussing the physics of it all, if the basic plot-logic isn't done yet.

EDIT: Obviously I can't and don't want to prevent anyone from discussing the "science" part. I'll just stay out of it.

i read this kind of article a long ways back, written by some astronomy/physics guru. it dealt with defining the singularity, defining the "event horizon", time dilation (slows as material approaches center), as well as the obvious spacetime distortion and reverse-time traveling particles. i think long after matter has been shredded by the singularity event horizon, subatomic particles are somehow stored in a quantum state within the singularity, which defines why singularities don't have "measurable" volume and also could help explain the buildup of energy in the big bang. only in reverse.

[krimesh]

^^
A few months back some guy published a r * 100 pages proof of P != NP; guess what, it's probably BS. (r is a real number I don't remember, and P and NP are NOT numbers. They are sets of algorithms. Ask a computer science major.)
My point is that an article doesn't necessarily mean that much, especially if it is not the actual publication. Physics works like this: observe, make a model, calculate consequences, observe, see where the model fails, make a better one and so on. Our current model doesn't even account for the fact that we live in an expanding universe. And we haven't ever been even close to Black Hole. So for now all those theories have very little to hold on. Their content is certainly way beyond a discussion on a science fiction forum.

Modifié par krimesh, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:43 .

[Dem_B]

xbeton0L wrote...
it dealt with defining the singularity, defining the "event horizon", time dilation (slows as material approaches center), as well as the obvious spacetime distortion and reverse-time traveling particles.

Yes, you understand the essence of about the "event horizon". I wonder how the author came up with the theory of it, whether he had read something like that. I read a lot of scientific - popular journals, and I see that his theory with my additions logical in theory and is acceptable for game.

[Dem_B]

krimesh wrote...
Our current model doesn't even account for the fact that we live in an expanding universe. And we haven't ever been even close to Black Hole. So for now all those theories have very little to hold on.

Links that I publish you can read and think about what is written there, I did not just publish them here, but i want confirm my words, it are correct in theory articles.
 
Alternative measurement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Peace in the hole: the universe within:
www.universetoday.com/62173/is-our-universe-inside-another-larger-universe/
newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/13995.html

This article assumes the existence of such a scheme: a black hole on one side of the wormhole, white - on the other. As he has shown theoretically, in general, any black hole can participate in such a structure, and then each of them is enclosed within the universe, born with it.

Just think about it this, it is same concept of Mass Relay only on a larger scale.


The difficulty or unwillingness to read and understand the thought does not mean that this theory can not exist.
The author must participate in the discussion and see my add-on.

Modifié par Dem_B, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Homebound]

Or MAYBE, the Reapers are harvesting all sentient life that they deem "desirable" since a "Reaper" is the only sentient thing that can remain alive once the universe superheats so says the proto-reaper scientists.

[Dem_B]

Just_mike wrote...

Or MAYBE, the Reapers are harvesting all sentient life that they deem "desirable" since a "Reaper" is the only sentient thing that can remain alive once the universe superheats so says the proto-reaper scientists.

Yes, it is very logical.
I'm afraid we solve the mystery of Mass Effect 3 or vice versa we show BioWare the right path.

[krimesh]

^^

Now that makes more sense. Still I don't think that's what will turn up in ME3.

[krimesh]

Dem_B wrote...
Yes, it is very logical.
I'm afraid we solve the mystery of Mass Effect 3 or vice versa we show BioWare the right path.

I doubt that we will solve the mystery, and I am very certain that Bioware will do a lot better than anyone on this forum.

[Dem_B]

krimesh wrote...
I doubt that we will solve the mystery, and I am very certain that Bioware will do a lot better than anyone on this forum.

Well for me personally, the main storyline of ME2 not was better then ME1 and was very predictable. So I will not be so sure as you that BioWare will come up with better. I'm not saying that this theory is ideal, but based on it BioWare can do true masterpiece.

Modifié par Dem_B, 20 septembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[krimesh]

^^

I beg to differ, but it all boils down to different people having different taste.

[Shockwave81]

Time travel will suck - period. There has been NO foreshadowing about time travel throughout the series, so I honestly feel that if it's introduced 'all of a sudden' in ME3 it will just be a cheap cop-out to explain what's been going on since the dawn of Reaper time, taking up valuable time (not to mention disc space), just to establish it as a worthy plot device.



Most stories have been done in one way or another, so I don't doubt there'll be something clichéd in ME3's big moment, but it should fit with what we know thus far.



I don't care how 'convoluted' the explanation or elaboration is - time travel is time travel no matter how you paint it.



Probably getting worked up over nothing...but yeah.

[Dem_B]

Shockwave81 wrote...
Time travel will suck - period. There has been NO foreshadowing about time travel throughout the series, so I honestly feel that if it's introduced 'all of a sudden' in ME3 it will just be a cheap cop-out to explain what's been going on since the dawn of Reaper time, taking up valuable time (not to mention disc space), just to establish it as a worthy plot device.  

Reapers theory must be not explicit, should not be simple, I already talked about this. Time travel will not change anything. Travel in another dimension can. It is theoretically more likely.

Reapers theory the most important in Mass Effect, for that I'm playing this game.
Taking up valuable time? You need more time to shoot? You only this interesting? More weapons and armor in ME3 huh?

Do you think, the explanation theory of Reapers should will be simple? As chewing gum for the masses. This will be a shame!
Explanation should completely overturn our understanding, like this theory!

Slidell505, please, read all my posts,  I give most support your theory, but also added theoretically possible variants.

Modifié par Dem_B, 20 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[krimesh]

As far as I am concerned, ME and ME2 already present a theory as to why the Reapers do what they do, and it is beautiful. I am not saying that there won't be a big revelation in ME3, but it is unlikely that this revelation will violate what is already in the games as dramatically as the theory posted in this thread does.

[tenshi_no_hone]

A more complicated explanation does not necessarily mean a better one. For example, the time travel or alternate dimensions theories raise a lot of difficult questions, whereas the issues with simply galaxy travelling are easier to deal with



The more complex the resolution the less satisfying it will be beyond a certain point (just look at Lost or to a point, BSG) Complex narratives are hard to resolve - in ME's case most of the effort will go into telling a large number of very different endings rather than detailed Reaper exposition.



If you think about the big reveals from ME1 and 2 you get a sense of what they're building up to. ME - sentient machines kill all life --> twist is Saren's ship is one. ME2 - Reapers using Collectors to harvest humans --> twists are Collectors=Protheans and organic life is used to make Reapers (or at least can be)



Any grand reveal that takes more than 10 minutes of explanation to convey properly to most gamers seems unlikely. We can hope though!

[Kappa Neko]

I like the irony of this theory and I don't really mind throwing in time travel, despite the paradox. But the "big twist" that the reapers are not the bad guys after all but are really trying to save the universe is LAME! It's almost as lame as that the real enemy is an even meaner race.

I'd rather have the reapers simply being these creepy machines that harvest organic life because it's the laziest way to keep themselves alive and because they enjoy it. It might be a smarter move to focus on a great solution to the reaper problem, which is not an easy thing to do. The big plot twist being this weapon in the face of imminent obliteration.

Also, if the reapers turn out to be the saviors of the universe, that revelation should be made at the very end of the game when Shep has found a way to destroy the reapers and has made use of it already. THAT would be awesome! The reapers are all destroyed before whoever's just found out the truth rushes in to stop Shep, dooming every being in the universe after all. classic tragedy. Would love it! But I doubt BW will end ME3 this way.

So the only alternative would be to either have organic life and the reapers join forces to save the universe (how is that helpful?), or to have smart Shep and his squad find a way to stop this tragedy (very unrealistic). Either by sacrificing the reapers in some way (irony) or by other means. That leaves the reapers without purpose. Would that make them docile or even more hostile? So either happy family or a viscous battle after all. I don't like it.