40 réponses à ce sujet

[The Potty 1]

OK you all appear to be talking about this strategy as if wish wasn't a fundamental part of it? If you cast spell trap, then PI, and the image drops 4 finger of deaths into your spell trap, you recover 3 level 8 spells at a cost of 1 level 9 spell? This is a poor deal unless you use the SotM, which means you can do this once without resting?

http://www.sorcerers...dlessSpells.htm

The infinite spells exploit requires you to load 3 PI's in a chain contingency, then cast another PI, at which point the first 3 also spawn, and your char becomes immobile. These images then all cast wish until one of them gets lucky and gets the rest option. You can combine this with the above spell trap / finger of death strategy in case no-one gets the rest option, but either way you're down two level 9 spells, or 4 level 8 spells and one level 9.
EDIT Another critical point is that wish is working exactly as the developers intended[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Modifié par The Potty 1, 17 septembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

An alternative to the loading of 3x PIs is to simply place the wish scroll in the instant spell slot, then have all PIs and simulacrums cast wish buffed with wisdom and intelligence potions...and wish back all spells. I did this with my c/m.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

You don't need int for Wish.

Oh and you don't need Wish for the Infinite Spell loop. There are single-target offensive spells at level 9, you know...

[The Potty 1]

OK I stand corrected then. Also I was referring to PI & FoD as level 8 spells, but they are actually level 7.



This morning I created a new sorcerer with 18 Wisdom, and shadowkept him to 4M XP. I then tried to do this. I struggled to choose a single target offensive at level 9, the choices appeared to be Big Hand, Energy drain, Imprisonment, PW-Kill, or Spellstrike. Spellstrike should remove spell trap, so that's out. For me Imprisonment is also out because I love XP and loot, PW-Kill is out because 60HP seems puny, and Big hand allows saves, so I chose Energy drain.



I cast my chain contingency, and then put up a range of protections, at least one from each spell level, both to simulate a real-life fight, and to use up some spells for reloading. Finally I cast spell trap and triggered the images.



Firstly the G3 fixpack (or SCS2) only allow me one illegal image from the chain, giving me two.



I then tried to reload my spells. Being daft, I'd cast spell turning, so one of my images got to save against FoD. That went well, so I tried the big stuff, Energy drain, and got level drained. Sigh. Then either I lost count or spell trap ran out, because the next FoD killed me.



The images also cast wish a couple of times, and I got lots of not terribly helpful options. Well breach on all enemies in the area would be great in Ascension, but here it made Minsc and Jaheira hostile, so use with care. All in all, I'd rather drink turnip beer than employ this strategy.

[amanasleep]

Demivrgvs wrote...

Larkusix wrote...
I know of no mod, that removed the Projected Image's own spell book and
let's it use its caster's spellbook instead although that would be the
only consistent solution, if you think a solution is needed.

That's because the game engine doesn't allow to do that (else I would have done it), it's a game code limitation.

Demi, is it possible to get around this limitation by wiping the caster's spellbook and quickslots when PI is cast, and copying the PI's remaining spellbook and quickslot item status to the caster when the PI terminates?

[Demivrgvs]

amanasleep wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...

Larkusix wrote...
I know of no mod, that removed the Projected Image's own spell book and let's it use its caster's spellbook instead although that would be the only consistent solution, if you think a solution is needed.

That's because the game engine doesn't allow to do that (else I would have done it), it's a game code limitation.

Demi, is it possible to get around this limitation by wiping the caster's spellbook and quickslots when PI is cast, and copying the PI's remaining spellbook and quickslot item status to the caster when the PI terminates?

Mmm...probably not. I'd need to run quite a long script to do something like that (and I'm not sure I could before tests), and such script should run after the image is destroyed, which is impossible.

Anyway, other than the multiple Planetars issue I think we've already taken PI abuses under control within SR:
- caster becomes invisible upon casting PI (this prevents the Infinite Spell Strategy, but it also is a considerable advantage as it lets you use PI in the midle of a fight)
- the image cannot use items (no scrolls, no quickslot items, no potions, ...)
- the image cannot use innate abilities (cannot shapeshift, nor duplicate triggers or innates, ...)

I'm not sure if I'll do this for SR V4 or Kit Revisions, but sooner or later I'll "fix" even the Planetar exploit, because Summon Planetar like all HLAs will be an innate ability instead of a 9th lvl spell (we obviously don't do this for PI, it's only a welcomed consequence).

I've few other possible tweaks in mind to make PI much more like in PnP (e.g. allowing the image to buff itself only with illusions), but this is probably not the right place to discuss them.

[The Potty 1]

Well now, I think the invisibility thing is brilliant. It makes PI massively more useful, because you can now use it in a fight without a master's degree in the BG2 spell system. I've always preferred to use simulacrum, but now you can legitimately choose between a full strength copy of yourself but be disabled, or a 60% copy and remain active. The simmy is basically a killer summon, and probably stronger in a short fight than an image, which is good given the spell's a level higher. Over a long fight the image is better, because you can dump your high level spells over and over for as many 7 level slots as you have.

[Shadow_Leech07]

The Potty 1 wrote...

Well now, I think the invisibility thing is brilliant. It makes PI massively more useful, because you can now use it in a fight without a master's degree in the BG2 spell system. I've always preferred to use simulacrum, but now you can legitimately choose between a full strength copy of yourself but be disabled, or a 60% copy and remain active. The simmy is basically a killer summon, and probably stronger in a short fight than an image, which is good given the spell's a level higher. Over a long fight the image is better, because you can dump your high level spells over and over for as many 7 level slots as you have.

I think a much better spell to use is that otisuke sphere, I'm sorry I don't know how that is spelled.

[Demivrgvs]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

The Potty 1 wrote...

Well now, I think the invisibility thing is brilliant. It makes PI massively more useful, because you can now use it in a fight without a master's degree in the BG2 spell system. I've always preferred to use simulacrum, but now you can legitimately choose between a full strength copy of yourself but be disabled, or a 60% copy and remain active. The simmy is basically a killer summon, and probably stronger in a short fight than an image, which is good given the spell's a level higher. Over a long fight the image is better, because you can dump your high level spells over and over for as many 7 level slots as you have.

I think a much better spell to use is that otisuke sphere, I'm sorry I don't know how that is spelled.

Are you suggesting to use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere within PI to block the Infinite Spells Strategy? PI is an Illusion spell, thus it's a no for me. Within SR we want to refine the spell system, not to dramatically alter it.

@Potty, I'm glad you like the change.


P.S Otiluke's Resilient Sphere too has been slightly refined as per PnP. Within SR this spell doesn't require a save when cast over an allied character, making it a useful spell to protect a creature in danger.

[Thailog]

Demivrgvs wrote...
P.S Otiluke's Resilient Sphere too has been slightly refined as per PnP. Within SR this spell doesn't require a save when cast over an allied character, making it a useful spell to protect a creature in danger. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

This is awesome!

Several times so far I've tried putting resilient sphere in a contingency to protect my mages from harm when their hit points get dangerously low but they kept saving against it! I'm definitively going to give Spell Revisions a try on my next run. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[Shadow_Leech07]

Demivrgvs wrote...

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

The Potty 1 wrote...

Well now, I think the invisibility thing is brilliant. It makes PI massively more useful, because you can now use it in a fight without a master's degree in the BG2 spell system. I've always preferred to use simulacrum, but now you can legitimately choose between a full strength copy of yourself but be disabled, or a 60% copy and remain active. The simmy is basically a killer summon, and probably stronger in a short fight than an image, which is good given the spell's a level higher. Over a long fight the image is better, because you can dump your high level spells over and over for as many 7 level slots as you have.

I think a much better spell to use is that otisuke sphere, I'm sorry I don't know how that is spelled.

Are you suggesting to use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere within PI to block the Infinite Spells Strategy? PI is an Illusion spell, thus it's a no for me. Within SR we want to refine the spell system, not to dramatically alter it.

@Potty, I'm glad you like the change.


P.S Otiluke's Resilient Sphere too has been slightly refined as per PnP. Within SR this spell doesn't require a save when cast over an allied character, making it a useful spell to protect a creature in danger.

Oh no, that's not what I meant. The Potty spoke of how invisibility(making the caster invisible) dramatically improved the PI spell. I just thought that the otiluke spell would do it much better, because most high level enemies see through invisibility. I mean you can always use both of them(one to block the infinite spells) and the other to avoid enemies. Sanctuary could be another option, but the same enemies which see through invisibility and see sanctuary as well.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

@Shadow_Leech07

I think that would make PI overpowered, essentially turning it into an extra life for the mage.

[Demivrgvs]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

The Potty 1 wrote...

Well now, I think the invisibility thing is brilliant. It makes PI massively more useful, because you can now use it in a fight without a master's degree in the BG2 spell system. ...

I think a much better spell to use is that otisuke sphere, I'm sorry I don't know how that is spelled.

Are you suggesting to use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere within PI to block the Infinite Spells Strategy? PI is an Illusion spell, thus it's a no for me. Within SR we want to refine the spell system, not to dramatically alter it. ...

Oh no, that's not what I meant. The Potty spoke of how invisibility(making the caster invisible) dramatically improved the PI spell. I just thought that the otiluke spell would do it much better, because most high level enemies see through invisibility. I mean you can always use both of them(one to block the infinite spells) and the other to avoid enemies. Sanctuary could be another option, but the same enemies which see through invisibility and see sanctuary as well.

I'm still not sure what are you trying to say, and if you really understood what The Potty said. He said that having PI make the caster invisible makes the spell much more useful on its own, without having you to improve its efficency by using contingency spells to protect the caster when PI is cast.

Thus I guess you are suggesting one the following things:
a) add a Resilient Sphere-like effect within PI
use Resilient Sphere via contingency (trigger when caster is helpless) after casting a vanilla PI
c) something else

And my replies would be:
a) as I said before, PI is an illusion, thus it has to rely only on illusionary effects
we were talking about making PI better on its own, as a single spell. If instead we want to discuss the use of contingencies than yes, Resilient Sphere would protect more than invisibility, but its vanilla's version wouldn't work much because it allowed a save even if self targeted.
c) ...

Extending the discussion a little, as Taifun says using Resilient Sphere to protect the helpless caster of PI would be OP if done with a single 7th lvl spell (PI), but I instead don't mind if it's legitimately done using PI, plus Contingency and Resilient Sphere (a 7th spell, plus a 6th and a 4th). Note though that dispelling the image is far from impossible for a good AI (e.g. SCS), thus using Resilient Sphere is indeed a great combo, but not "perfect", because as soon as the image is gone you'd have your caster still "trapped" in the sphere. Using Improved Invisibility instead of the sphere may actually be a better solution in many circumstances, because if the image is dispelled your caster is able to react, and perhaps he still is under invisibility if the dispelling effect affected the image but not the caster himself.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Demivrgvs wrote...

I'm still not sure what are you trying to say, and if you really understood what The Potty said. He said that having PI make the caster invisible makes the spell much more useful on its own, without having you to improve its efficency by using contingency spells to protect the caster when PI is cast.

The Potty was responding to something you said right here

Anyway, other than the multiple Planetars issue I think we've already taken PI abuses under control within SR:
- [bcaster becomes invisible upon casting PI (this prevents the Infinite Spell Strategy,[b] but it also is a considerable advantage as it lets you use PI in the midle of a fight)[/b]
- the image cannot use items (no scrolls, no quickslot items, no potions, ...)
- the image cannot use innate abilities (cannot shapeshift, nor duplicate triggers or innates, ...)

I'm not sure if I'll do this for SR V4 or Kit Revisions, but sooner or later I'll "fix" even the Planetar exploit, because Summon Planetar like all HLAs will be an innate ability instead of a 9th lvl spell (we obviously don't do this for PI, it's only a welcomed consequence).

I was responding within the context of this particular observation which he had made in response to the statement which I bolded. I was making the case that invisibility would not be very great in a middle of a fight because several enemies will see you. Granting project image invisibility therefore would not really make a difference in the long way. I was attempting to think of better ways to shield the caster so that they may "cast project image in the middle of a battle".

And my replies would be:
a) as I said before, PI is an illusion, thus it has to rely only on illusionary effects
we were talking about making PI better on its own, as a single spell. If instead we want to discuss the use of contingencies than yes, Resilient Sphere would protect more than invisibility, but its vanilla's version wouldn't work much because it allowed a save even if self targeted.

Fair point. There is probably a better spell to use then otiluke sphere.

Extending the discussion a little, as Taifun says using Resilient Sphere to protect the helpless caster of PI would be OP if done with a single 7th lvl spell (PI), but I instead don't mind if it's legitimately done using PI, plus Contingency and Resilient Sphere (a 7th spell, plus a 6th and a 4th). Note though that dispelling the image is far from impossible for a good AI (e.g. SCS), thus using Resilient Sphere is indeed a great combo, but not "perfect", because as soon as the image is gone you'd have your caster still "trapped" in the sphere. Using Improved Invisibility instead of the sphere may actually be a better solution in many circumstances, because if the image is dispelled your caster is able to react, and perhaps he still is under invisibility if the dispelling effect affected the image but not the caster himself.

About it being OP, that's not what I was discussing. I'm not sure if improved invisibility would work either, it has the same problems as invisibility.  High level enemies will see and target you.

[AzureDrag0n1]

You know what though. In most version of D&D there is some combination of spells that is horribly broken. Perhaps even more broken than anything you can do in BG 2. You can exploit the rules in almost any version of D&D.



Some horribly OP combinations that I have heard of are where you add damage to your next spell and use something like farsight or view city or something like that and everything within several miles radius takes spell damage upon everything you see. Turning your divination spell into something like a nuke.



There are other exploits where you can gain infinite stat boosts and cycle through a combination of spells until you reach godhood as a Kobald exploiting a racial property they have.



I can't remember them all but there where so many ways to break the game even in PnP.



So really all these broken spell combinations you can do is just part of D&D in general. That is how I think of it.

[squiros]

wish is a legitimate way of playing the game - working as intended by any definition. it's also easier to use, requiring less total casting if you have high wis. your limitation of using offensive spells is meaningless, since you're stopping the inefficient exploit, when the easier legitimate method is preferred. most cleric/mages will have wis at 18 anyway, more after lum.

having the PI use the shapechange you cast is an exploit. . . but the difference of having a pi cast it themselves really isn't that big - it's 1 round, in the age of vecna's alacrity, insignificant.

what about the secondary effects? the stoneskin lacrums from the pi that can tank while the images cast? or the pi of a pi that can make the pi essentially last several turns and free up the original caster? are they legit or exploits?